Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

Malleria wrote:

Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)

be fashionable.

btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).
this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:

Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449sec
DMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161sec
DMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117sec
DMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467sec
DMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111sec
DMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185sec
DMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118sec
DMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431sec
DMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)

those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'

just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.

1: you suck at dps ing

2: high sk parse (6k to 8k) is something a sk with more than 2 neurone can repeat as much as they want.

3: i can show you 700dps paladin parse and try making you believe it s reality too.

4:Afk/slack parse dont count  as dps parse.

There you go.

2. 7kish parse is doable yes, if your guild lacks DPS classes to the point you get a DPS group, and mana reiterate, and use intensity + glyph. Of course, every class in the game except paladin, druid, cleric can beat those numbers in the same setup.

You forgot bards there.

Its a common mistake, so won't blame you.

To Abazz:

You're saying that because SKs can do a 5k+ dps burn when they use a (possibly broken) glyph, and have a bard and an enchanter,

paladins need to do 5k+ dps burn with just raid buffs... under which same circumstances SK do (as tearsin's parses show) 2-3k ish dps?

Naubi wrote:

There is a lot of crap said on the pally forum.

To clarify:

SKs don't heal the same (or close) to paladins.

Sk selfhealing is. And a big part of that is manafree(lifetap procs) which can be sustained for ever.

Emergency healing paladin is superior yes.

Naubi wrote:

To Abazz:

You're saying that because SKs can do a 5k+ dps burn when they use a (possibly broken) glyph, and have a bard and an enchanter,

paladins need to do 5k+ dps burn with just raid buffs... under which same circumstances SK do (as tearsin's parses show) 2-3k ish dps?

 

Tearsin isnt wearing top end focus, or weapon, and obviously showing his most crappy parses.

Let me get my tanking parse with 1hander and show you paladin only do 900dps !

Zymosis wrote:

Naubi wrote:

There is a lot of crap said on the pally forum.

To clarify:

SKs don't heal the same (or close) to paladins.

Sk selfhealing is. And a big part of that is manafree(lifetap procs) which can be sustained for ever.

Emergency healing paladin is superior yes.

How so?

SK taps heal for less (we don't have healing focus aa),

take longer to cast 1.5 sec vs 1 sec,

and cost more mana than paladin's regular heal (nearly 70% more mana).

And then (for about the same mana cost as our tap) you have your "emergency heal", which is,

2x the hp of our tap even before your heal focus aa (it's over 2.5 x the healing after)

takes 0.25 sec to cast vs our 1.5 sec,

and costs about the same mana as our tap.

So your emergency spell fits the name in that it greys out your spell gem after you've cast it, but in mana cost it's the same as our tap... the cost doesn't fit the name from a SK perspective.

The one thing we do have is the possibility of a double crit (crit damage followed by crit heal)... but that occurs single digit % of the time and adds much less than your heal focus aa.

Most of the time a SK casts their rank III tap with tower focus and gets a 3k heal. Which is less than the base for your burst.

Naubi wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

Naubi wrote:

There is a lot of crap said on the pally forum.

To clarify:

SKs don't heal the same (or close) to paladins.

Sk selfhealing is. And a big part of that is manafree(lifetap procs) which can be sustained for ever.

Emergency healing paladin is superior yes.

How so?

SK taps heal for less (we don't have healing focus aa),

take longer to cast 1.5 sec vs 1 sec,

and cost more mana than paladin's regular heal (nearly 70% more mana).

 

And then (for about the same mana cost as our tap) you have your "emergency heal", which is,

2x the hp of our tap even before your heal focus aa (it's over 2.5 x the healing after)

takes 0.25 sec to cast vs our 1.5 sec,

and costs about the same mana as our tap.

So your emergency spell fits the name in that it greys out your spell gem after you've cast it, but in mana cost it's the same as our tap... the cost doesn't fit the name from a SK perspective.

 

The one thing we do have is the possibility of a double crit (crit damage followed by crit heal)... but that occurs single digit % of the time and adds much less than your heal focus aa.

Most of the time a SK casts their rank III tap with tower focus and gets a 3k heal. Which is less than the base for your burst.

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

From a non-paladin perspective, it just appears that paladins should get *some* way to burn their mana bar in a dps mode. Pretty much every class has some way to empty the tank in dps mode, but a paladin stays full mana too often in those situations.

I don't agree whatsoever with the desire for elevating paladin swing dps over shadowknights. The melee abilities have always been the same between the two. Sk's have gained the ability to burn through their mana bar, and paladins need some way to do the same.

Spell damage also has the advantage of being controllable by development. Melee damage is just going to make slay a bigger issue than it is currently. The dev's really want to change slay to the additive (instead of multiplicative) ability they say they intended. Asking for more no-effort dps is the same as asking 'nerf slay, please'.

-edit- beaten again by spelling.

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

BlankChatName wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

I'll trade slay undead right now, for the sk innate lifetaps they have atm. And I'm one of the biggest defenders of keeping slay undead as is.

The amount of healing from it has become extremely high due to increasing ranks. Brael true soloed Yar'lir, and that's great, but what is astonishing is the fact he did it in like 4 hours. His self buff/innate proc lifetaps kept him up for 4 hours. Yes, epic helped, and discs, but over that kind of time frame, it shows the amount of healing they get passively.

A comparison? Sk innate lifetap can crit for 8k heal. Paladin innate heal can crit for 1100.

Abazzagorath wrote:

BlankChatName wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

I'll trade slay undead right now, for the sk innate lifetaps they have atm. And I'm one of the biggest defenders of keeping slay undead as is.

The amount of healing from it has become extremely high due to increasing ranks. Brael true soloed Yar'lir, and that's great, but what is astonishing is the fact he did it in like 4 hours. His self buff/innate proc lifetaps kept him up for 4 hours. Yes, epic helped, and discs, but over that kind of time frame, it shows the amount of healing they get passively.

A comparison? Sk innate lifetap can crit for 8k heal. Paladin innate heal can crit for 1100.

