Fyndal wrote:
Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:Fyndal wrote: I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.Some of us actually utilize our abilities instead of whining about them.FYI, ruins of illslan shiliskins give 8% aa with lesson solo at 85. I kill 100+ true solo in half an hour easily. I do 140-150 with my bot shaman. If the pulls weren't so long it would be far better, as I spend probably 8 minutes of each lesson out pulling.
Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:
Fyndal wrote: I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.
I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...
Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.
Some of us actually utilize our abilities instead of whining about them.
FYI, ruins of illslan shiliskins give 8% aa with lesson solo at 85. I kill 100+ true solo in half an hour easily. I do 140-150 with my bot shaman. If the pulls weren't so long it would be far better, as I spend probably 8 minutes of each lesson out pulling.
Sorry, still don't believe it. Not for a second. As a Paladin I've solo'd in Illsalin just like most have...but I have to admit it's been a while. I guess I'll go check it out. See how I do. But my bet is upfront, you'll have to prove it not just say it.
Fyndal wrote:Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:Fyndal wrote: I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.Some of us actually utilize our abilities instead of whining about them.FYI, ruins of illslan shiliskins give 8% aa with lesson solo at 85. I kill 100+ true solo in half an hour easily. I do 140-150 with my bot shaman. If the pulls weren't so long it would be far better, as I spend probably 8 minutes of each lesson out pulling.Sorry, still don't believe it. Not for a second. As a Paladin I've solo'd in Illsalin just like most have...but I have to admit it's been a while. I guess I'll go check it out. See how I do. But my bet is upfront, you'll have to prove it not just say it.
Believe what you want. *shrug* I've counted the mobs up, and I've done thousands of aa there and PLed more than 10 people to 85 and hundreds of aa there. I even parsed it once to prove it to another paladin, like you, that underestimates what a paladin can do.
I still have the log, unfortunately I deleted most of the exp/faction messages because anytime a slay killed the mob, the special dmg message appeared after the faction/exp messages and caused the parser to double count it. But you can look at the start and end times:
[Thu Jan 29 19:03:20 2009] Auto attack is on.
[Thu Jan 29 19:36:17 2009] You have slain an Illsalin war mage!
Even though I deleted some of them when deleting the faction messages, there are still 97 "You have slain..." lines in whats left of the edited log.
Your Sustained DamagePerSecond Statistics - (idle threshold:10 sec; min dly:3; nonmelee thresh:180; nonmelee min:30) Total: 4197.32 Melee: 3840.48 Crushes(w/o specials): 1194.02 Crushes(w/ specials): 3640.50 Bashes(w/o specials): 75.75 Bashes(w/ specials): 216.91 Nonmelee: 298.07
There is my dps.
And that was *before* I modified my pull pattern (2 less pulls, bringing in more total mobs per unit time) to reduce downtime and before I upgraded to a crystallos raid weapon.
Before any non-paladin goes nuts over the sustained dps, that's due to ripostes. You pull 20 undead shiliskins and half of them die without me ever targetting them, from ripostes.
I usually keep 6 characters in group to PL people as fast as possible (the aa may be lame with 6, but the real exp for leveling is still decent, 14-17% or so at level 81 with 6 in group on lesson, 8-10% or so at level 84 with 6 in group on lesson. But I only actually use the shaman (for listlessness, champion, epic click, and heals).
The few times I have done it without the shaman there, I limit myself to 8 or less at a time mostly, but I also don't have to pull back to alts so they get exp, thus reducing downtime.
My pulls:
Set up in throne room in south west corner.
