while Im not sure what the worst class would be I would have to say necros arent so hot in group content lately. I dropped my 85/1300 necro and rerolled a mage back in april whos currently 85/451.
i play war/clr/bst/zerk/mage/necro/bard for reference.
minimind wrote:
Hatsee wrote:minimind wrote:Am I crazy? Does my raid have EQ's best beastlord ever? How can people call beastlord the worst in raids?You raid demiplane at level 85I do?
Hatsee wrote:
minimind wrote:Am I crazy? Does my raid have EQ's best beastlord ever? How can people call beastlord the worst in raids?You raid demiplane at level 85
Am I crazy? Does my raid have EQ's best beastlord ever? How can people call beastlord the worst in raids?
You raid demiplane at level 85
I do?
Sure, why not.
Lelaa wrote:
Worst Group: Cleric Worst Raid: Paladin
wow... just... wow.the level to which people's perception of this game has gone completely off the rails is truly staggering. putting 'cleric' as the worst group class truly says far more about the person saying that than it does about the class.but, i digress...
to answer the OP: the 6 boxer had no idea what he was talking about, aside from 6 boxing - and i'll grant you that paladins suck for 6 boxing. however, in reality-land where some of us like to live, paladins are quite awesome at the roles that paladins are designed to fulfill.
as for a 'worst' class in the game, that's going to be very largely dependent on your personal perception and experience bias with the quality of players for those classes that you know, but by and large i'd personally say (and again, this is 100% a product of my personal bias, i'm not stating this as objective fact):
group: bardraid: druid
Survey_ wrote:
Worst Solo: RogueWorst Group: NecroWorst Raid: Beastlord
Worst Solo: Rogue
Worst Group: Necro
Worst Raid: Beastlord
I'd disagree with the third... Worst Raid: Necro.
With the introduction of powermedding (lich and twitch), guild lobby (corpse summon) and guild portal/banner (necro rez w/FD), necros add nothing but pure sustained DPS (not even the porting of wizzies or CoH of mages) to raids.
Add that many modern raid encounters require DPS on/off mechanics, which can't be done with Necro dots, or they require high burst DPS, the Necro DPS is a distant last indesirability.
Every raiding guild has at least one necro for the odd event. But not many guilds have more than a couple.
Beastlords, on the other hand, use their Paragon line all the time for many events and are usually part of the off-tanking squads.
But I am happy with my Necro, I enjoy grouping with the regulars.
However, to answer the OP's original questdion: What is the worst class? The answer is almost universally "mine". (not necros, but whatever the class of the speaker is).
It is not the nature of EQ, it is the nature of this board.
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:
Survey_ wrote:Worst Solo: RogueWorst Group: NecroWorst Raid: BeastlordI'd disagree with the third... Worst Raid: Necro.With the introduction of powermedding (lich and twitch), guild lobby (corpse summon) and guild portal/banner (necro rez w/FD), necros add nothing but pure sustained DPS (not even the porting of wizzies or CoH of mages) to raids.Add that many modern raid encounters require DPS on/off mechanics, which can't be done with Necro dots, or they require high burst DPS, the Necro DPS is a distant last indesirability.Every raiding guild has at least one necro for the odd event. But not many guilds have more than a couple. Beastlords, on the other hand, use their Paragon line all the time for many events and are usually part of the off-tanking squads. But I am happy with my Necro, I enjoy grouping with the regulars. However, to answer the OP's original questdion: What is the worst class? The answer is almost universally "mine". (not necros, but whatever the class of the speaker is).It is not the nature of EQ, it is the nature of this board.
No, you're wrong etc.
I realize its your experience.... but aren't druids usually the ones healing everyone else while the clerics are busy healing the main tank? What makes druids useless on raids other than an overabundance of them?
Richard wrote:
Yoscorio wrote:Lots of classes will never top a parse, but beastlords do just fine in my guild (tower on farm). We have 2 active beastlords, and if one gets into a melee dps group they'll be in the top 6 or 7... probably beating some rangers who are also in dps groups. This is what I am curious about. When the Bst/Rng is in a DPS group, what is edge of Rog/Zerker over those Bst/Rng?In burst and sustained fights?I am not doing SoD raids (past the junior ones) and I am curious about the high enders.My theroy is if (ie) a Rogue is (ie) 10% ahead of Rangers on burns and behind Rangers on Sustained fights, it seems like the Rogue is the most screwed class in EQ and this is a result of parses having so much weight in the devs eyes. Everything else, track, Range DPS, Taunt, Mitigation, Sustained fights, heals, Buffs, CC, Cures, Pulling, Entire spellbook, rear arc etc, mean nothing.*I understand that weapons, skill, AA can vary, however you can usually account for this in your estimates.