 

1) can, doesn't mean 'do'

2) sk have always had tap procs, paladin's got their first heal proc last year?

Soon as you get something similar it has to be as good as SKs, right? That was what happend in beta over ae aggro and why you got nothing.

-edit, btw

1) I support paladins (and all healer hybrids) getting a heal upgrade in line with druids/clerics/shaman

2) I think paladins need some level of dps upgrade

3) I think it would be fine for paladins to get a long reuse ae aggro (10min+ reuse or something) as a genuine emergency ability.

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin isnt wearing top end focus, or weapon

let it be known that according to grrf, going from 65-70% poison focus to 90% poison focus, and from a 148/34 2h to (for example) 148/32... would result in a 5k DPS upgrade.

grats grrrf not understanding anything at all about the concept of DPS burning, nor what kind of DPS sks actually put out, nor about the differences between a 1 1/2 minute or 3 minute fight.

Zymosis wrote:

Naubi wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

Naubi wrote:

There is a lot of crap said on the pally forum.

To clarify:

SKs don't heal the same (or close) to paladins.

Sk selfhealing is. And a big part of that is manafree(lifetap procs) which can be sustained for ever.

Emergency healing paladin is superior yes.

How so?

SK taps heal for less (we don't have healing focus aa),

take longer to cast 1.5 sec vs 1 sec,

and cost more mana than paladin's regular heal (nearly 70% more mana).

 

And then (for about the same mana cost as our tap) you have your "emergency heal", which is,

2x the hp of our tap even before your heal focus aa (it's over 2.5 x the healing after)

takes 0.25 sec to cast vs our 1.5 sec,

and costs about the same mana as our tap.

So your emergency spell fits the name in that it greys out your spell gem after you've cast it, but in mana cost it's the same as our tap... the cost doesn't fit the name from a SK perspective.

 

The one thing we do have is the possibility of a double crit (crit damage followed by crit heal)... but that occurs single digit % of the time and adds much less than your heal focus aa.

Most of the time a SK casts their rank III tap with tower focus and gets a 3k heal. Which is less than the base for your burst.

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

Also that their LT double crit, benefit from crit Veteran wrath dd aa, use both heal amount and spell dmg, and get 5% better focus.

And that s not even counting LT heal for more than our normal 1 sec heal, when it used to heal 27% less.

Grrrrf wrote:

And that s not even counting LT heal for more than our normal 1 sec heal, when it used to heal 27% less.

This one thing I agree on. Hybrid healers got too little of an upgrade.

But pls remember you do have heal focus aa (and sk don't) so your 1sec heal does still heal for quite a bit more than our tap in reality.

Anyway, you're right, the SK tap shouldn't be more base hp than paladin fast heal.

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

Naubi wrote:

Abazzagorath wrote:

BlankChatName wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

I'll trade slay undead right now, for the sk innate lifetaps they have atm. And I'm one of the biggest defenders of keeping slay undead as is.

The amount of healing from it has become extremely high due to increasing ranks. Brael true soloed Yar'lir, and that's great, but what is astonishing is the fact he did it in like 4 hours. His self buff/innate proc lifetaps kept him up for 4 hours. Yes, epic helped, and discs, but over that kind of time frame, it shows the amount of healing they get passively.

A comparison? Sk innate lifetap can crit for 8k heal. Paladin innate heal can crit for 1100.

 

1) can, doesn't mean 'do'

2) sk have always had tap procs, paladin's got their first heal proc last year?

Soon as you get something similar it has to be as good as SKs, right? That was what happend in beta over ae aggro and why you got nothing.

 

-edit, btw

1) I support paladins (and all healer hybrids) getting a heal upgrade in line with druids/clerics/shaman

2) I think paladins need some level of dps upgrade

3) I think it would be fine for paladins to get a long reuse ae aggro (10min+ reuse or something) as a genuine emergency ability.

Great example of why you should never be allowed to post in beta. You are completely incapable of rational thought and do nothing but propagandize.

Whining that I'm demanding sk level innate healing, when all I said was that I would trade slay undead for it in a heartbeat as a way of demonstrating how valuable that ability is, and then using that as a strawman to overgeneralize all paladins and all requests they ever make.

Way to miss the boat on intelligent conversation.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

yeah, cuz we have an absolute ball being able to mitigate low end content, and occasionally have a reasonably decent spot heal in group content. we're *so* freaking overpowered... zomfg.

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

yeah, cuz we have an absolute ball being able to mitigate low end content, and occasionally have a reasonably decent spot heal in group content. we're *so* freaking overpowered... zomfg.

I said fun, not overpowered.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

Wasn't it just a year or so ago they changed totc so it procced less?  I forget exactly when, but it's been looked at fairly recently.

BlankChatName wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

Wasn't it just a year or so ago they changed totc so it procced less?  I forget exactly when, but it's been looked at fairly recently.

that was actually a correction of a bug that made it fire more often than it should have... it was a bug that was in the game for a good while (6+ months) but that needed to be corrected in order to allow further expansion of the AA line.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

yeah, cuz we have an absolute ball being able to mitigate low end content, and occasionally have a reasonably decent spot heal in group content. we're *so* freaking overpowered... zomfg.

I said fun, not overpowered.

ah, well...
it's been the experience of the sk class that anyone who says 'fun' with sk actually means 'omg you overpowered lewsers something needs to get changed'

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

lets hope one day the figure that out with defensive and even up the ability to tank raid mobs for all tank classes.

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

BlankChatName wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

Wasn't it just a year or so ago they changed totc so it procced less?  I forget exactly when, but it's been looked at fairly recently.

that was actually a correction of a bug that made it fire more often than it should have... it was a bug that was in the game for a good while (6+ months) but that needed to be corrected in order to allow further expansion of the AA line.

Yeah, the point I was making was that it had been looked at fairly recently.  And after the correction, they were satisfied with the results.  It's not something that they would just 'discover' now.

Gwyddon_7th wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

lets hope one day the figure that out with defensive and even up the ability to tank raid mobs for all tank classes.

