So I'm wondering, is skipping the trash in Tower intended or an exploit? So if its intended then why even put trash in the zone?? If its not intended lets try to fix this and make guilds do things the right way.
You could always skip the trash... pull the mobs away from raid, run up to next spot (with entire raid)... wait for a couple to path back that you need to kill (mezz them until all ready). Unless the mobs are not mezzable, there is no exploiting there.
Ok ive been quiet about this long enough, if this is not an exploit why did the developers take time to put the mobs in tower, give them emotes and special abilites for guilds to just cheat the system and run past them. Well all i want to know is GM'S is this or is this not how it was intended please, well i understand if you can not comment on current exploits but can we get some sort of clarification on if its ok to skip a whole zone of trash. im sure soe is well aware of what guilds are doing in discord tower, so they must have some stance on the subject by now.
Players have been training trash out of the way since EQ began, i'd hardly call it an exploit. If SOE sees it as a problem, they'll do something about it (think FoS illusion tasks). Til then, enjoy skipping the trash if you're ballsy enough to try.
I was more refering to the use of the banner while mez or trianing the mobs, see this bugs me becuse some guilds will use the banner in ways its not intended then what do you know SOE will say no banners for all. Then people who dont misuse the banner will have it taken away from them too.
People wouldn't skip the trash if it wasn't so incredibly unfun to kill. Players always try to find ways around the pain the the rear parts of the game.
It's the lack of a reward. If the trash gave significant exp, significant lewt, or some form of reward - at all - then sure, by all means. But it doesn't. The aug drop rate in Tower isn't any better than killing mobs in Korafax, and is slower than a single group's kill speed.
You want to make hard trash, go for it - but you need to incentivize it too. Have it spawn aug mobs, have it give significant amounts of exp, increase their purity (particularly 25s) aug drop rate a TON, have them drop random tier3 wrist essences for all I care - INCENTIVIZE.
Trash for the sake of trash being in the way will always be treated with the path that is fastest or of least resistance - both if possible.
its funny how guilds who do this stuff really think they deserve to win, when they tricked and cheated the system every way they can to finish first.
Nahatma wrote:
Living Legacy raids, anyone? What else is new.
Crovack wrote:
It's the lack of a reward. If the trash gave significant exp, significant lewt, or some form of reward - at all - then sure, by all means. But it doesn't. The aug drop rate in Tower isn't any better than killing mobs in Korafax, and is slower than a single group's kill speed.You want to make hard trash, go for it - but you need to incentivize it too. Have it spawn aug mobs, have it give significant amounts of exp, increase their purity (particularly 25s) aug drop rate a TON, have them drop random tier3 wrist essences for all I care - INCENTIVIZE.Trash for the sake of trash being in the way will always be treated with the path that is fastest or of least resistance - both if possible.
so because its hard its OK to find anyway possible to exploit?
I really don't think it's about trying to "finish first" in this case. I can't blame anyone for wanting to skip the trash in Tower... it's horrible. The trash clear here is the least fun of any trash clear I've done in a raid zone to date.
As much as people complain about MMM trash I'd much rather be doing MMM trash than Tower trash.
MasterBman wrote:
Crovack wrote:It's the lack of a reward. If the trash gave significant exp, significant lewt, or some form of reward - at all - then sure, by all means. But it doesn't. The aug drop rate in Tower isn't any better than killing mobs in Korafax, and is slower than a single group's kill speed.You want to make hard trash, go for it - but you need to incentivize it too. Have it spawn aug mobs, have it give significant amounts of exp, increase their purity (particularly 25s) aug drop rate a TON, have them drop random tier3 wrist essences for all I care - INCENTIVIZE.Trash for the sake of trash being in the way will always be treated with the path that is fastest or of least resistance - both if possible. so because its hard its OK to find anyway possible to exploit?
I never said we skipped it, much less exploited to do so.
However, I don't believe skipping trash is wrong. Exploiting is, regardless of what action you're taking.
Our fastest tower clear is about 3:20'ish and that included killing trash.