Yoscorio wrote:
Lots of classes will never top a parse, but beastlords do just fine in my guild (tower on farm). We have 2 active beastlords, and if one gets into a melee dps group they'll be in the top 6 or 7... probably beating some rangers who are also in dps groups.
This is what I am curious about. When the Bst/Rng is in a DPS group, what is edge of Rog/Zerker over those Bst/Rng?
In burst and sustained fights?I am not doing SoD raids (past the junior ones) and I am curious about the high enders.
My theroy is if (ie) a Rogue is (ie) 10% ahead of Rangers on burns and behind Rangers on Sustained fights, it seems like the Rogue is the most screwed class in EQ and this is a result of parses having so much weight in the devs eyes. Everything else, track, Range DPS, Taunt, Mitigation, Sustained fights, heals, Buffs, CC, Cures, Pulling, Entire spellbook, rear arc etc, mean nothing.
*I understand that weapons, skill, AA can vary, however you can usually account for this in your estimates.
Our beasts seem to top out around 9k~ when in a bard group. Our rogues are significantly ahead of that on same events.
tearsin wrote:
Lelaa wrote:Worst Group: Cleric Worst Raid: Paladinwow... just... wow.the level to which people's perception of this game has gone completely off the rails is truly staggering. putting 'cleric' as the worst group class truly says far more about the person saying that than it does about the class.but, i digress...to answer the OP: the 6 boxer had no idea what he was talking about, aside from 6 boxing - and i'll grant you that paladins suck for 6 boxing. however, in reality-land where some of us like to live, paladins are quite awesome at the roles that paladins are designed to fulfill.as for a 'worst' class in the game, that's going to be very largely dependent on your personal perception and experience bias with the quality of players for those classes that you know, but by and large i'd personally say (and again, this is 100% a product of my personal bias, i'm not stating this as objective fact):group: bardraid: druid
While I also do not agree with the cleric being the worst, Same could be said about your choice for Bard in the group setting. Imo, a well played bard trumps all other classes in the group setting.
The problem is how to define "best" vs "worst". That is the crux of the entire class conflict.
Weighing benefits and penalties of each class.. how do you compare Wizard ports against Necromancer FD?
Your 6-boxer values DPS primarily. Most grinders and min/maxers do.
Roleplayers put their weight in yet other categories.
Tradeskillers might prefer yet others.
So you have to really define your personal parameters (I know various people have posted some), but even then that is personal to them and there are a lot of subjective decisions (e.g. ports vs fd).
There are also "hands on" classes, that require a great deal of interaction to make them work and "hands off" classes that require less interaction. If you're boxing, you need more of the latter and fewer (well, no more than one) of the former, simply because it becomes too hectic to control everything.
Personally, I play a Necro (which is a very hands-on class). My old main was a Paladin (named Klonn), which is sort of a "hands off" class (let's not bicker details here - you know what i mean). I like them both, I love to role play them both (and they are direct opposites), neither is particularly good at tradeskills (Shammies, Rogues, Chanters are more tradeskill friendly classes).
I am certainly no min/maxer, I like utility over DPS. To me, skill playing the toon, knowing how to apply your class' strengths and avoid its weaknesses makes a TOON strong. I know tremendously skilled players in every class (except wizards, who generally suck ).
So I can only respond tot he question of most or least "desirable" as a class, not "funnest to play" or "best" or "worst".
Grrrrf wrote:
yeah well paladin class sux, this is nothing new.No tanking advantage, warrior mitigate much better, sk have more way to mitigate dmg (so much for being the defensive knight).Our healing sucks, fact that our 1sec heal heals now for much less than a sk LT, and we only get access to 85% focus while sk get 90% and can double crit.Our curing has stagnated, and is only okis to cure yourself.Rez farmed to everyone.Stun mitigated by everything over lvl cap, and many immune mob under cap.Brell LINE has become a drop in the bucket.Paladin s LIVE(2Kish burn) and undead dps(4k5ish burn) is so lame, that not attacking barely make a diff, when sk druid etc and other non dps class just dps more than us by a good margin on undead, and do triple our dps on live, something is seriously broken.List could go on, but heh, why bother....The only decent ability a paladin have nowadays is LoH.
yeah well paladin class sux, this is nothing new.