Thats never going to happen.  The entire raid scene is designed around defensive.

Look at the class innate procs based on the new AAs for the next expansion:

Warrior: proc for 1100 hate

Paladin: proc for 800 heal

Rogue: proc for -1000 hate

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Any effort to insist on comparing these ability will just be a repeat of the Summer/Winter nerf.  It's pretty clear that the lifetap is not scaling like the devs thought it would.  At some point they'll actually play the game and notice that the lifetap is way more than it ever should be.  That said things can go unfixed for a very long time, and this isn't anywhere near the top of things that are imbalanced right now.

Gwyddon_7th wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless.  It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion.  But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

lets hope one day the figure that out with defensive and even up the ability to tank raid mobs for all tank classes.

Unfortunately I don't think they'll ever figure this out, and I think it really does suck because as long as Warriors have an equivalent of 'IWIN' button there's really no point to talk about balance amongst tanks.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Look at the class innate procs based on the new AAs for the next expansion:

Warrior: proc for 1100 hate

Paladin: proc for 800 heal

Rogue: proc for -1000 hate

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Any effort to insist on comparing these ability will just be a repeat of the Summer/Winter nerf.  It's pretty clear that the lifetap is not scaling like the devs thought it would.  At some point they'll actually play the game and notice that the lifetap is way more than it ever should be.  That said things can go unfixed for a very long time, and this isn't anywhere near the top of things that are imbalanced right now.

this fails to take into account that TOTC has been in the game for years, for far longer than any of the other class innate AA proc lines. comparing a line that is currently in its 4th or 5th expansion iteration to a new line and trying to say they should be for equal amounts is basically ignoring the entire design architecture of EQ.

yes, comparatively speaking, TOTC does more than the equivalent innate AA skills that other classes have, but it's also currently at 18 ranks vs. the 6 ranks for the paladin innate heal or war AA proc.
comparing them directly necessarily implies that, at the time of their creation, they were meant to be equally powerful to a an AA line which at that point would have cost 3x the AAs to invest in.

and while i'll grant you that this seems like a flaw in the overall system, where something is weakened vs. current content due to the nature of its exponential power upgrades, really the solution is to request more ranks of your innate procs per expansion, to catch up to ours... not to expect that the 'right' course of action is to knock down our proc.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Did some testing with SK lifetaps last year.  They have 2:  The Shroud line (self-imbue proc spell) and Touch of the Cursed (AA passive innate).  Together they ain't so bad in thier base form.  But then theres the AA Soul Abrasion, that increases both of these lines well into the +1000 base range (don't remember exact numbers, but 1200ish and 1400ish come to mind). 

On top of that is a greater chance for a crit:  They have both Nuke crit AAs and Heal crit AAs....either one will double the heal (not overly concerned with the DPS).  Then of course theres the double crit that quadruples the heal, which is insane, but those are obviously few and far between.

I have mixed feelings on these.  On one hand, it drives me nuts that all they have to do is /attack on and get guaranteed heals.  On the other hand, they forked over a lot of AAs over the years for this.....plus I know how RNG abilities works, and they never come when you need them the most. 

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Look at the class innate procs based on the new AAs for the next expansion:

Warrior: proc for 1100 hate

Paladin: proc for 800 heal

Rogue: proc for -1000 hate

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Any effort to insist on comparing these ability will just be a repeat of the Summer/Winter nerf.  It's pretty clear that the lifetap is not scaling like the devs thought it would.  At some point they'll actually play the game and notice that the lifetap is way more than it ever should be.  That said things can go unfixed for a very long time, and this isn't anywhere near the top of things that are imbalanced right now.

you fail to recognize that TOTC has been in the game for years, for far longer than any of the other class innate AA proc lines. comparing a line that is currently in its 4th or 5th expansion iteration to a new line and trying to say they should be for equal amounts is basically ignoring the entire design architecture of EQ.

yes, comparatively speaking, TOTC does more than the equivalent innate AA skills that other classes have, but it's also currently at 18 ranks vs. the 6 ranks for the paladin innate heal or war AA proc.
comparing them directly necessarily implies that, at the time of their creation, they were meant to be equally powerful to a an AA line which at that point would have cost 3x the AAs to invest in.

The number of ranks has nothing to do with the power of an AA.  If Infused by Rage was in the game since level 60, it could have 18 ranks too.  By your logic Infused by Rage will now do something like 6000 hate proc proc since it has 18 ranks instead of 3.  This is not something the devs will allow.  If there are 18 ranks of Infused by Rage, the newest rank will still only do 1100 hate.  All you can say is that all classes but SK lucked out by not having to pay for the X ranks for minimal gain.  In this game you're never allowed to use the excuse "I paid more for this AA" as a reason for being more powerful.  Otherwise I am quite willing to pay 10 times the AA for more HP/mitigation/DPS. 

As the Winter/Summer nerf showed, devs can be rather oblivious of unintended mechanism even if you repeatedly try to slap them in the face with parses showing otherwise.  Abilities like innate procs tend to have a very systematic formula to determine power as you'll see the deaggro, heal, and aggro procs all come out to roughly the same number and here TOTC is the odd man out.  By the way, the biggest TOTC value I can find in spdat is damage for 490, which means my guess for 400 is actually quite close to what dev wanted.  I can bet you that in dev's mind, they believe your class is doing an innate proc for 490 for lifetap and that's balanced, just like devs thought Rangers never used Summer's Mist and Druids never used Winter's Flare.