1) West ledge 2 mobs, 4 mobs at doorways northwest/west, 4 mobs around throne (10 mobs total)
2) East ledge 2 mobs, 4 mobs at doorways in centernorth/east, +2 wandering mobs (18 mobs total)
3) Battlemaster room, all at once, 4 mobs at battlemaster, 2 at southwest door leading to clergy room, 1 by northwest doorway, 2 by root, 8 between root and fake wall, sometimes high priest wandering ph (35-36 mobs total)
4) Clergy room + adjacent room, 10 total mobs (45-46 mobs total)
5) Go to arena ledge, pull shiliskins at all doorways, 8 total mobs at doorways, 7-8 zombies from top of steps, usually another wanderer at this point (51-53 mobs total)
6) Rest of zombies in the arena, 12 zombies left, sometimes ones below aggro and warp up also, (63-65 mobs total)
7) Go up to the room with named ph before the raid mob, 8 from that room, 11 mobs from room between it and arena, on the way back throne room has started respawning, aggro 2 at doorway leading from tunnel (84-86 mobs total)
pull #1 again, minus the 2 from doorway, (92-94 mobs total)
9) pull #2 again, (100-102 mobs total)
10) Battlemaster room again, (117-120 mobs total)
11) Clergy and adjacent room (127-129 mobs total)
This is what I usually do during lesson unless I'm feeling frisky and do even bigger pulls (like with a cleric alt in group to keep promised on me), thus kill faster and bring in the arena again, but lesson usually fades on that pull. But that brings it up to nearly 150 mobs on those days. 120 is about the minimum I do with shaman bot.
Let's go by the numbers quoted:
8% AA per mob with lesson
96 mobs in 33 minutes.
XP rate per hour = (96/33) * 60 * 0.08 = 13.96 AA/hour with lesson = 6.98 AA/hour without lesson.
Compared to the quoted 8-9 AA hour, you're looking at a 14% to 29% increased compared to the actual XP rate.
Reality has a tendency to get in the way of what people thought they're getting for AA. Not that 7 is bad, but it's quite a stretch to go from 7 to 9. By the way, your DPS suggest you could've killed a mob every ~12 seconds but you were only able to kill one every 20 seconds in reality. This means a very high amount of time was lost due to the pull, which is not surprising due to the quantity of mobs involved, which suggests adding more firepower or anything would not have increased the kill rate by much because you're already wasting 40% of the time pulling mobs just to do 96 mobs in 33 minutes.
AutomaticWarrior wrote:
Let's go by the numbers quoted:8% AA per mob with lesson96 mobs in 33 minutes.XP rate per hour = (96/33) * 60 * 0.08 = 13.96 AA/hour with lesson = 6.98 AA/hour without lesson.Compared to the quoted 8-9 AA hour, you're looking at a 14% to 29% increased compared to the actual XP rate.Reality has a tendency to get in the way of what people thought they're getting for AA. Not that 7 is bad, but it's quite a stretch to go from 7 to 9. By the way, your DPS suggest you could've killed a mob every ~12 seconds but you were only able to kill one every 20 seconds in reality. This means a very high amount of time was lost due to the pull, which is not surprising due to the quantity of mobs involved, which suggests adding more firepower or anything would not have increased the kill rate by much because you're already wasting 40% of the time pulling mobs just to do 96 mobs in 33 minutes.
Of course, lack of reading comprehension gets further in the way doesn't it? Did you not read where I said I edited the logs and deleted every instance of a slay killing a mob because the faction message appears between the melee hit line and the special attack line, and thus was inflating my dps by double counting slays? I deleted a bunch of "you have slain" lines when I was highlighting the lines the other lines. There was 97 left, not 97 kills total.
Jesus.
Survey_ wrote:
Worst Solo: RogueWorst Group: NecroWorst Raid: Beastlord
Worst Solo: Rogue
Worst Group: Necro
Worst Raid: Beastlord
Beastlord sure arent the worst raiders, our bsts our the 2nd or 3rd melee dps rogues monks then bsts
fuzzbuster wrote:
Survey_ wrote:Worst Solo: RogueWorst Group: NecroWorst Raid: BeastlordBeastlord sure arent the worst raiders, our bsts our the 2nd or 3rd melee dps rogues monks then bsts
At the high end, yes they are; or at least tied with Paladins. Both play an ultimately minor role in modern high end raiding.
Beastlord - their pets are just terrible now, and with GBA nerfed beyond reason during beta, their attributeable dps (or overall contribution through mgb/group paragons) is minor. Realisiticly could use an increase to their personal AND attributeable dps.