No tanking advantage, warrior mitigate much better, sk have more way to mitigate dmg (so much for being the defensive knight).
Our healing sucks, fact that our 1sec heal heals now for much less than a sk LT, and we only get access to 85% focus while sk get 90% and can double crit.
Our curing has stagnated, and is only okis to cure yourself.
Rez farmed to everyone.
Stun mitigated by everything over lvl cap, and many immune mob under cap.
Brell LINE has become a drop in the bucket.
Paladin s LIVE(2Kish burn) and undead dps(4k5ish burn) is so lame, that not attacking barely make a diff, when sk druid etc and other non dps class just dps more than us by a good margin on undead, and do triple our dps on live, something is seriously broken.
List could go on, but heh, why bother....
The only decent ability a paladin have nowadays is LoH.
Sound about right.
I d say for paladin
group : while not being best tank, we can do the job, but that s bout it, we dont really bring anything else useful.
Solo: used to be one of best soloer at some point, we re now far down that ladder.
Raid : we re mostly useless, apart from brell, which doesnt add much anyway.
I disagree, and think this is a cop out. I prefer FD. I guess most would, every ability has a value, it can be contested but there is a general value to an ability.I mean, no one would prefer picklock to FD.
A developer should have a spreadsheet with all the abilities and a weight assigned to each.Every point a player made could be added.The developers would obviously have to assign a value to each ability.
*It should be roughly 40 times longer then this.
RaidDPS - BurnDPS SustainedTankHealSpot HealBuffCCScoutingOff TankPullingKitingSurvivabilityRezz
GroupDPS - BurnDPS SustainedTankHealSpot HealBuffCCScoutingOff TankPullingQuestTransportSurvivabilityRezz
considering he is boxing, its a fair assumption that the chars are not gonna be raid geared (not all of em anyways) and they probably will be a bit behind most grpers because of distribution.
Honestly from what ive seen you are better of focusing on the classes you do have than dragging 6 toons around to accomplish the mediocre.
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Weighing benefits and penalties of each class.. how do you compare Wizard ports against Necromancer FD?I disagree, and think this is a cop out. I prefer FD. I guess most would, every ability has a value, it can be contested but there is a general value to an ability.I mean, no one would prefer picklock to FD.A developer should have a spreadsheet with all the abilities and a weight assigned to each.Every point a player made could be added.The developers would obviously have to assign a value to each ability.*It should be roughly 40 times longer then this.RaidDPS - BurnDPS SustainedTankHealSpot HealBuffCCScoutingOff TankPullingKitingSurvivabilityRezzGroupDPS - BurnDPS SustainedTankHealSpot HealBuffCCScoutingOff TankPullingQuestTransportSurvivabilityRezz
No, not really.
Gee, thanks for taking an example and applying it as gospel.
Lots love evac/succor and consider it way more important to group benefit than FD.
I'd disagree with your list of priorities, big time, but that's stating my opinion, which is no more important than yours. Unlike you, I do not consider my opinion to be the right one, only just another informed opinion, since I don't think there is a right one.
GroupSurvivability (dead=useless)HealTankCCDPS - Burn/sustainedPulling
Off TankTransport
"Enhancement" (auras/songs)
Spot HealScoutingQuestBuffRezz
We already know that the devs already have such a "spreadsheet" that they use to compare classes. However, we do not know what is on it, since it doesn't reflect community feelings and does show things we cannot see, like class innates and class populations (popularity). We might also disagree with some of the settings on that spreadsheet because they are based on real, systemwide, numbers, rather than on individual experiences, word of mouth, or warped parses (there have been many).
starrgazer wrote:
once again putting heavy emphasis on the fact that this opinion is a product of my experience and unique guild makeup, but we have a fairly decent body of clerics (5-8 per raid, or more) and only a handful of druids (i think maybe 3-4 per raid) and by and large i've personally found (as both a raid leader, and as an sk assigned to OT duties of all kinds, through all content in the game from original release through clearing tower) that generally speaking druids are inadequate as OT healers, due to their lack of 'oh shite' healing ability.