Hulkling wrote:

I have mixed feelings on these.  On one hand, it drives me nuts that all they have to do is /attack on and get guaranteed heals.  On the other hand, they forked over a lot of AAs over the years for this.....plus I know how RNG abilities works, and they never come when you need them the most. 

doesn't your healing boon AA's work on your proc heal AA? i was under the impression that it did, but honestly i don't know.
if it doesn't, it should... and if it does, how exactly is SA for our procs any different than healing adept (or is it boon? whatever) is for yours? (speaking strictly in terms of your statement 'the problem is...' )
again, what strikes me is relative power in the stage of development - at 6 ranks, TOTC was what your heal proc is now. it's just that totc is at 18 ranks now.

as for the whole dual tap thing - yes, it's awesome when it happens. and yes, it's also very rare.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

The number of ranks has nothing to do with the power of an AA.  If Infused by Rage was in the game since level 60, it could have 18 ranks too.  By your logic Infused by Rage will now do something like 6000 hate proc proc since it has 18 ranks instead of 3.  This is not something the devs will allow.  If there are 18 ranks of Infused by Rage, the newest rank will still only do 1100 hate.  All you can say is that all classes but SK lucked out by not having to pay for the X ranks for minimal gain.  In this game you're never allowed to use the excuse "I paid more for this AA" as a reason for being more powerful.  Otherwise I am quite willing to pay 10 times the AA for more HP/mitigation/DPS. 

As the Winter/Summer nerf showed, devs can be rather oblivious of unintended mechanism even if you repeatedly try to slap them in the face with parses showing otherwise.  Abilities like innate procs tend to have a very systematic formula to determine power as you'll see the deaggro, heal, and aggro procs all come out to roughly the same number and here TOTC is the odd man out.  By the way, the biggest TOTC value I can find in spdat is damage for 490, which means my guess for 400 is actually quite close to what dev wanted.  I can bet you that in dev's mind, they believe your class is doing an innate proc for 490 for lifetap and that's balanced, just like devs thought Rangers never used Summer's Mist and Druids never used Winter's Flare.

i got as far as your first sentence and then realized that responding to you would be an effort in futility that i'm simply not capable of.

but i will say this:
if AA X has a base value and gets Y increase per rank of the AA, more ranks = more power. how you can't see this is simply beyond me.

Hulkling wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Did some testing with SK lifetaps last year.  They have 2:  The Shroud line (self-imbue proc spell) and Touch of the Cursed (AA passive innate).  Together they ain't so bad in thier base form.  But then theres the AA Soul Abrasion, that increases both of these lines well into the +1000 base range (don't remember exact numbers, but 1200ish and 1400ish come to mind). 

On top of that is a greater chance for a crit:  They have both Nuke crit AAs and Heal crit AAs....either one will double the heal (not overly concerned with the DPS).  Then of course theres the double crit that quadruples the heal, which is insane, but those are obviously few and far between.

I have mixed feelings on these.  On one hand, it drives me nuts that all they have to do is /attack on and get guaranteed heals.  On the other hand, they forked over a lot of AAs over the years for this.....plus I know how RNG abilities works, and they never come when you need them the most. 

I'm pretty sure Soul Abrasion is just a multiplier on the effect of the taps.  I think what happened was devs started out lowballing the effect on the lifetap for shroud/TOTC (saw some earlier entries for TOTC at 50 HP lifetap... why even bother?), and rather than fixing it they just made some AA that multiplied those lifetap effects by 3 or whatever and called that even.

Also, TOTC has a cast time of 0 and recast of 45s.  With the spell damage mod formula this comes out to be about 6.5X mod.  Given the biggest TOTC has a base of only 490, that means you need something like ~70 spell damage to double the power of TOTC.  This is not unlike the paladin group heal that was healing for some absolutely insane amount of damage since it had some ridiculously high recast time.  Similar to the Winter/Summer nerf you got yet another unintended consequence of bogus cast/recast time ends up biting you in the face when combined with spell damage mods.

You've got things backward.

The numbers weren't "lowballed", they are designed around the soul abrasion aa.

TOTC actually is an aa, the same dev who updated soul abrasion created ToTC. They were made at the same time (in fact the soul abrasion line as a whole is older by years).

I don't know why you're trying to portray it like ToTC was made to be weak and then the dev made soul abrasion as an afterthought. It's not "why bother" that's how it's meant to work. This is one of our original aa lines.

SK procs are so hardcoded into the game that every other proc in the game has to have a SK specific version. The SK class doesn't accidently have procs work differently, it's a basic thing about the class (that's why even other classes have versions of their own spells made for us).

dragonlorre wrote:

One thing i have never understood is why a war should have more dps than knights period. If you take a look from the mitigation side it seems melee dps scales from.....

Takes massive hits and doesnt do much damage to....

Cant take hits for beans and causes alot of damage.

Using that as an example, obviously rogues are going to cause alot more damage than a war. BUT though the gap is smaller knights do have less mitigation than wars and as such should be slightly higher imo.

In other words using "our friends" numbers it should be....

War 80%

Knights 100%

And so on....

Yeah yeah spellbook. Wars have one too so that argument is old and useless now. And 90 or 96%..who really cares when you are max level? As for buffs and utility...yeah..lots running around with pally buffs instead of cleric ones....Heals?..though they are nice and do help...unless they( and most classes who arent priests with heals to be honest) get lucky and get a few crit ones (and even then) they arent very useful imo. Take my necro for example..SKs i assume to be sort of the same...after a couple of hits or a large AE or something, there is nothing like spamming a tap over and over hoping for a crit to get your hps back. Heals/taps are nice but have not scaled with the game in any way. 

That aside i dont understand why SK and pally dps should be any different really. They have different abilities sure..but over all dps should(?) be the same i would think. Is it the SU thing?..If so i wonder if pallys would give it up to be on par dpswise with SKs since there isnt much in the way of undead usually to use the ability on. Im sure you would see some say yes and some say no.

Hope you enjoyed that one BB..i sure did.

On a personal note ive always seen the SK as a class to lay the smack down on mobs where the paladin is the guy who can stand up and take the smack HT versus LH, dots / nukes versus heals etc (undeads excepted from my opinion here).

About parse my best run is 1200 dps in full t5 gear (group of course) fabled pet weapon + 7 dmg aug.