MasterBman wrote:Crovack wrote:It's the lack of a reward. If the trash gave significant exp, significant lewt, or some form of reward - at all - then sure, by all means. But it doesn't. The aug drop rate in Tower isn't any better than killing mobs in Korafax, and is slower than a single group's kill speed.You want to make hard trash, go for it - but you need to incentivize it too. Have it spawn aug mobs, have it give significant amounts of exp, increase their purity (particularly 25s) aug drop rate a TON, have them drop random tier3 wrist essences for all I care - INCENTIVIZE.Trash for the sake of trash being in the way will always be treated with the path that is fastest or of least resistance - both if possible. so because its hard its OK to find anyway possible to exploit?I never said we skipped it, much less exploited to do so.However, I don't believe skipping trash is wrong. Exploiting is, regardless of what action you're taking.
hehe i didnt say you did it either, guilty conscience?
neomongo wrote:
ahh now we see why tower was concidered so easy they didn't do them the right way? i can't fault em for skipping useless trash it is what most people do. after all you gotta get the phat lewtz anyway you can, then come to the boards saying how easy it was and how trash needs to be thinned out some.
The trash in Tower isn't hard. It's just tedious. The only "hard" trash is the lightning guys, and once you figure out how to completely ignore the emotes they too fall into the "tedious" category.If the trash in Tower had 10x more health or 1/10th as much health as it currently does now the difficulty of Tower would not change.
(Edit: I actually think the birds in Tower are fun, but that's the only trash mob that's fun for me. heh)
I find this extemely funny that you say that Triality clears trash....this is a bold face lie. You also go to talk about exploiting is bad. Then explain to the rest of us how some un named guild got all of their crystallos flags in one week? How would this un named guild also be getting multipule flying mounts from the fos raids in one night? So yes i would say he has a guilty conscience.
Crovack wrote:MasterBman wrote:Crovack wrote:It's the lack of a reward. If the trash gave significant exp, significant lewt, or some form of reward - at all - then sure, by all means. But it doesn't. The aug drop rate in Tower isn't any better than killing mobs in Korafax, and is slower than a single group's kill speed.You want to make hard trash, go for it - but you need to incentivize it too. Have it spawn aug mobs, have it give significant amounts of exp, increase their purity (particularly 25s) aug drop rate a TON, have them drop random tier3 wrist essences for all I care - INCENTIVIZE.Trash for the sake of trash being in the way will always be treated with the path that is fastest or of least resistance - both if possible. so because its hard its OK to find anyway possible to exploit?I never said we skipped it, much less exploited to do so.However, I don't believe skipping trash is wrong. Exploiting is, regardless of what action you're taking.hehe i didnt say you did it either, guilty conscience?
You have 2 posts, and both are in this ridiculously lame thread full of some people complaining that guilds have come up with ways to save an hour or two mindlessly killing trash mobs in an end-game zone they earned the right to raid in?
Really?
Who legitimately thinks that figuring out inventive ways of dealing with events is really exploiting? I mean, seriously? There's no "exploit" here folks... no "bugs" being taken advantage of... it's called using your head to come up with inventive ways of dealing with a problem, and if you don't like it then maybe you should go back to free cell.
this logic works for you? REALLY the devs put the trash in to be skiped huh, they coded it, tested it and put in emotes that took a lot of codeing and desighn work to be skiped huh but of course if i was exploiting too i wouldnt call it that...
Is it an exploit to have a necro drag corpses to a camp spot? Is it an exploit to have a mage bot camped deep in a zone to coth people across? Is it an exploit to hug a wall to avoid clearing a few trash that may be just out of agro range?
jfc, grow up.
Noob_0001 wrote:
How would this un named guild also be getting multipule flying mounts from the fos raids in one night?
Don't blame the players, blame sony for making FoS3 so ridiculously easy it takes less than a full raid force to take it down. No more an "exploit" than one grouping old raid content.
i dont know about growing up but i am old enough to look up the deffintion of explotaion, and it applies when you use situations to your advantage that were not intented to be used in that maner you are exploiting, just admit it you will feel better in the long run if your honest with yourself.
I find this extemely funny that you say that Triality clears trash....this is a bold face lie.
We cleared the trash every single week until they reactivated banners last month. You think you know better than I do?
Just ignore the mental midgits that have a tree limb inserted in their donkey.