DA, epic, HoTs, PR, and their combination of fast heals and big heals just allow so much more flexibility to (well played) clerics that there's just no comparison between them and druids in term of effectiveness.now i'm fully willing to concede that i know some fugging AWESOME clerics, and have never really known what i'd call a well played druid, which is why i'm so insistant on the whole 'in my experience, this is NOT me stating fact' thing.
to fyst:bards are, by their nature, complimentary. my utter lack of interest in them as a class (they're in the top 4 list for me of classes i would never ever invite to a group unless i couldn't find *anybody* else, along with war/pal, necro, and druid) has to do mostly with how my groups are designed - me (sk), cleric, shm, mage, rogue, berserker - all tower geared.we don't need CC because i'm strong enough as a tank, with a good enough healer, and enough DPS i can just pull, and not care how many come. in the few instances where i DO need to control a pull, sks can single pull just as well as any other class. i recognize their myriad uses and how they can add DPS (which is why i rank them MUCH higher for raids than i do for groups) but they're quite useless to the way i run around when grouping. which, not to beat a dead horse here, comes back to the whole personal bias thing.
boukk_sebilis wrote:
like basically everything else you ever say, this is so wrong that it's frankly comical.
also, to address the other thing in the post that is quoted in the post i'm quoting...shining light vs. touch of tharoff, trying to say that touch is better shows either a total lack of understanding of how EQ works, or a blatant attempt to play the victim.
Rk 2:1909 heal, 1 second cast time, 624 mana, 5 second recastvs2012 heal, 1.5 second cast time, 1019 mana, 12 second recast
that's just base - and 85% focus vs. 95% focus is irrelevant due to the nature of how focus effects work, and the fact that you have the healing adept line. also, that's your 1 second spell, not considering burst or devout. ToT is the only tap we get per expansion cycle - you get 3, and all of them have either a much better ratio, or a much better heal output.heals and taps are, IMO, fairly reasonably well balanced - your heals are better, our taps are dps. give over already.
As a Paladin, I haven't used a cleric as a healer since TSS. Even with their lack of "ohsnap" healing, they are capable of holding their own quite well. Granted, as a Paladin, I have heals at my disposal that compensate for the lack of emergency healing in Burst, LoH, HoP, Deflection, etc.
You're right on the aspect that clerics have a wealth of healing flexibility that neither druids or shaman can make up for and when things are at their worst, clerics shine. But yeah, it's all in how classes interact as a whole, personal bias, as well as personal skill with certain classes.
Wyvernwill wrote:
As a Paladin, I haven't used a cleric as a healer since TSS. Even with their lack of "ohsnap" healing, they are capable of holding their own quite well. Granted, as a Paladin, I have heals at my disposal that compensate for the lack of emergency healing in Burst, LoH, HoP, Deflection, etc.You're right on the aspect that clerics have a wealth of healing flexibility that neither druids or shaman can make up for and when things are at their worst, clerics shine. But yeah, it's all in how classes interact as a whole, personal bias, as well as personal skill with certain classes.
absolutely - and i know that a large part of my personal love of clerics (and subsequent 'meh' attitude towards druids as healers) comes from my playstyle, which has always been 'push it as hard as it can possibly go and see if we live.'i can do the whole pull-and-kill grind of 1-3 mobs per pull for about 20 minutes before my eyes glaze over. if i'm not nearly dying every pull and making my 32k mana cleric go OOM every other pull, i'm not trying hard enough (which, incidentally, is also why i've never used a merc as a healer, and never will).
Brogett wrote:
RaidTricky one. People suggested beastlords and that's probably reasonable. Then again I have to think - hybrid "jack of all trades" class... did you expect it to excel in any one specific area, more than others? The fact is the min/max-ers out there won't like beastlords as there's always a class that is better than them at whatever role you're trying to fit. So maybe they need a bit of tweaking, but it's not massively broken IMO. I don't think it's a coincidence though that the recent data-mining of eqplayers showed necros and rogues as losing ground fast in the number of active players, with beastlords relatively low on a percentage played too. The facts sort of speak for themselves there.
Raid
Tricky one. People suggested beastlords and that's probably reasonable. Then again I have to think - hybrid "jack of all trades" class... did you expect it to excel in any one specific area, more than others? The fact is the min/max-ers out there won't like beastlords as there's always a class that is better than them at whatever role you're trying to fit. So maybe they need a bit of tweaking, but it's not massively broken IMO.
I don't think it's a coincidence though that the recent data-mining of eqplayers showed necros and rogues as losing ground fast in the number of active players, with beastlords relatively low on a percentage played too. The facts sort of speak for themselves there.