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

Fyndal wrote:

For raids, yes, we do stink at this point in current content against comparably geared/aa other classes. The things I stated we need would help alleviate that a lot. Giving paladins back their group heal/curing raid role we had from luclin through TBS would be nice.

why do you feel paladins are having problems at the raid level?
coming from the perspective of an sk, i've never seen paladins as my competitor, but rather my companion - they can do things i can't, and vice versa.
looking at, just for example, SoF and SoD raiding - there isn't an extremely high volume of 'cluster' adds (like there were in TBS and TSS, for example) on various events, so the one serious advantage sks have over paladins is largely (though not completely, since some events do have them) mitigated - and in SoF in particular, being able to stun-mitigate raid targets to 0 dps is HUGE, and allows pallies total dominance as the OT tank for those events.

i've always found it kind of odd that a vocal part of the paladin community wants to turn the paladin raid role into being basically a cleric bot, doing inefficient heals and casting cures on people and nothing else. what you guys really need to do is stand up, bitchslap the jackarsed morons in the SK community who killed directed force, and get yourself some reliable on-demand AE capability.

I'm in shock I actually agree with a Shadow Knight on something.  You are spot on.

Weakly geared paladins seem to cling to this imaginary raid role of "Emergency Healer/Curer" and it really hurts our class every single beta because our we have no focus when asking for new/different things in beta.  As you said this group is also extremely vocal trying to turn this class into a very weak priest.  My darkest days as a paladin were in luclin when we were forced to play a weak priest because of the limited availability of cure curse. Brrrr /shiver.  If I wanted to heal/cure I believe I would have picked a priest.

Paladins are not awful on raids but we are one of the weakest classes on raids right now (I don't think any class that is well played is "awful" atm).  We need stronger passive mitigation and some kind of AE tanking ability to be a competitive tank (even though there is hardly a lack of raid space these days in EQ).

Ricodemus wrote:

Woodelfous-ToN wrote:

Since patch last patch druids have been pretty much pushed back to a solo class.  If a group is looking for a healer, you have the choice between sending a tell to a druid and waiting for he/she to arrive, or you can just click a button and pop a merc.....  I always pop the merc when i'm playing my monk if no clerics and my druid isn't loaded up.  I'm sure not going to waste my time messing around with a druid.  It's just not worth it.  I'll take a shammie or a cleric any day before I invite a druid.  Shammie will provide more DPS to the group, and endless mana....and of corse clerics are what they are.... the best healers in the game...as it should be....  So the question is why have a druid in the group at all?  Woot a second rate healer that does crap dps. 

I'm sympathetic to the plight of druids, but how can you justify that druids now need more to offer groups but clerics don't?  Druid healing now can usually get the job done just as well as cleric healing.  If bringing adequate healing to a group isn't worth much these days, best healing isn't worth much more.  Druids still have better dbs than clerics, plus snare, tracking, ports, evac...  Groups routinely use druids for these abilities, far more than they use clerics to tank or to pull.

Ask yourself this - What if you got no more dps, no more utility, but instead got absolute healing parity with clerics?  Would you be satisfied with absolute healing parity?  If yes, then why are no druids pushing for anything like this?  If no, then do you really expect clerics to be satisfied now?

If looking for a primary healer, it's going to be a main cleric first, and a merc second.  If I have a cleric my monk can get crazy with the pulls and tank doesn't get pwned.  I will agree that the need for a cleric has dropped.  But much more for a druid than a cleric.  Druid DPS got spanked with a nerf bat so there is no use in having one in group.  Druids are not used for ports, snares, evacs in groups.  I havent been recruited in to a group for any of those reasons since before OoW.  Ports were made useless by the guild portal.  Snares have been farmed out to over half of the classes in EQ. Evac doesn't matter because it doesn't take long to get back up and running any how...though I don't think I really want to be in a group that thinks there is a serious need for an evacer lol sounds like they are expecting several shipments of fail from one or more members of the group.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Look at the class innate procs based on the new AAs for the next expansion:

Warrior: proc for 1100 hate

Paladin: proc for 800 heal

Rogue: proc for -1000 hate

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Any effort to insist on comparing these ability will just be a repeat of the Summer/Winter nerf.  It's pretty clear that the lifetap is not scaling like the devs thought it would.  At some point they'll actually play the game and notice that the lifetap is way more than it ever should be.  That said things can go unfixed for a very long time, and this isn't anywhere near the top of things that are imbalanced right now.

 

 

Are you on crack? The proc rate was reduced substantially to allow for the amount to be increased through AA. They are well aware of the current proc number, and proc rate.

Proc amount means nothing, its proc RATE.

Hulkling wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Now based on this pattern, what would you think the SK's intended proc which is a lifetap should be?  It has to be less than an 800 heal because it's also a damage.  The general rule has lifetap at roughly half the potency of a heal so it should be a lifetap for 400.  I don't know how all the modifier for SK innate procs work, but I'm sure Paladins are not getting worked up over an ability that lifetaps for 400 damage.  From what SK post it sounds like the tap is at least for several thousand points of damage.

Did some testing with SK lifetaps last year.  They have 2:  The Shroud line (self-imbue proc spell) and Touch of the Cursed (AA passive innate).  Together they ain't so bad in thier base form.  But then theres the AA Soul Abrasion, that increases both of these lines well into the +1000 base range (don't remember exact numbers, but 1200ish and 1400ish come to mind). 

On top of that is a greater chance for a crit:  They have both Nuke crit AAs and Heal crit AAs....either one will double the heal (not overly concerned with the DPS).  Then of course theres the double crit that quadruples the heal, which is insane, but those are obviously few and far between.

I have mixed feelings on these.  On one hand, it drives me nuts that all they have to do is /attack on and get guaranteed heals.  On the other hand, they forked over a lot of AAs over the years for this.....plus I know how RNG abilities works, and they never come when you need them the most. 

And also the proc rate was reduced substantially to compensate.

Abazzagorath wrote:

BlankChatName wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

I'll trade slay undead right now, for the sk innate lifetaps they have atm. And I'm one of the biggest defenders of keeping slay undead as is.

