Who would have a better options at soloing with a merc? Consider that both the real cleric and the real warrior have say level 85 with 1200AA's and T5 gear and a J5 merc.
The Real Warrior with a merc cleric
The Real cleric with a merc warrior
Merc tanks = Overpowered at low levels, garbage at 85.
Given the topic line, I'm going to assume you already have an idea in mind as to which you think is better (and the other getting screwed...) so lets hear that first to avoid pointless speculations =)
RebelVT wrote:
Who would have a better options at soloing with a merc? Consider that both the real cleric and the real warrior have say level 85 with 1200AA's and T5 gear and a J5 merc.The Real Warrior with a merc clericThe Real cleric with a merc warrior
The question is pointless since a "real cleric" would have a cleric merc and tank themselves.
I would argue that the mercs are called "tank" and "healer" for a reason. Even if they use some of the abilities of those respective classes, their essential existence is within that role, not as that class. Therefore, the merc is a tank, not a warrior, and lacks the offensive potential of said warrior. A healer merc is not a cleric, and lacks the offensive/tanking potential of said cleric. Since at the group/solo level overpowering mobs with huge offense is a far better strategy than wearing them down with massive defense, the only one of those two combos that actually has DPS will be the one with an offensive class (the warrior + healer merc), and as a result they will be more effective. Of course, this is also, in part, due to the fact that a melee (like a warrior) gains much more strength from gear than a caster or priest. The solution is not to alter either of the current mercenaries, but rather implement the DPS mercenaries, which are already being worked on as we speak. The healing and tanking roles are covered and merely need to be rounded out with DPS.
A soloing warrior wishes for a healer, he can take hits and dish them out, but he needs to stay up. A soloing cleric, though, doesn't wish for a tank. He can take hits and heal himself, he wants DPS to make it go faster.
In short, Warrior + healer are a match, but Cleric + tank are not.
doesnt that answer the question rather then render it pointless. The Tank merc should be able to tank better then a cleric
Tieniman wrote:
The Tank merc should be able to tank better then a cleric
I don't think it can. I don't play with many low end clerics with group gear and low AA's though so I may be wrong in this instance.
It does..up to about level 70??..or so. After that i am guessing the clerics AA and gear make up the difference and it switches.
Caidoz wrote:
Difference of opinion there. I have a T5J tank merc and think its solid. The merc has tanked all trash and every group named in OBF, CoD, and Korafax with zero problems whatsoever. The T5J cleric merc keeps him up just fine with zero druid assist on nearly any trash. The merc tanks 2 yellow con trash simultaneously with some additional splash heals. Same with named mobs, I toss some extra heals from the druid and he tanks named effortlessly. Not at all a garbage tank.
Tulisin_Dragonflame wrote:
The solution is not to alter either of the current mercenaries, but rather implement the DPS mercenaries, which are already being worked on as we speak. The healing and tanking roles are covered and merely need to be rounded out with DPS.A soloing warrior wishes for a healer, he can take hits and dish them out, but he needs to stay up. A soloing cleric, though, doesn't wish for a tank. He can take hits and heal himself, he wants DPS to make it go faster.
The solution is not to alter either of the current mercenaries, but rather implement the DPS mercenaries, which are already being worked on as we speak. The healing and tanking roles are covered and merely need to be rounded out with DPS.
Personally I think it would be easier AND make more sense to increase the DPS of the tank merc. It does not need to be as high as a 1500AA fully T5 group geared warrior but it should be more than what it is now. This is to make the war + merc and cleric+merc a bit more equal. While it is true that clerics wear plate, a group geared cleric is NOT going to tank as good as either a group geared warrior OR the tank merc. By increasing the tank merc DPS a bit the cleric + tank merc combo becomes closer to the abilities of a warrior + healer merc.
This is what is know as a leading question.
My nothing special group uses a tank merc to kill nameds in Kora. Would I like better? Heck yeah. Can it be done. Oh - yeah. Is it as good as it should be? Meh, probably not.
In answer to the question, the PC Tank with the Cleric merc is much >>>>> than PC CLeric and the Tank merc. No question about it, but whats ur point
Who said it was supposed to be fair in such a closed comparison?
Lotharun wrote:
Caidoz wrote:Merc tanks = Overpowered at low levels, garbage at 85.My nothing special group uses a tank merc to kill nameds in Kora. Would I like better? Heck yeah. Can it be done. Oh - yeah. Is it as good as it should be? Meh, probably not.
Touche, I forgot they upgraded them a while back. I haven't used one since early on, and at that point a T5 tank was a pain to keep up in FoS even.