Threads like this amaze me. Have you always killed every mob on your way to kill every boss mob you have killed? Have you ever invised to get to a mob you wanted to kill? Have you ever campfired to a mob you wanted to kill? Have you ever ran around the wall to avoid killing trash? Did SOE intend for you to do any off these things? Every person here has done one or the other. And i could go on naming more things SOE most likely didnt intend for you to do. But you did.
If someone thinks of something before someone else it must be a exploit...right? If you improvise in any fashion its cheating correct? Just amazing. Now if you were improperly bannering to kill a boss mob then yea....but to avoid killing trash. How long you been playing EQ?
Rasper_Helpdesk wrote:
wow not only do u publicy support exploitation on your website, ie. telling everyone you skip trash in tower you call people names who disagree with your use of explotaion. I must say im stunned.
And while we're at it, how dare people banner/campfire to Rathe Council Chambers instead of clearing the 100 trashmobs on the way!
Wait, you can get multiple mounts from fos3 raid?
Ronak-Xegony wrote:
No, but you can have all but 18 people/bots drop the task during Ganak as it doesn't lock until he's dead. Sploits omg.
Calixto-Combine wrote:
Ronak-Xegony wrote:Wait, you can get multiple mounts from fos3 raid?No, but you can have all but 18 people/bots drop the task during Ganak as it doesn't lock until he's dead. Sploits omg.
Oh, nevermind then. Waste of time doing it more than once a month.
I'd be more surprised that anyone would actually waste time repeatedly doing FoS3 just for mounts.
Grau-TT wrote:
Surprise!
Grau-TT wrote:I'd be more surprised that anyone would actually waste time repeatedly doing FoS3 just for mounts.Surprise!
You gotta be either bored as hell, or (somehow) stuck in FoS unable to progress to even consider doing that.
I think my guild would revolt and come after me with pitchforks if I ever suggested it. :-p
Thymiak wrote:
Thats right! And i dare you people that invis and run to any raid event. You must kill Every MOB otw. Make sure every zone is clean as a whistle! I insist because why else would their even be mobs in your way? Why would SOE put 50 mobs in your way otw to Crystal Core if they didnt intend for you to kill them?
You see how dumb you sound yet?
Calixto-Combine wrote:Ronak-Xegony wrote:Wait, you can get multiple mounts from fos3 raid?No, but you can have all but 18 people/bots drop the task during Ganak as it doesn't lock until he's dead. Sploits omg.Oh, nevermind then. Waste of time doing it more than once a month.
Says you. I want a flappy!
I find it hard to believe anyone actually think trash is made so that it can be skipped. On the other hand EQ doesn't really go out of its way to ensure you can't skip the trash. If they really wanted you to kill the trash they could just make the named untargettable/unaggroable until all the trash is cleared. For example on Plane of Time absolutely requires you to kill every trash mob in the zone, but of course Plane of Time actually incorporates the trash into the event itself so it doesn't feel like it's a waste of time, or at least not as much.
Actually, why don't we have more zones like Plane of Time? Just make a long corridor of mobs, put a mini boss, and just don't even spawn the next encounter until all trash are cleared. You can't even open the doors in PoTime without clearing every single mob up, and I'm pretty sure even if you somehow warped past those doors you'd find there's nothing behind them until you kill all the stuff before it. Nobody thought that sucked because you actually get something to show for your effort. Why have raids regressed from PoP?
FD was never meant to pull, so is that an exploit? I'd say it's more inventive thinking. It's the same here, they aren't using anything like warping through locked doors(like you can do in most of PoP) or falling through the floor to get to other parts of zones(sirens grotto and some others), no they are just thinking instead of using brute force. Ever heard of work smarter not harder?
saphfire wrote:
Well all i want to know is GM'S is this or is this not how it was intended please, well i understand if you can not comment on current exploits but can we get some sort of clarification on if its ok to skip a whole zone of trash. im sure soe is well aware of what guilds are doing in discord tower, so they must have some stance on the subject by now.
You have gotten better at understanding the difference between a GM and a dev! (1)
Welcome to life. Nice guys finish last. Not that this really qualifies.