The amount of healing from it has become extremely high due to increasing ranks. Brael true soloed Yar'lir, and that's great, but what is astonishing is the fact he did it in like 4 hours. His self buff/innate proc lifetaps kept him up for 4 hours. Yes, epic helped, and discs, but over that kind of time frame, it shows the amount of healing they get passively.

A comparison? Sk innate lifetap can crit for 8k heal. Paladin innate heal can crit for 1100.

 

You're seriously going to use Yar'lir as your evidence? We killed her last night, in a 10 minute or so fight with 5 people. I was the tank, she did about 400 DPs to me.

Naubi wrote:

All I mean is you can't really balance a general upgrade to paladin dps (i.e. something you'd have all the time) against that.

SK most of the time (on raid burns, raid buffed) are doing 2/3 to 4k tops dps.

 

"what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps"

That's true and this is why paladins need an increase (which the devs have said they are going to give you).

 

It would just be nice if paladins like grf/gilthanos/drayron etc would rub two braincells together and try and consider balance from the other side for once.

Like if paladins are unhappy because they can't dps well on events that don't need healing or offtanking. What about SKs, there are no events where we are needed to heal, because we can't.

How do they think it looks to SKs when they decide they should have the same (an upgrade isn't good enough) dps as us and/or ae aggro etc.

You have got to be kidding me.  Not only are you stating DPS values that are invalid by the topic of burn you are going to say that in a situation where more healing is needed a paladin will get picked over an SK?  If more healing is needed then a tank class we both will sit for a cleric/druid/shaman.  To think or suggest anything else is laughable.  Its also disgusting to suggest that dps will never be needed on an event.  By your own posts here you are comparing your avg sk with an avg group vs a paladins stated best possible dps burn, including all the buffs you just stated you never get.  Yes our dps should equal an SK PRE BURN.  Thats why you get all the cool little AAs to add to your dps burns, and we get healing and rezzing AA.  Who cares if a paladin has the same dps as an sk not burning or using his/her extra dps toys?  Thats like saying a paladin does the same dps as a rogue who never uses any of their abilities or backstab.  Its retarded to cry about. 

It is also retarded to talk completely out of context like you are.  Brael, an sk in my guild is always in my group, never a dps group and he puts out 7k burns, 4-5k non burn in a TANK GROUP.  I have hit 3200 for a 45 second window in the same tank group once.  Using everything possible.  Do I think I should hit 7k just like Brael? No I do not.  Do I think given the same exact buffs I should do 5k or maybe more vs his 7k+ sure.  Do I think paladins should get an AE agro yes I do.  Apparently so do you.  I love how you try and make me and a few other paladins look militant for asking for it when you say we "can" have it too though.  I never suggested paladins should have equal ae agro abilities nor do i want them to. I only want 1 AE agro ability.  Just ONE, although i feel your timer is a bit long.  I was thinking 30-45 second refresh and frankly it can cost 2k mana if you want I dont care. I never suggested (be very very careful of context) that paladins should equal or surpass SKs or warriors dps (thats for you too battleblade).

In some ways I do agree with Battleblade.  MANY of the things that are causing paladins to feel and BE lacking in raids and groups is the content in which we find ourselves today.  Not all of it but much of it.  I have in 1 post eluded to Paladins needing to be equal to SKS in dps IF ALL THINGS REMAINED THE SAME in the next expansion.  Thus I keep stressing context very strongly.  Lets be honest SoD was severely lacking in difficulty.  It required far less skill and manpower to defeat then anything we have seen before.  It takes less healing, less kiting, less offtanking then ever before.  The things that made paladins just as useful as SKs on a raid were gone with this expansion.  And if things continue to require less skill, and less manpower, and less of all the things our spell book (high 5 battleblade) make us useful for then the only thing left would be DPS.  So only in a case where my worst fears are realized do I think matching paladin and SK dps is the correct course of action.

Are paladins the worst off class right now?  I only raid so I really cant speak to the HUGE side of group paladins.  I dont want to speak for them at all.  As an officer that leads raids its the class i feel is most easily replaced, and that for sure is the content and my guilds structure/philosophy. I certainly dont want to nerf any class because of that.  The things above I feel are weaknesses for the class among others such as sorely lacking in a cure corruption targetabe role. 

I certainly do not feel like the few things I would like for Paladins would hurt the sk community.  I want a boost in dps, not equal to sks just a boost. If you burn 10k max dps I want to burn 7k max (thats best group best buffs best gear). I would like just ONE ae agro tool/spell.  I think 10 minutes is a bit long honestly Naubi.  You have 4 ae tools now.  I only want one.  You can make it less hate, you can make it more mana. is 30-45 seconds refresh too much to ask for? I would like more efficient heals, but the heal upgrade the rest of the classes got you mentioned would handle that fine for me.  I would like to have a better ability to cure ALL types of detrimentals on my fellow group/raid members.  I would be happy to sit and discuss these things with you in detail Naubi if you want.  Why dont you tell me your side of how any of what I just suggested would hurt your class.  I even have a few ideas i think would be cool for your class.

Gilthanos <Triality>

Survey_ wrote:

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Maybe it happens a lot in your guild, but we have too many DPS classes that kick my butt on parses for us to sit one of them and put me in a DPS group. Why would we want to lower our guild DPS?

Curiousity, fun and morale would be the most compelling reasons.  Oh noes it would take 10 seconds longer to farm 2 Runes and alt gear from Queen Malarian with sub-optimal classes grouped with Bards.

Yeah, because sitting true DPS classes to put a knight in the DPS group is awesome for morale.

Survey_ wrote:

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

The only mob in current EQ that I can actually 'burn' on: Queen Malarian.

And she dies in 48 seconds. Woowoo, I can hit almost 7k once...and still be #21 on the parse.

Last mob in Tower 3 event, one Scryer, Tower 7 and Ganak.

I'm one of the tanks on Curator.

I tank the first Scryer.

Moving away from emotes + silence aura prevents burn on Brekt.