Paladin - the events lack a need. There's all of 1 event in all of tier3/4 where paladin healing could be considered a boon (Venom Lord, lots of ae damage), and no real events where single mob offtanking is required or couldn't be performed just fine by an SK/War. It isn't that Paladins don't have a place, they simply don't do anything of note better than an SK (who can handle multiple mobs at the same time better, and apply some marginal - and I do mean marginal - increase in raid dps) or Warriors (who simply mitigate better). Now, this obviously changes if there's undead available for SU, but... well, there's none this year. At all. And now that we're on a 12 month cycle, that's a long time to go without ever landing a Slay Undead on raids.
Crovack wrote:
QFT
Being a secondary tank is not a minor role in raids.
Having chosen a part Warrior/part Cleric, I don't think that you should be too shocked that Warriors mitigate better and Clerics heal better.
Which does not prevent the class from having a tanking role and/or a healing role in raids.
SK's AE aggro better? Great. Let an SK AE aggro and peal a mob off him and tank it. Even with less mitigation than a Warrior, that mob is tanked and you'll survive tanking it just fine.
Clerics heal better? The one in our group is healing one of the 4 tanks on the named splits. He has time to DArb, you can heal a lot of damage now with your group heal.
I agree with some of what you posted.
Versatile classes are only going to be as good in raids as the events provide scope for their versatility. Put in a mob that AE's or DT's - priest role. An undead boss mob - medium DPS role. Adds arriving 10 at a time during an event - an add tank clearing role. 8 named splits that have to be tanked simultaniously - an MT role.
While this expansion has not given Paladins in particular a chance to shine as much other than a less mitigating/less DPSing Warrior, that doesn't mean Paladins aren't a nearly godlike collection of capabilities with a huge amount of synergy. Nor that SOE has never let Paladins shine on events - they have.
It's an event design issue, not a class design one.
fuzzbuster wrote:Survey_ wrote:Worst Solo: RogueWorst Group: NecroWorst Raid: BeastlordBeastlord sure arent the worst raiders, our bsts our the 2nd or 3rd melee dps rogues monks then bstsAt the high end, yes they are; or at least tied with Paladins. Both play an ultimately minor role in modern high end raiding.Beastlord - their pets are just terrible now, and with GBA nerfed beyond reason during beta, their attributeable dps (or overall contribution through mgb/group paragons) is minor. Realisiticly could use an increase to their personal AND attributeable dps.Paladin - the events lack a need. There's all of 1 event in all of tier3/4 where paladin healing could be considered a boon (Venom Lord, lots of ae damage), and no real events where single mob offtanking is required or couldn't be performed just fine by an SK/War. It isn't that Paladins don't have a place, they simply don't do anything of note better than an SK (who can handle multiple mobs at the same time better, and apply some marginal - and I do mean marginal - increase in raid dps) or Warriors (who simply mitigate better). Now, this obviously changes if there's undead available for SU, but... well, there's none this year. At all. And now that we're on a 12 month cycle, that's a long time to go without ever landing a Slay Undead on raids.
Just be silent the devs are working hardcore to keep paladins in the stone age dont disturb them, and the vision say a rogue with both hes hands tied on hes back should do more dps on undeads than paladins.
Ah yes, Paladins should be the king of all DPS classes on undead, yet still maintain the same level of DPS as an SK. As well as better healing and equal mitigation. Statements of Paladins wanting more DPS than rogues on undead is exactly why people look at Paladins as a bunch of whiny, petulent @#$%#es... and I can't say I disagree with them. That's not 'balance' that's I wanna be God mode.
Oh, but we must protect our treasured slay undead... after all, it's doing us so much good! I mean... we can like kill Light Blues with it! SO MUCH FUN!!!!!
If it meant actually making Paladins a stronger class as a whole, I would be the first to watch Slay Undead burn in hades. Oh yes, it's such a fun ability! I mean... I think I saw it trigger a few times back when we were raiding MMM against undead Krond. Can't even remember the last time I've seen it trigger on an exp mob.
There's an obvious split in the Paladin community.
There are some Paladins that having choosen and played for many years a somewhat versatile tank/hybrid class would like instead to play the Warrior class by other (far superior) means.
There are others that chose the Paladin class because of differences and are perfectly happy playing a part Warrior/part Cleric. I've continued un-mothballing my Paladin alt precisely because of those differences.