The problem is that modern raids don't have a use for being a jack of all trades. You're either a dps, tank, healer, or (sometimes) mezzer in pretty much every raid. Being a little bit dps, little bit tank, and little bit healer makes you one big pile of useless to a raid. That's why you see so many of us hybrids clamoring to be competitive dps, because we know our utility just isn't helpful on 95% of events. It's not because every hybrid out there really wants to be dps, but they've recognized the pattern of modern raids that dps > everything else.
It's kind of a hard problem to fix. Either raids need to be designed to make utility more useful (which seems difficult) or hybrids need to be kept close to pures in dps. On the flip side, I think it then becomes fair for the pures to start catching up to hybrids in utilities. On the downside, every class starts to look the same. It's an ugly mess.
As far as pallies go, I don't think they're that bad. I'm not a tank, so this is just an outsider looking in, but I'd wager that the biggest problem with pallies right now is that they don't seem quite as good as their partner class, the SK.
Every paladin that posted in this thread whining about how bad paladins suck need to delete and reroll. They are the same group of paladins that constantly whine about how bad paladins suck etc etc etc about just about everything. Paladins are far from the worst class, and the "worst tank" is highly debateable as its greatly dependent on the mechanics of the content you are trying to box/solo/group/raid.
I will repeat what I posted on the paladins forums about what paladins need to maintain a good balance:
1) A decent boost to sustained dps against all target types, still under SK and warriors, but better than it is by far
2) A targetable cure for corruption that doesn't stink, a single target version of expiation for example
3) A disc or aa that lets us burst dps something halfway respectable compared to equivalent geared tanks (less than war/sk, but not 40% of them) - something that works on undead as well
4) Better group healing in terms of efficiency
We really do not "need" anything else. Lots of things that any sane person would "want", but that's not the same thing.
As to paladins, they are fine soloers on undead, and reasonable on live mobs. It just requires playing smart and not going to korafax and whining that your exp rate sucks with you and a merc cleric trying to solo. I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily, and add in a shaman out of group and its way more. Heck, you have paladins (some in top end raid gear) talking about "3 aa on a lesson burn solo", and I let 5 other characters leech off me and get 4+ aa on lesson still. We are not bad soloers. We have extremely good survival and it should be taken advantage of by mass pulling light blues and using damage shield and riposte to good advantage.
Paladins are also perfectly fine in groups. I cannot imagine anyone saying otherwise. It really boggles the mind. Some people just want god mode I guess.
For raids, yes, we do stink at this point in current content against comparably geared/aa other classes. The things I stated we need would help alleviate that a lot. Giving paladins back their group heal/curing raid role we had from luclin through TBS would be nice.
Fyndal wrote:
why do you feel paladins are having problems at the raid level?coming from the perspective of an sk, i've never seen paladins as my competitor, but rather my companion - they can do things i can't, and vice versa.looking at, just for example, SoF and SoD raiding - there isn't an extremely high volume of 'cluster' adds (like there were in TBS and TSS, for example) on various events, so the one serious advantage sks have over paladins is largely (though not completely, since some events do have them) mitigated - and in SoF in particular, being able to stun-mitigate raid targets to 0 dps is HUGE, and allows pallies total dominance as the OT tank for those events.
i've always found it kind of odd that a vocal part of the paladin community wants to turn the paladin raid role into being basically a cleric bot, doing inefficient heals and casting cures on people and nothing else. what you guys really need to do is stand up, bitchslap the jackarsed morons in the SK community who killed directed force, and get yourself some reliable on-demand AE capability.
boukk_sebilis wrote:Raid : we re mostly useless, apart from brell, which doesnt add much anyway.like basically everything else you ever say, this is so wrong that it's frankly comical.also, to address the other thing in the post that is quoted in the post i'm quoting...shining light vs. touch of tharoff, trying to say that touch is better shows either a total lack of understanding of how EQ works, or a blatant attempt to play the victim.Rk 2:1909 heal, 1 second cast time, 624 mana, 5 second recastvs2012 heal, 1.5 second cast time, 1019 mana, 12 second recastthat's just base - and 85% focus vs. 95% focus is irrelevant due to the nature of how focus effects work, and the fact that you have the healing adept line. also, that's your 1 second spell, not considering burst or devout. ToT is the only tap we get per expansion cycle - you get 3, and all of them have either a much better ratio, or a much better heal output.heals and taps are, IMO, fairly reasonably well balanced - your heals are better, our taps are dps. give over already.
You re just full of it.
Your tap arent linked, and all SK i know use 3 LT.