Tobynn wrote:
Caidoz wrote:Merc tanks = Overpowered at low levels, garbage at 85.Difference of opinion there. I have a T5J tank merc and think its solid. The merc has tanked all trash and every group named in OBF, CoD, and Korafax with zero problems whatsoever. The T5J cleric merc keeps him up just fine with zero druid assist on nearly any trash. The merc tanks 2 yellow con trash simultaneously with some additional splash heals. Same with named mobs, I toss some extra heals from the druid and he tanks named effortlessly. Not at all a garbage tank.
Your T5 mercs seems much better than mine then. Mine has been killed in Tosk with 1 white con Sentinal and 1 DB con Sentinal beating on him while 2 T5 healer mercs were healing him(one on balanced and one on reactive). Now his untimely death was mostly due to the merc being a dumbarse and breaking mezes, and thus trying to tank both. Also the yellow con named in Tosk come very close to killing him just about every time and do occasionaly succeede. Oh and the yellow con crystal mobs around the lake in Warrens pretty much obliterate him.
Someone else mentioned they upgraded them, do you have to rebuy them to get the upgrade?
BlankChatName wrote:
From the title, I'd have figured that it was a rant about necros getting less use from mercs than anyone else.
I'd think necros get a better boost than wizards but /shrug.
Regarding the prior upgrade of the merc tanks:
Initially, the merc tank was godawful imo. My druid tanked about as well as that thing did. I had that original incarnation of the merc tank for about 2 days before I said screw this and scrapped it for a 2nd cleric merc instead. A short time after merc tanks were reworked a bit, I bought a tank once again and the difference was quite simply astounding.
First merc tanks = sux. Current merc tanks = hellabetter.
-Lynk_Dead- wrote:
BlankChatName wrote:From the title, I'd have figured that it was a rant about necros getting less use from mercs than anyone else.I'd think necros get a better boost than wizards but /shrug.
True, at least the merc could buff the dot pet. Of course it was really a dig at yet another 'oh noes, the poor clerics!' thread, not meant seriously
Your T5 mercs seems much better than mine then.
To clarify things, I box a druid+tank and beastlord+cleric. That being said, the mobs I'm killing are always slowed, frequently stunned by pet procs, and typically attack debuffed when its a named. So, its not as if I'm just wrecking the place using only a druid plus merc tank.
and ill ask you? why not be fair?
-Lynk_Dead- wrote:Your T5 mercs seems much better than mine then.To clarify things, I box a druid+tank and beastlord+cleric. That being said, the mobs I'm killing are always slowed, frequently stunned by pet procs, and typically attack debuffed when its a named. So, its not as if I'm just wrecking the place using only a druid plus merc tank.
I 3 box a zerker, a chanter, and a druid. So all mobs are chanter slowed and have 2 druid ATK debuffs stacked on them. I use a T5 tank and 2 T5 healers, yet the crystaline mobs in Warrens kill the tank about 30% of the time and I have to finish tanking with my zerk. These are not even the named mobs.
What do you expect with that 3 box combo Lynk?
Zerker,Chanter, Druid with cleric merc buffs. Not exactly ideal for a warrior mercs needs. Warrior mercs need all the same buffs that real warriors need. I don't see any shaman buffs in there.
I duo'd with a Beastlord and Druid with warrior and cleric merc and had all the good buffs covered. My warrior merc was great at tanking. I can see why yours falls short.
Perhaps you should 3 box less and make some real friends. Maybe a shaman
I am a Cleric.
I used the Warrior merc, but his DPS sucks really bad, and kills go faster if I solo.
So, I grabbed a Cleric merc, so I could be lazy and just melee. But noo! His agro skills are far superiour to mine. Stupid Spell Casting Subtelty.
mofabulous wrote:
What do you expect with that 3 box combo Lynk?Zerker,Chanter, Druid with cleric merc buffs. Not exactly ideal for a warrior mercs needs. Warrior mercs need all the same buffs that real warriors need. I don't see any shaman buffs in there.I duo'd with a Beastlord and Druid with warrior and cleric merc and had all the good buffs covered. My warrior merc was great at tanking. I can see why yours falls short. Perhaps you should 3 box less and make some real friends. Maybe a shaman
So you telling me your stories of 2 boxing using mercs in Crushbone is supposed to somehow persuade me to group with some random person?
Oh and no way does beastlord buffs make that big of a differnce. Not between tanking 2 Korfax mobs and living to dying to a single Warrens mob. So get over yourself.
Crushbone? I just got back. Maybe I dont get it.