Aggro "issues" - my alt has aggro weapons/uses EB augs, a Symbol of the Planesmaster, the new Rogue aggro poisons, and an EoA I mask (if I could get the Valorium belt, I'd use it in a flash).
Survivability "issues" - I gear favoring AC, use a 200AC shield (including the aug), have a nice collection of survivability assisting spells and abilities.
Healing "issues" - forgive me, but having cures, LoH, very nice healing spells etc. I've no healing issues. It's not my main role, but I use these capabilities (to great effect) every time I play.
DPS "issues" - While we are improving the DPS provided by 2H weapons, Knights will continue doing less DPS than Warriors and other pure melee. This is one of the costs of having a spellbook. A. I can read, B. I understand the reasonableness of the position.
And at every level for as long as I've had SU there are undead I can pwn. Those slays are a class defining ability just as central to the class as being able to cast heals on others rather than just ourselves.
When gearing and leveling/AAing the Pally I was ever mindful of SU. It was one of the first AA abilities I obtained (helpful in getting additional AA's). I sought out a big hitting 2Hander and a +7DMG aug for it because of SU.
Oh there is a legitimate DPS complaint by the priest/tank with a sword class. But it's not that SU prevents some from DPSing like a Warrior just as they aspire to tanking just like a Warrior - being Warriors with a different T-shirt.
It's that when the raid leader says "Burn" vs. live mobs there's no burn capability to be had.
Holyforge should function as Warrior Fellstrike vs. live mobs.
And for tradition's sake should provide a boost to Slay frequency when facing undead mobs.
The problem is not that Paladins haven't been sufficeintly generisized. The problem is that while they get unbelievable payoffs for their many not at all in the fighter archetype abilities (fighters ought not to be able to heal/cure others or nuke. Not at all - not one little bit)
the problem is that some would have all of the advantages of the tradeoffs and sacrifice on a pick and choose basis those few they believe (and others do not) they didn't get 100x the value they should have for making that trade.
I play my alt Paladin accepting a few immaterial or easily compensated for shortcomings and revel in each and every Warriors don't get this difference. Were it otherwise no Warrior would have a Paladin alt. But at least a few us us do and we enjoy the differences. Without them there would be only one tanking class - WarPallyShadowRangerMonk and he could do everything.
Battleblade-Xegony wrote:
You are being dumb, probably on purpose.
An SK is a 100% beter secondary tank, in every situation.
Paladin healing is so minor it doesn't count as an asset.
I beg to differ. If I agreed with you, I certainly would not have un-mothballed a Paladin alt and got him gear, 5 levels, and 500AA during the anniversary.
Warriors, SK's, and Paladins tank almost competely interchangably. Warriors retain the raid boss MT role atm primarily because of tradition and if Knights allow it to us (something which in all fairness is probably an event design issue).
I looked at all of the alledged shortcomings of the Paladin class and discovered nearly all of them could be offset with gear and effort. I listed them.
If one was really picky you could add to that list:
not really having an AE aggro ability but can fake one a bit.
and lacks the ability to effectively single pull mobs. But root pull is an awesome capability where it works.
Offsetting these lacks are 90% during combat res, cures, and seriously good heals that I've used in every group I've been in for many many years.
You don't value the pluses? Then sir, may I respectfully suggest that you (or your alt) picked the wrong class.
brd wrote:
Battleblade-Xegony wrote:Being a secondary tank is not a minor role in raids.You are being dumb, probably on purpose.An SK is a 100% beter secondary tank, in every situation.Paladin healing is so minor it doesn't count as an asset.
You're dumb.
Our paladins constantly tank Pallorax, just as good if not better then our Sk's, and our Paladins consistantly make heal parses, they even won a few over clerics.
The only thing paladins could ask for and no one could argue about is some sort of means to do some more dps. But to say they can't tank or heal is just retarded.
You are being dumb, probably on purpose.An SK is a 100% beter secondary tank, in every situation.Paladin healing is so minor it doesn't count as an asset.
this is outrageously incorrect:
1. paladins and sks have identical mitigation, baseline - we get an AC boost via our tap, if it lands (which is often a problem on raid mobs), whereas you get the vie effect from your tap which is arguably better in certain situations.