Mana is a non issue, going oom is very hard nowaday, you also dont have to switch target to heal yourself, which alone, if a huge timeloss, that doesnt even make up for the cast time advantage.
The fact that proc + lt considered can self heal as well as a pal , and in the mean time , are able to deal 3x more dps, is pure bs.
However you want to twist it, paladin are useless in raid, there s no role where you NEEd a paladin.
Sk are = single aggro, infinitly better AE aggro, got a huge aggro ability (HT),Big dps,have more mitigation mean etc.
There s no role a paladin can have that a class cant do better.
Ofc i am not surprise that you call that fairly balanced, since you ve been asking dev along with xanathol for year to have equal self healing to paladin without losing on any other side, dps, or utility.
OO Tearsin doing some preemtive trolling for the upcoming beta?
Stop posting on EQlive seriously, your idioty isn't needed there, keep that for that ret4rd hole that is EGN.
Gee, thanks for taking an example and applying it as gospel.Lots love evac/succor and consider it way more important to group benefit than FD.I'd disagree with your list of priorities, big time, but that's stating my opinion, which is no more important than yours. Unlike you, I do not consider my opinion to be the right one, only just another informed opinion, since I don't think there is a right one.GroupSurvivability (dead=useless)HealTankCCDPS - Burn/sustainedPullingOff TankTransport"Enhancement" (auras/songs)Spot HealScoutingQuestBuffRezzWe already know that the devs already have such a "spreadsheet" that they use to compare classes. However, we do not know what is on it, since it doesn't reflect community feelings and does show things we cannot see, like class innates and class populations (popularity). We might also disagree with some of the settings on that spreadsheet because they are based on real, systemwide, numbers, rather than on individual experiences, word of mouth, or warped parses (there have been many).
I was not clear. I am saying that there are a bunch of abilities that go into balance. As I said, the list should be 40 times longer then what I supplied. My list was in no order at all, just off the top of my head. If there was a way I could post a spreadsheet I would explain further.
Regarding your comments.I was comparing transport spells to FD. (My opinion is most would value FD more if they had a choice to pick an ability)I put succor in a different category as it is not primariliy used for transport.
I dont know what you meant by survivability dead=useless.I was saying that one of the things you put into balance is survivability. There are classes that have more or less survival skills. FD, Escape. There is another category for deaggro. Etc In this area I think (for DPS) Monk>Rogue>Zerker.
I also keep burn and sustained seperate. Then you assign a value to each, and give each class a score in each ability.
One part of one line of the spreadsheet would like this.
Cleric Druid Ranger Bst ZerkerHeals 42% 10 8 2 2 0Transport 4% 2 9 2 2 0
So each ability gets a percent, then each class gets a score.So dominating in heal will be more important then dominating in transport.
Again, I am just showing a format, I am not valuing anything for real. I dont believe they have a spreadsheet or at least they dont update it.Example, Rezzing became signifigantly less valuable in the group game.
You re just full of it.Your tap arent linked, and all SK i know use 3 LT.Mana is a non issue, going oom is very hard nowaday, you also dont have to switch target to heal yourself, which alone, if a huge timeloss, that doesnt even make up for the cast time advantage.The fact that proc + lt considered can self heal as well as a pal , and in the mean time , are able to deal 3x more dps, is pure bs.However you want to twist it, paladin are useless in raid, there s no role where you NEEd a paladin.Sk are = single aggro, infinitly better AE aggro, got a huge aggro ability (HT),Big dps,have more mitigation mean etc.There s no role a paladin can have that a class cant do better.Ofc i am not surprise that you call that fairly balanced, since you ve been asking dev along with xanathol for year to have equal self healing to paladin without losing on any other side, dps, or utility.
first of all: yes, we have unlinked taps - and the same rule applies to all 3 of those taps that applies to the current: the ratio is worse, or the healing is substantially less, than any of the 3 heals you get per expansion cycle. not to mention your recast times are better, and except for 1 heal the cast times are shorter.you have a valid argument in the self-target issue, and frankly i think it's a great issue to bring up with the devs, with respect to getting a heal line that works like the mage and bst epic clickies, that cast on you without needing to target you.
i don't personally see that totc and taps equal pally on-demand healing... in a group situation, yes - but not on raids. there's that whole balance thing again where we win out in some situations, you win out in others.