Tough talk from someone wearing T3 group gear. Shoo, you can have an opinion on Tower tactics when you get a stat over 500. Then again, if you spent as much time on EQ as you spend trolling here with your fanboyism, you could probably solo Tower.
Go brush up on your EQ history and come back. Half the tactics that are common use today weren't intended by the devs. It's a well known fact that the original devs didn't mean for feign death to be used to split mobs, only to be used a last ditch effort to save one's life. And for the love of God, don't lecture us on the definition of exploit. That word was around 150 years before computer games existed and 2 of its 3 definitions aren't even negative.
if you are old enough to look up the definition of exploitation , the least you could have done is look at the spelling while you were looking at the definition - that's assuming you were even at the correct word in the first place.......
Caidoz wrote:
saphfire wrote:Well all i want to know is GM'S is this or is this not how it was intended please, well i understand if you can not comment on current exploits but can we get some sort of clarification on if its ok to skip a whole zone of trash. im sure soe is well aware of what guilds are doing in discord tower, so they must have some stance on the subject by now.You have gotten better at understanding the difference between a GM and a dev! (1) Nahatma wrote:its funny how guilds who do this stuff really think they deserve to win, when they tricked and cheated the system every way they can to finish first. Welcome to life. Nice guys finish last. Not that this really qualifies. neomongo wrote:ahh now we see why tower was concidered so easy they didn't do them the right way? i can't fault em for skipping useless trash it is what most people do. after all you gotta get the phat lewtz anyway you can, then come to the boards saying how easy it was and how trash needs to be thinned out some. Tough talk from someone wearing T3 group gear. Shoo, you can have an opinion on Tower tactics when you get a stat over 500. Then again, if you spent as much time on EQ as you spend trolling here with your fanboyism, you could probably solo Tower. MasterBman wrote:i dont know about growing up but i am old enough to look up the deffintion of explotaion, and it applies when you use situations to your advantage that were not intented to be used in that maner you are exploiting, just admit it you will feel better in the long run if your honest with yourself. Go brush up on your EQ history and come back. Half the tactics that are common use today weren't intended by the devs. It's a well known fact that the original devs didn't mean for feign death to be used to split mobs, only to be used a last ditch effort to save one's life. And for the love of God, don't lecture us on the definition of exploit. That word was around 150 years before computer games existed and 2 of its 3 definitions aren't even negative.
I normally disagree with you, but you are spot on here. Nice.
AutomaticWarrior wrote:
I find it hard to believe anyone actually think trash is made so that it can be skipped. On the other hand EQ doesn't really go out of its way to ensure you can't skip the trash. If they really wanted you to kill the trash they could just make the named untargettable/unaggroable until all the trash is cleared. For example on Plane of Time absolutely requires you to kill every trash mob in the zone, but of course Plane of Time actually incorporates the trash into the event itself so it doesn't feel like it's a waste of time, or at least not as much.Actually, why don't we have more zones like Plane of Time? Just make a long corridor of mobs, put a mini boss, and just don't even spawn the next encounter until all trash are cleared. You can't even open the doors in PoTime without clearing every single mob up, and I'm pretty sure even if you somehow warped past those doors you'd find there's nothing behind them until you kill all the stuff before it. Nobody thought that sucked because you actually get something to show for your effort. Why have raids regressed from PoP?
So should I punch myself in the eye because I've skipped trash sometimes, what about groupers? Should they be expected to clear to their camps all the time everytime? It's the same principal isn't it? They are going somewhere to get exp/loot, why are they allowed to skip things but we are not?
Are you even in tower? Have you even seen this trash? A stupid trash mob with 3million+ hp is excessive, ridiculous actually. Add in his 20 or so friends and you're actually putting in more effort to clear trash than do some of the events, now consider that we get little exp for this as well as no reward, and well hey I'm glad all these people not in tower feel entitled to talk about trash in tower, it just makes sense to talk about something you know nothing about.