2. do we really need to have a discussion about stuns and root vs. snare *again*?
3. likewise do we need to go over the whole on-demand vs passive healing? though, considering you yes, yes we do... and it will be completely useless.
4. there are in fact multiple situations in the last few expansions where paladins are the superior OT due to their unique abilities (events 4 and 5 in solteris, a TON of of events in SoF, and several in SoD)
5. there are times when you need to stop and look at yourself in the mirror and realize that sometimes, internet memes exist for a reason. arguing with brd, or bouk, or several others around here really is like being in the special olympics.i'm going to retain what's left of my dignity and stop now.
Qulas_Druzzil wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say no one could argue about that.
This is a tank/priest afterall. Knights were generaly reminded that even with improvemts to 2Hdrs they would be doing less DPS than Warriors and other pure melees - that one of the costs of having a spellbook.
Want more DPS? SU is not what should be on the table. Res, LoH, cures, and every last heal in the spellbook should be. OK, maybe not LoH (which should have a refresh of 90 minutes) since that's class defining. But we're talking Ranger-lie heal here at most.
If no problem with devs addressing legimimate issues. Paladins should have a burst DPS ability vs. live mobs.
But using it vs. live mobs should lock out the ability to burst on undead.
Holyforge acting like Fellstrike vs. live and increasing Slay frequency vs. undead would work nicely.
Increase Pally DPS vs. live mobs? Sure just as soon as they are not a priest/tank with a sword. As soon as they didn't (as they should have) consign themselves to the very bottom of the melee DPS heirarchy by putting on the priestly robes.
I've no problem making the DPS vs. live mob "sacrifice" on my alt. I get plenty of compensation elsewhere - including priestly spells no fighter should be able to cast. We're I not willing to trade something for the advantages elsewhere I'd not have rolled a Paladin in the first place. DPS is that something that was sacrificed (an not being able to match Warrior unmatched survivability vs. the most dangerous mobs - all 12, 6, 0 of them atm).
We must have "Tank parity" (hides clerical spellbook)!!!!
Thanks for tank parity. We must have "DPS Parity" (hides clerical spellbook)!!!!
We need better heals (hides dps and tank parity)!!!
We don't nuke very well!!!!!
Heals of paladin "could" use a little boost, true, but saying it's so minor it does not count ... is completely false. They are not efficient, but it's not their purpose, they're here for "emergency" cases (not sure if it's the right word tho as you can backheal too in case of heavy AE, heavy damages on the MT etc...).
If you think heals should be usefull only if they're used to main heal in a group or raid situation, then yes paladin heals are useless, but it's not their job.
You're dumb.... and our Paladins consistantly make heal parses, they even won a few over clerics.
... and our Paladins consistantly make heal parses, they even won a few over clerics.
Then you must have some lousy lousy clerics.
And Battleblade bashing Paladins? This is new! When did this happen? Oh wait...
Are you serious? How the heck can an SK argue that paladins don't need an upgrade. Every reasonable person in eq knows that paladins have very little going for them vs. Sk's. Sk's are beginning to enter monk god mode territory yet you STILL have total jerks that would argue that paladins don't need a dps upgrade? Amazing.
This is the first time I've ever championed a paladin cause. Never played one beyond 1 or 2 kills and never will.
Guess I finally figured out how to gather all the broken lightbulbs in EQ with 2 posts.
Thancra wrote:
Your heals are so meaningless you'll always need a druid or shm to assist, and those can main heal everything.
To me that makes your heals irrelevant on raids.
And you are worse at your job (getting fast & huge agro) then SKs in every way. So why would anyone want you ?
Besides the cuddle factor of paladins of course ;p
This entire thread really seems to be demonstrating that it's the raid design which is wanting and not the classes.
Hybrids *ARE* the jack of all trades classes, that's just a fact from their role. If you didn't want a mix of abilities, at a lower level than the "pure" classes, then why did you pick a hybrid in the first place?