as for your quip about never NEEDING a paladin, you never NEED an sk either, so i don't get your point there.and as of now, paladins are superior snap aggro to sks, and arguably superior sustained - yes we got you on the AE thing, no argument there, but pally > sk for single target hate (which, as an sk, i'm totally fine with).also, yes HT is a huge aggro ability... that's usable every 24 minutes. so?and since when do sks have more mitigation? oh ya... since never.
as for your last little snipe - what? no, i haven't, and i'm probably the most pro-paladin member of the active SK community. i've argued for more diversity in the Sk tap line, so that we get multiple versions per expansion instead of just using the last 3 iterations of the same spell, but i've never said that sk on-demand healing via taps should be equal to paladin on-demand vis direct heals, because i absolutely do NOT think that it should be - we should be somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of your on-demand capability, and i've argued for better paladin heals since about TSS.
way to be a blubbery vag though. bravo.
This entire thread has devolved into a discussion of "My Class Sucks" vs "no, My Class Sucks More" and is, therefore, of little further value.
Sorry, Richard, i thought you'd ordered the list. I was also discussing Porting vs FD from the group's perspective, not the toon's perspective. Most groups put more value on a member that can port them around than on that toon's own ability to survive (and possibly killing other group members by redirecting aggro).
By the same token, I pick, for groups, people that can survive over all else. i don't mean evade/FD, I mean... AA's and skills. As an example, I will pick a Wizard that understands aggro control over a Rogue that doesn't every day of the week (or vice versa).
For the record, I also have a long shite list of people that I know cheat. No matter how much I need them or respect their skill, I will never invite them, almost without exception (there are some toons I know that are played by more than one person, where some use cheat programs and others do not).
NGTV13 wrote:
But, another option, for 'big go boom' DPS would be a good ole wizzie. They're pretty easily automated (just have to mouse over and hit the nuke button) and pump out serious DPS
Yar, Paladin main, + healer merc, + boxed wizard is awesomeness. Wizzy makes up for our crappy DPS versus live, so boxing live mobs I still do fairly decent exp wise. Then for undead I'll just drop the merc and wizard.
Plus even in the world of PoK stones, guildhall portal, magus, etc etc..... Wizard ports are a godsend for the lazy (me), and TL group to bind makes it even oh so much sweeter.
Hands down beastlords.
If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?
They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....
I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.
Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.
fystsofury wrote:
If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.
I think monks on all servers need to send tells to Kheibik on bertox and learn how to play a monk so they can stop complaining about how much monks suck right now. Jfc it is getting sad.
Because of paragon, one extra cleric would contribute more. Just leave one in guild hall for SE.
Nice DPS? lol.
Calixto-Combine wrote:
fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?Because of paragon, one extra cleric would contribute more. Just leave one in guild hall for SE.Nice DPS? lol.
Didn't you you 1 group Lethar & BB with Inphared? He's pretty solid DPS.
darkpoet29 wrote:
Calixto-Combine wrote:fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?Because of paragon, one extra cleric would contribute more. Just leave one in guild hall for SE.Nice DPS? lol.Didn't you you 1 group Lethar & BB with Inphared? He's pretty solid DPS.
And I've never seen another beastlord do half his DPS.
Ranilen wrote:
fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.I think monks on all servers need to send tells to Kheibik on bertox and learn how to play a monk so they can stop complaining about how much monks suck right now. Jfc it is getting sad.
I think people like you should actually learn to read and comprehend what was said before shouting off at the mouth, making yourself look ignorant.
You are right about one thing tho, it is sad about the complaining most monks do!
darkpoet29 wrote:Calixto-Combine wrote:fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?Because of paragon, one extra cleric would contribute more. Just leave one in guild hall for SE.Nice DPS? lol.Didn't you you 1 group Lethar & BB with Inphared? He's pretty solid DPS.And I've never seen another beastlord do half his DPS.
So one can come to the conclusion either he hacks ( which I doubt ) or you have been guilded / know with slack bsts. If one player can do something, another can.
So, Which one is it?
Yes, because guilds are just flooded with clerics that are sitting out on raids.....
The retort to your other pitiful reply is below also.
That's pretty bad then. What is he doing that makes him better than everyone else by x2? Skilled players will always show what the class can do... the problem is there are way more lazy/unskilled players than those that actually devote themselves to being the best they can be.
But, I am sure you've already gotten that from his attitude and how he handles himself.
Monks do incredibly well, however 99% of monks don't know how to play so that's the issue with that class.
Bst's have a lot of issue and are easily the worst off right now.
That doesn't mean Beasts aren't potentially good DPS. It just means the other beasts you have grouped with are not at Inpha's skill level.