Hatsee wrote:
So should I punch myself in the eye because I've skipped trash sometimes, what about groupers? Should they be expected to clear to their camps all the time everytime? It's the same principal isn't it? They are going somewhere to get exp/loot, why are they allowed to skip things but we are not?Are you even in tower? Have you even seen this trash? A stupid trash mob with 3million+ hp is excessive, ridiculous actually. Add in his 20 or so friends and you're actually putting in more effort to clear trash than do some of the events, now consider that we get little exp for this as well as no reward, and well hey I'm glad all these people not in tower feel entitled to talk about trash in tower, it just makes sense to talk about something you know nothing about.
I fail to see why that has any relevance when it is pretty clear that devs designed that trash as part of the encounter time. They even had a time frame (1 hour) they expect you to spend on the trash which implies it is obviously meant to be killed. Whether that time is accurate or not doesn't give you some kind of right to skip it.
Like I said I don't particularly care what you are doing in Tower relative to trash because if they really wanted to make trash unskippable they obviously can, so if they didn't do that it's the devs' own problem. But don't pretend this stuff is supposed to be skipped. I'm more surprised by that it's skippable than the fact it's skipped though since there has been mechanism that ensure you cannot skip any trash all the way dating back to PoP. A PoTime mechanism would not be bypassable by any means even if you can warp to any part of the zone at will. It's strange it's not used more often, or at all.
Hatsee wrote:So should I punch myself in the eye because I've skipped trash sometimes, what about groupers? Should they be expected to clear to their camps all the time everytime? It's the same principal isn't it? They are going somewhere to get exp/loot, why are they allowed to skip things but we are not?Are you even in tower? Have you even seen this trash? A stupid trash mob with 3million+ hp is excessive, ridiculous actually. Add in his 20 or so friends and you're actually putting in more effort to clear trash than do some of the events, now consider that we get little exp for this as well as no reward, and well hey I'm glad all these people not in tower feel entitled to talk about trash in tower, it just makes sense to talk about something you know nothing about.I fail to see why that has any relevance when it is pretty clear that devs designed that trash as part of the encounter time. They even had a time frame (1 hour) they expect you to spend on the trash which implies it is obviously meant to be killed. Whether that time is accurate or not doesn't give you some kind of right to skip it.Like I said I don't particularly care what you are doing in Tower relative to trash because if they really wanted to make trash unskippable they obviously can, so if they didn't do that it's the devs' own problem. But don't pretend this stuff is supposed to be skipped. I'm more surprised by that it's skippable than the fact it's skipped though since there has been mechanism that ensure you cannot skip any trash all the way dating back to PoP. A PoTime mechanism would not be bypassable by any means even if you can warp to any part of the zone at will. It's strange it's not used more often, or at all.
So you never tossed on an invis in an instance? I mean it popped with all that trash, it would be simply wrong to not kill all of it.
Most of the recent expansions, the instanced zones are based off the staic zones, and the trash is generically randomly placed much like the static zones. Do you need to clear every piece of trash in anguish to clear anguish.......no. Did people run through Theatre of Blood, and IVU past Mad Mary-Anne, skipping the trash in the zone, to get to Deathknell, yes they did. Do you need to completely clear Frostcrypt to win all the events there, no, but it helps. Did you clear the entire Citadel of Anguish when you just got your 2.0 orb without having to actually flag for the zone?
The last zones I can think of with a forced route were Ashengate North, and Solteris. Solteris and Ashengate at least had rewards from killing trash, the Power infused materials required to make the armor combines for TSS, and the Phosphites needed for rank3 spells and powersources in Solteris. Although my guild is a few clears away from entering the tower, clearing trash in any raid zone gets old. Call it an exploit all you want, but part of EQ and raiding has always been using your head to find the best way to reach your objectives. Maybe the trash should drop Chronobines, or more 25 purity augs like suggested elsewhere in this post, but being bland trash, without any purpose other than to consume time, is more of the same timesinking we saw in MMM. If the trash had a decent amount of xp, which the whole SoD exansion seems to lack, at least there would be something. MMM you could at least score an AA or two off the trash.....
From what I've seen on most posts like this, the main people objecting neither have the drive or desire to raid these zones, but still feel the need to whine and moan about every little thing. I could see if you were in a guild raiding the Tower and had to clear all the trash being angry because someone doesn't, but you're not, so why make objections like you are?