Ganak perhaps, but we don't do him often.

brd wrote:

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

Malleria wrote:

Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)

be fashionable.

btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).
this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:

Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449sec
DMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161sec
DMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117sec
DMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467sec
DMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111sec
DMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185sec
DMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118sec
DMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431sec
DMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)

those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'

just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.

1: you suck at dps ing

2: high sk parse (6k to 8k) is something a sk with more than 2 neurone can repeat as much as they want.

3: i can show you 700dps paladin parse and try making you believe it s reality too.

4:Afk/slack parse dont count  as dps parse.

There you go.

2. 7kish parse is doable yes, if your guild lacks DPS classes to the point you get a DPS group, and mana reiterate, and use intensity + glyph. Of course, every class in the game except paladin, druid, cleric can beat those numbers in the same setup.

You forgot bards there.

Its a common mistake, so won't blame you.

Nah, a bard can approach 9k these days.

Gilthanos wrote:

Naubi wrote:

All I mean is you can't really balance a general upgrade to paladin dps (i.e. something you'd have all the time) against that.

SK most of the time (on raid burns, raid buffed) are doing 2/3 to 4k tops dps.

 

"what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps"

That's true and this is why paladins need an increase (which the devs have said they are going to give you).

 

It would just be nice if paladins like grf/gilthanos/drayron etc would rub two braincells together and try and consider balance from the other side for once.

Like if paladins are unhappy because they can't dps well on events that don't need healing or offtanking. What about SKs, there are no events where we are needed to heal, because we can't.

How do they think it looks to SKs when they decide they should have the same (an upgrade isn't good enough) dps as us and/or ae aggro etc.

You have got to be kidding me.  Not only are you stating DPS values that are invalid by the topic of burn you are going to say that in a situation where more healing is needed a paladin will get picked over an SK?  If more healing is needed then a tank class we both will sit for a cleric/druid/shaman.  To think or suggest anything else is laughable.  Its also disgusting to suggest that dps will never be needed on an event.  By your own posts here you are comparing your avg sk with an avg group vs a paladins stated best possible dps burn, including all the buffs you just stated you never get.  Yes our dps should equal an SK PRE BURN.  Thats why you get all the cool little AAs to add to your dps burns, and we get healing and rezzing AA.  Who cares if a paladin has the same dps as an sk not burning or using his/her extra dps toys?  Thats like saying a paladin does the same dps as a rogue who never uses any of their abilities or backstab.  Its retarded to cry about. 

It is also retarded to talk completely out of context like you are.  Brael, an sk in my guild is always in my group, never a dps group and he puts out 7k burns, 4-5k non burn in a TANK GROUP.  I have hit 3200 for a 45 second window in the same tank group once.  Using everything possible.  Do I think I should hit 7k just like Brael? No I do not.  Do I think given the same exact buffs I should do 5k or maybe more vs his 7k+ sure.  Do I think paladins should get an AE agro yes I do.  Apparently so do you.  I love how you try and make me and a few other paladins look militant for asking for it when you say we "can" have it too though.  I never suggested paladins should have equal ae agro abilities nor do i want them to. I only want 1 AE agro ability.  Just ONE, although i feel your timer is a bit long.  I was thinking 30-45 second refresh and frankly it can cost 2k mana if you want I dont care. I never suggested (be very very careful of context) that paladins should equal or surpass SKs or warriors dps (thats for you too battleblade).

In some ways I do agree with Battleblade.  MANY of the things that are causing paladins to feel and BE lacking in raids and groups is the content in which we find ourselves today.  Not all of it but much of it.  I have in 1 post eluded to Paladins needing to be equal to SKS in dps IF ALL THINGS REMAINED THE SAME in the next expansion.  Thus I keep stressing context very strongly.  Lets be honest SoD was severely lacking in difficulty.  It required far less skill and manpower to defeat then anything we have seen before.  It takes less healing, less kiting, less offtanking then ever before.  The things that made paladins just as useful as SKs on a raid were gone with this expansion.  And if things continue to require less skill, and less manpower, and less of all the things our spell book (high 5 battleblade) make us useful for then the only thing left would be DPS.  So only in a case where my worst fears are realized do I think matching paladin and SK dps is the correct course of action.

Are paladins the worst off class right now?  I only raid so I really cant speak to the HUGE side of group paladins.  I dont want to speak for them at all.  As an officer that leads raids its the class i feel is most easily replaced, and that for sure is the content and my guilds structure/philosophy. I certainly dont want to nerf any class because of that.  The things above I feel are weaknesses for the class among others such as sorely lacking in a cure corruption targetabe role. 

I certainly do not feel like the few things I would like for Paladins would hurt the sk community.  I want a boost in dps, not equal to sks just a boost. If you burn 10k max dps I want to burn 7k max (thats best group best buffs best gear). I would like just ONE ae agro tool/spell.  I think 10 minutes is a bit long honestly Naubi.  You have 4 ae tools now.  I only want one.  You can make it less hate, you can make it more mana. is 30-45 seconds refresh too much to ask for? I would like more efficient heals, but the heal upgrade the rest of the classes got you mentioned would handle that fine for me.  I would like to have a better ability to cure ALL types of detrimentals on my fellow group/raid members.  I would be happy to sit and discuss these things with you in detail Naubi if you want.  Why dont you tell me your side of how any of what I just suggested would hurt your class.  I even have a few ideas i think would be cool for your class.

 

Gilthanos

Just one note, though I agree with most of your post here, stating 'well you get 4 of them' as basis for wanting 1 for yourself isn't valid.

I could say the same thing about your heal spells, how many do you get? I want one too, it's only fair. How about stuns? Give me one of those too, I'd love to have one. Can I get a root spell too please? Maybe a rez spell? Just one self cure please?

It's the slippery slope.

Note on AE aggro btw, if you want to aggro multiple mobs in a raid situation a little tip:

Heal the SK. We have a couple pallies who are quite adept at peeling piles of adds off me this way, even so much as to deflection tank 50 of them on Legacy events without a hitch. I understand pallies could use some help, mostly in the DPS department and I agree completely you need a burst DPS disc and to do more /attack on dps as well. So don't get me wrong here, not saying pallies don't need some love.