Skill level is not the fault of the class, but instead the player.
fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.Monks do incredibly well, however 99% of monks don't know how to play so that's the issue with that class.Bst's have a lot of issue and are easily the worst off right now.
99% of the rangers manage to suck beyond belief, yet I normally don't go around b*** about that fact in every thread on the boards.
"Easily"? Go look at the thread entitled The changing face of EQ: A statistical study. I think you'll find that a statistical measure of how players feel is entirely different.
People are leaving the Cleric and Necro classes enormously faster than any other class... order of magnitude.
That's the only real quantatative measure possible... The players who play them are giving up.
That said, the cleric statistic (as mentioned in the thread) can be misleading because it can't measure dropped bots that have been replaced with mercs.
EDIT ADD: To be fair, the necro statistic is presumed to be because people no longer use alt necros to solo with, since they can now solo on other toons - essentially necros no longer serve a purpose, per that explaination.
Liethi wrote:
Hatsee wrote:fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.Monks do incredibly well, however 99% of monks don't know how to play so that's the issue with that class.Bst's have a lot of issue and are easily the worst off right now.99% of the rangers manage to suck beyond belief, yet I normally don't go around b*** about that fact in every thread on the boards.
He is saying his class is bad, he didn't point out a flaw or something that is wrong he just said they are the worst off right now. I wont deny that a lot of rangers are bad too, but I don't see any in here saying we are the worst off right now, or did I miss them?
Hatsee wrote:fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.Monks do incredibly well, however 99% of monks don't know how to play so that's the issue with that class.Bst's have a lot of issue and are easily the worst off right now."Easily"? Go look at the thread entitled The changing face of EQ: A statistical study. I think you'll find that a statistical measure of how players feel is entirely different.People are leaving the Cleric and Necro classes enormously faster than any other class... order of magnitude.That's the only real quantatative measure possible... The players who play them are giving up. That said, the cleric statistic (as mentioned in the thread) can be misleading because it can't measure dropped bots that have been replaced with mercs.EDIT ADD: To be fair, the necro statistic is presumed to be because people no longer use alt necros to solo with, since they can now solo on other toons - essentially necros no longer serve a purpose, per that explaination.
Clerics, I'd be willing to say a lot of them are bots.
Necro's, they do incredibly well. However it is probably the hardest class to play as best as it can be. They kind of suck in groups but to fix that would probably mess up any sort of balance in this game right now.
Probably should not have used the term "much worse off" because I really do not feel that way, but I do not see how we are in better shape than bsts.
I agree that monks are doing well this expansion, but I just dont see how a bst are so worse off. I mean I dont play a bst but I can see parses and they parse relativly well. That and they have more utility than any other melle dps class. I see other classes needing a little more help than bst.
One could argue a ranger has more or vise versa, but in my eyes the bst trumps the ranger in utility,.
Uberify necros!
Liethi wrote:Hatsee wrote:fystsofury wrote:If bsts are in such a bad spot, then why do all of the clerics jump for joy when one gets into our raids?They put up very nice dps, and have the ability to slow, heal, buff, feed mana, have pets, etc.....I will say monks are much worse off ( and I am not saying that we are bad to begin with ) than bst. I mean, the ability to slow in its own makes up for the slight dps advantage we have.Not every guild out there is high end and doesnt need what they have to offer.Monks do incredibly well, however 99% of monks don't know how to play so that's the issue with that class.Bst's have a lot of issue and are easily the worst off right now.99% of the rangers manage to suck beyond belief, yet I normally don't go around b*** about that fact in every thread on the boards.He is saying his class is bad, he didn't point out a flaw or something that is wrong he just said they are the worst off right now. I wont deny that a lot of rangers are bad too, but I don't see any in here saying we are the worst off right now, or did I miss them?
hatsee knows bad rangers... he plays one everyday
Soon you will have more posts than me, Naubi
Karthos wrote:
It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlord
It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.
Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlord
Bard>Warrior? I can't remember ever being beaten by a bard. Even when I was tanking =O!
Every paladin that posted in this thread whining about how bad paladins suck need to delete and reroll.For raids, yes, we do stink at this point in current content against comparably geared/aa other classes.
Every paladin that posted in this thread whining about how bad paladins suck need to delete and reroll.
For raids, yes, we do stink at this point in current content against comparably geared/aa other classes.
Haha you first
Philphan wrote:
Thanks phil, always the voice of reason.