AutomaticWarrior wrote:Hatsee wrote:So should I punch myself in the eye because I've skipped trash sometimes, what about groupers? Should they be expected to clear to their camps all the time everytime? It's the same principal isn't it? They are going somewhere to get exp/loot, why are they allowed to skip things but we are not?Are you even in tower? Have you even seen this trash? A stupid trash mob with 3million+ hp is excessive, ridiculous actually. Add in his 20 or so friends and you're actually putting in more effort to clear trash than do some of the events, now consider that we get little exp for this as well as no reward, and well hey I'm glad all these people not in tower feel entitled to talk about trash in tower, it just makes sense to talk about something you know nothing about.I fail to see why that has any relevance when it is pretty clear that devs designed that trash as part of the encounter time. They even had a time frame (1 hour) they expect you to spend on the trash which implies it is obviously meant to be killed. Whether that time is accurate or not doesn't give you some kind of right to skip it.Like I said I don't particularly care what you are doing in Tower relative to trash because if they really wanted to make trash unskippable they obviously can, so if they didn't do that it's the devs' own problem. But don't pretend this stuff is supposed to be skipped. I'm more surprised by that it's skippable than the fact it's skipped though since there has been mechanism that ensure you cannot skip any trash all the way dating back to PoP. A PoTime mechanism would not be bypassable by any means even if you can warp to any part of the zone at will. It's strange it's not used more often, or at all.So you never tossed on an invis in an instance? I mean it popped with all that trash, it would be simply wrong to not kill all of it.
If you noticed, I said I think it's dev's own problem if they designed something and it can be trivially bypassed and wonder why it is bypassed. That doesn't change the fact that the content is not meant to be bypassed. Trash in Steam Factory or Korafax raid instances can be bypassed with just invis alone. I don't think anybody will think that's somehow exploiting but again, do you really think someone actually wasted all that time populating the zone and assign stats to mobs only to have them never killed? The Anguish signet instances also tend to involve just training a large distance into the signet dropper and bypassing all the content in between. To me it seems like it's a waste of resources if you have to design mobs, populate the zone, assign abilities, and so on to a bunch of mob that nobody will actually fight. Either they can make the stuff not bypassable, or they can just not have trash. The current incarnation of trash seems to be just about the worst possible, in that they waste player's time to kill it and and they waste the dev's time to design it.
They finally turned it on in RCC? Dang, about time. >_<
Mindrix-Triality wrote:
Thymiak wrote:And while we're at it, how dare people banner/campfire to Rathe Council Chambers instead of clearing the 100 trashmobs on the way!They finally turned it on in RCC? Dang, about time. >_<
Nah, just ouside RCC, lol. No dice.
Calixto-Combine wrote:Grau-TT wrote:I'd be more surprised that anyone would actually waste time repeatedly doing FoS3 just for mounts.Surprise!You gotta be either bored as hell, or (somehow) stuck in FoS unable to progress to even consider doing that.I think my guild would revolt and come after me with pitchforks if I ever suggested it. :-p
Realistically, doing all of the "current" raid content that grants useful loot, is a 2 raid day prospect for us. Adding in all of the raids in the expansion, is only 3 raids if we were really hammering it. That's not a lot of content. So, yes, we're bored as hell. Though we've only done the double Dragons twice. It's a fun raid for a while, but I think we're approaching 30 bridles, so it's not as fun, now.
As for the Tower trash, why would you want to waste time in a zone? You're there to beat the content, not sit around. Our best Tower clear was actually around 3h:41m (not 3:20) for uptime. Probably around 3h:35m actual time. That was with trash. Without having to deal with all of the trash, it's shorter now. If the game gives you functions that are intended to be used, you're free to use them.
Mindrix-Triality wrote:Thymiak wrote:And while we're at it, how dare people banner/campfire to Rathe Council Chambers instead of clearing the 100 trashmobs on the way!They finally turned it on in RCC? Dang, about time. >_<Nah, just ouside RCC, lol. No dice.
I've asked for it to work in RCC several times. It works in Tower but not in the normal RCC zone. I still don't get that.
Isn't it ironic that there are only 2 zones in EQ where the banner does not work now?
Ashengate and Rathe Council Chambers.
Neither are flagged or keyed in any way, shape, or form either.