Just because the raid design generally needs lots of dps and doesn't need much offtanking, snaring, slowing, rooting, curing, tracking, etc it doesn't mean the way to balance the hybrids is by upping the dps to match the pure dps classes, or upping the heals to match the pure priest classes. That's just nonsense.
In a group context hybrids rock as there's only a few roles to fill and a class that can cover a lot of different roles is obviously a good choice. Ok so you can play the min/max game and not pick them in favour of another class, but frankly you'd be waiting forever to get that perfect group. People go with whoever is available at the time (either in guild or LFG, depending on your style).
If you have any complaint at all it's that your utility isn't as useful in raiding as it used to be. IMO that's where you should be asking for improvements.
If beastlords, rangers, paladins, etc gain DPS then basically the dps classes need to gain yet more or we all just merge into one class with different names. That's dull, boring, and ultimately will lead to people leaving in droves.
Brog
SK are just 5x better then paladins atm :p
At what?
Wyvernwill wrote:
brd wrote:SK are just 5x better then paladins atm :pAt what?
Being an OT on raids, group tank, solo XPer.
Again... How are they a better OT on raids?Sure, SKs can AE agro... how many raids are there that require multiple people AE Agro'ing to control the adds? None. Do SKs have better mitigation? No. It's a misconception at best, I've found more SKs that are die hard AC junkies than Paladins. Just because some numbnut doesn't gear properly, doesn't make one class better than another.
The question is... The beauty of Paladins is their heals are strong enough to OT without the necessity of a healer's attention, ever. Too bad SKs have to damage mobs to get healing, there are times where that is even possible to be a detriment to their ability to heal.
Group Tanking? Again... how?Because they can FD? Yeah, grouping with a tank that's FD splitting and bringing in mobs with a snare dot on them is so very great. Sure, when you are without an enchanter it's very helpful to bring singles... but let's face it... it's slow and cripples the group. Outside of that, SKs and Paladins pull exactly the same way, they just have different measures in how they handle excess.
Mitigation? Don't make me laugh. SKs have the exact same mitigation tables and the exact same available gear as Paladins. Bottom line. Nothing in their arsenal is superior to the arsenal for Paladins when it comes to mitigation.
DPS they have an edge and Paladins have an edge with a huge surplus of emergency healing.
Solo ... Yeah, you got it there. DPS is king, avoiding mispulls via FD is a huge bonus. Every where else though, SKs are not superior, merely another flavor.
Brogett wrote:
This entire thread really seems to be demonstrating that it's the raid design which is wanting and not the classes.Hybrids *ARE* the jack of all trades classes, that's just a fact from their role. If you didn't want a mix of abilities, at a lower level than the "pure" classes, then why did you pick a hybrid in the first place?Just because the raid design generally needs lots of dps and doesn't need much offtanking, snaring, slowing, rooting, curing, tracking, etc it doesn't mean the way to balance the hybrids is by upping the dps to match the pure dps classes, or upping the heals to match the pure priest classes. That's just nonsense.In a group context hybrids rock as there's only a few roles to fill and a class that can cover a lot of different roles is obviously a good choice. Ok so you can play the min/max game and not pick them in favour of another class, but frankly you'd be waiting forever to get that perfect group. People go with whoever is available at the time (either in guild or LFG, depending on your style).If you have any complaint at all it's that your utility isn't as useful in raiding as it used to be. IMO that's where you should be asking for improvements.If beastlords, rangers, paladins, etc gain DPS then basically the dps classes need to gain yet more or we all just merge into one class with different names. That's dull, boring, and ultimately will lead to people leaving in droves.Brog
You want to know what is nonsense? You arguing that hybrids are asking for equal heals to priests when not a single person has asked for that. All people are looking for is the same boost that druid/shaman heals last received. Some of you people are pieces of work.
Another thing what exactly is a pure dps class? Every freaking class in EQ has utility. These so called pure melee classes get nukes, dots, self heals, snares, mezzes etc. What the heck is a pure dps class in this day and age? It doesn't exist.
The question is... The beauty of Paladins is their heals are strong enough to OT without the necessity of a healer's attention, ever.
Sure!
If you're raiding the Citadel of Anguish at level 85...
But in the real world of any near top-ish kinda high-end raiding, that's not even remotely a true statement.