They do.

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Just one note, though I agree with most of your post here, stating 'well you get 4 of them' as basis for wanting 1 for yourself isn't valid.

I could say the same thing about your heal spells, how many do you get? I want one too, it's only fair. How about stuns? Give me one of those too, I'd love to have one. Can I get a root spell too please? Maybe a rez spell? Just one self cure please?

It's the slippery slope.

Note on AE aggro btw, if you want to aggro multiple mobs in a raid situation a little tip:

Heal the SK. We have a couple pallies who are quite adept at peeling piles of adds off me this way, even so much as to deflection tank 50 of them on Legacy events without a hitch. I understand pallies could use some help, mostly in the DPS department and I agree completely you need a burst DPS disc and to do more /attack on dps as well. So don't get me wrong here, not saying pallies don't need some love.

They do.

Ok granted, I didnt mean for it to sound like that but you are right it comes off like that and I didnt want it to.  My basis of saying you have 4 and I want only 1 was to state I dont want equality in AE agro.  I dont want to threaten your ae agro supremecy. I dont want AE agro based on the IDEA that sks have it therefore I want it.  And yes the healing method to pull agro off the sk is something I use all the time.  Its right now what we have to use.  That is why I want AE agro.  On any event with adds they have to break on the SK he is the point of the sword.  Fine with me really you can have it.  What everyone can see is that we DO have to pull adds off you though.  And while you have 4 tools, you may or may not load and use in conjunction with one another, I can with out a doubt guarantee they do not cost you 1601 and 1729 mana respectively for that agro.  Yes mine heal as well, and thats very powerful.  I am not saying I should be able to heal for that amount for 180 mana like you ae agro for.  Just that its not designed for the way we are being forced to use it.  And that costs us alot of wasted mana to agro mobs when we could/may need that later to actually heal.

Gilthanos

gilth,

the thing about brael is that when he gets those big burns, at the very least he's got flare - which evidently your encs are cool about giving him. also, your guild as a whole has enough DPS that his getting 7k is even possible.

what nobody who keeps throwing out these 'zomfg sks do 8k dps' slurs is doing is showing us what the actual DPS classes did in the same fight... or even how long the fight was.
i've had extensive conversations with brael regarding dps and burning, and his getting those numbers are a very unique product of your guild makeup, both in terms of fight duration and what buffs he has readily available to him.

i'll say again: sks have very nice (for a tank) burn capability for fights under 180 seconds with very specific buffs available to them - but acknowledging that and then trying to say 'okay well sks do 8k dps so paladins should too' is disengenuous at best, and utterly retarded at worst.

Valid point.  The real important thing to note though isnt really where the top end is or the length of that fight considering any DPS bump a paladin would get should have the same timers an SK would get.  So on en event Brael does get (hypothetical) 10k over 180 seconds.  I think I should get 7k.  You can basically consider all DPS I talk about to be that 180 seconds or less.  Also yes I cant compare my 3200 best parse ever to any of your parses Tearsin.  Nor could I compare any of your parses to Brael.  The point I was trying to make was paladin max dps was compared to sk avg raid group dps, and paladin being max buffed out vs an sk not having those buffs.  That also is disengenuous.

Gilthanos <Triality>

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Abazzagorath wrote:

BlankChatName wrote:

Zymosis wrote:

You forgot to factor in your massive lifetap procs.

This argument is somewhat disingenuous.  For years paladins have cried "Don't hold slay against us, procs are random".  And yet every time you guys point your fingers at shadowknights, it's at sk's random procs.  I know people here will rarely see reason, but this argument bugs the heck out of me every time I read it.

I'll trade slay undead right now, for the sk innate lifetaps they have atm. And I'm one of the biggest defenders of keeping slay undead as is.

The amount of healing from it has become extremely high due to increasing ranks. Brael true soloed Yar'lir, and that's great, but what is astonishing is the fact he did it in like 4 hours. His self buff/innate proc lifetaps kept him up for 4 hours. Yes, epic helped, and discs, but over that kind of time frame, it shows the amount of healing they get passively.

A comparison? Sk innate lifetap can crit for 8k heal. Paladin innate heal can crit for 1100.

 

You're seriously going to use Yar'lir as your evidence? We killed her last night, in a 10 minute or so fight with 5 people. I was the tank, she did about 400 DPs to me.

Go solo it. Then tell me how the 5-6 million damage you took over 4 hours, of which over half was healed via passive lifetaps, isn't powerful.

I know, you know, every sk knows, that your lifetaps (innate, not cast) plus your decrepit skin lines is vastly superior to paladin self healing and heal procs in terms of dealing with damage taken.

Our tunare line is a joke now. And while your version was nerfed just as bad, its far more powerful relative to ours, and you know it. Even beyond the "dmg not taken is more powerful than dmg taken then healed" factor, the scale of there is far different.

What gets me, is someone says "sk innate taps are really powerful healing", and the sk patrol runs in screaming "no no no! it stinks really!" and someone else comes in and goes "its really powerful, I'd trade X for it in a heartbeat", and instead of just saying "Yeah, its really powerful, has extremely strong synergy with our other abilities, AND is getting a really huge boost out of +spell dmg (way more than it should considering how they are systematically nerfing every spell that gets more than a small benefit from them) that gets multiplied into the heal and THEN you get +heal amount mod affecting the heal as well, and we love it!", you try and act as if its worthless.

You have ONE person in this thread even talking about whether it should or shouldn't be modified for you. You have NO ONE asking for the same ability. And yet you still have to try and downplay it.

Equal geared paladin vs you. Who has longer term survivability via mitigating and healing damage taken before you run out of mana? We both know the answer, and we both know its not even close at this point. And that's WRONG. You're supposed to get more dps and we're supposed to get more healing. Its irrelevant that your spell taps max out at worse efficiency and heal value compared to our heals, when your innate healing abilities that cost you zero mana actually make you get more healing out of the same time frame and quantity of mana used.