I would argue that the mercs are called "tank" and "healer" for a reason. Even if they use some of the abilities of those respective classes, their essential existence is within that role, not as that class. Therefore, the merc is a tank, not a warrior, and lacks the offensive potential of said warrior. A healer merc is not a cleric, and lacks the offensive/tanking potential of said cleric. Since at the group/solo level overpowering mobs with huge offense is a far better strategy than wearing them down with massive defense, the only one of those two combos that actually has DPS will be the one with an offensive class (the warrior + healer merc), and as a result they will be more effective. Of course, this is also, in part, due to the fact that a melee (like a warrior) gains much more strength from gear than a caster or priest. The solution is not to alter either of the current mercenaries, but rather implement the DPS mercenaries, which are already being worked on as we speak. The healing and tanking roles are covered and merely need to be rounded out with DPS.A soloing warrior wishes for a healer, he can take hits and dish them out, but he needs to stay up. A soloing cleric, though, doesn't wish for a tank. He can take hits and heal himself, he wants DPS to make it go faster.In short, Warrior + healer are a match, but Cleric + tank are not.
Last response from a Dev was that the idea of creating a dps merc has not even reached the discussion stage, let alone crestion process. Where are you getting this already being worked on info from?
Lanlastone wrote:
They're coming out with the patch that includes 70+ shrouds, new leader aa's, and the Plane of War.
Yes Lynk buffs make a difference.
I knew you'd get defensive over the making real friends comment, but seriously... buffs help. Thats how game is played my arch enemy
Wildeone wrote:
My sig has disturbing manboob artistry.
I was recently finishing the fos tasks so i could farm instances for guildies progression/etc and a chanter friend had a t4 and i had my t4 cleric both lvl 83 at the time. we took out 4 of ganaks guards w/o me having to try to tank any and didnt even slow them.
The other night at 85 with t5 mercs we killed thesila and 3 adds with me, enc, t4 cler and tank. none were mezzed.
Ive also been in t5 zones doing armor with merc tanks and never had a problem either except for occasional agro snag and a caster dieing
Tobynn wrote:-Lynk_Dead- wrote:Your T5 mercs seems much better than mine then.To clarify things, I box a druid+tank and beastlord+cleric. That being said, the mobs I'm killing are always slowed, frequently stunned by pet procs, and typically attack debuffed when its a named. So, its not as if I'm just wrecking the place using only a druid plus merc tank.I 3 box a zerker, a chanter, and a druid. So all mobs are chanter slowed and have 2 druid ATK debuffs stacked on them. I use a T5 tank and 2 T5 healers, yet the crystaline mobs in Warrens kill the tank about 30% of the time and I have to finish tanking with my zerk. These are not even the named mobs.
Funny that... I used T4 tank for that exact same content not long ago. Crystallines, along with nameds. That tank never died, not once. It did just fine tbh.
the only problem you will ever really have, with sufficient healing, with a t4 or 5 merc is the initial spike on t5 mobs before the merc activates a disc. Ive never seen one die from it but it has gotten close if the mob is particularly tough with melee or ae stuff. After that initial arse handling the merc will almost immediately hit fortitude or fs like any real war would have done on inc if they knew it was a tough mob.
and to the above poster, your healers are not on the ball if they can keep a berserker up but not a war, even if it is undergeared.
I like when the merc clerics dont heal you, you die then charge you an upkeep cost before they rez you.
Tonnk just killed you....
you was just charged an upkeep of 80 plat....
Seasilla casts a 96% rez on you.....
I feel so used at that point
Draghin
Wistyr wrote:
I like when the merc clerics dont heal you, you die then charge you an upkeep cost before they rez you.Tonnk just killed you....you was just charged an upkeep of 80 plat....Seasilla casts a 96% rez on you.....I feel so used at that pointDraghin
Haha yep, gotta love those greedy mercs. I was told that it may be due to the upkeep tick interferring with the normal operation of the merc AI. My other 2 personal favorites are when they cure rabies instead of healing you when you have 5 or more dark blue to yellow con mobs beating on you. That's a lovely one. The number one thing I love about them - 2 mercs in group and none of them heal me no matter what their stance is and despite the fact that I am not marked puller (I was marked tank but then I took it off, toggled everything and still no heals). I was also well within range of them.
With that said, when did they rework the merc? I had a tank merc about 2 or so months ago and it sucked. I tanked 100% better than it did. I had far less AC than I do now and I didn't have max defensives. Plus the merc would blow discs on trash if it got quadded.
-§ir
Cylint_Nyte wrote:
Months and months ago - might well have been late last year. I only used a tank before the revamp, and was seriously disappointed back then (level 81/82 J1 tank in MG splatting on every double pull).