The problem with Paladin heals relative to OTing is that Paladin healing is only meaningful if whoever was supposed to be healing you died, was AFK, or just plain sucks. While these conditions obviously do happen, most successful raids don't operate on the assumption that your healers are totally stupid. If your healers are doing a competent job and you're dealing with a mob where killing it does not create a problem (Vish shadows are the only thing I can think of where this applies) then the only thing you need for OTing is aggro and DPS, and SK beat Paladin easily in both. Stunnable content obviously favors the Paladin but most stuff you care about are immune to stuns, at least while they're current.
Again... How are they a better OT on raids?Sure, SKs can AE agro... how many raids are there that require multiple people AE Agro'ing to control the adds? None. Do SKs have better mitigation? No. It's a misconception at best, .
Having the Choice of AE and regular is vastly superior imo but you asked how many raids REQUIRE AE taunt Zero. BUT is sure as brells helps and makes many raids a lot easier having multiple AE taunting tankes - you know they dont always live ~ BTW like How many raids require a brells caster, zero.
Well thats not entirely true not to mention you go OOM real quick and lots of SOD has 10K hitting adds and just one sizzle or interrupt and you are likely dead.
SK DPS these days is more then just an edge and more power to them. But the problem I have and IMO Paladin healing has not kept up in relation to the strides Shadow Knight DPS over the last couple of expasnions.
Wyvernwill wrote:brd wrote:SK are just 5x better then paladins atm :pAt what?Being an OT on raids, group tank, solo XPer.
The only reason that SK are a better solo exp'er currently is the lack of current undead camps. There will always be some in each class that exceed the curve, but if drop the top few percentile out of the distribution and give us Pal something actually worth soloing, and I don't think SK are even two times better, much less five times.
wow, now that the peanut gallery has done its business, and thank you battleblade for showing us a lack of intelligence to our class with your "alt". Since this entire thread seems to be targeting my favorite class "Paladins", lemme throw my 2 cents around.
Agro: Our single target agro is just 2 points under what Sk's AE agro adds up to, thus leaving sk's w/ single target agro tools too. Sk wins agro department in single and ae Hands Down. Oh and Group heals are NOT AE agro. if thats the case then clerics could be tanks too since they have group heals too. Lets put clerics out there ae agroin mobs and kiting mobs. Group Heals are intended as the name says they are..Group...Heal. The AE Agro portion of it is a detrimental side effect to prevent classes who use group heals from spamming group heals constantly to keep groups alive. Its to teach Control. Nothing more.
Tanking: Paladin tanking has mostly been targeted toward our class ability called Survivability. The ability to basically tank forever. Bursts are nice but that long reuse timer on ALL our spells makes it inefficient. With the high mana cost the reuse timer should be either lowered or removed and just make it a normal heal spell. If a pally wants to burn 10 bursts in a row and run oom in 30 sec let em do it. theyll end up being useless then. Aurora is good but the cast timer is a lil out there, non focus'able, non crit'able, and for some dumb reason requires us to be in a group to use (explain that one). non focus, non crit i wont argue but a lil shorter cast time for the mana cost AND removing that group stuff would be nice. Compared to an sk who can target a mob and use its 90% focus's and Lifetap a mob doing both Self healing AND damage.
Surviving 1 mob: Sk wins
Surviving Multiple mobs at the same time: Pally wins
DPS: Sk wins Uncontested. Slay is overrated. Other classes see a Huge slay and think we are DPS. Damage does not mean DPS. DPS stands for Damage Per Second. U get 1x 25k slay in a minute and nothing the rest of it, most classes can do 25k in less than 6 seconds and keep going. Seriously rest of ya, grow up there. Paladins got an undead nuke...WHooptie doo. 2 Crushes and 1 is worthless...
Stuns: Great in LOWER content where we really dont need them, Worthless on Yellow and above which is basically where every max level player plays.
Aah Yes Curing: 90% of content now is Corruption Based. Self cure is perfect atm. Curing someone else.....Takes too many cures to do that. Need an upgrade on this.
Heals: Shining Light: Worthless, Devout Touch: Ok only when healing others not in group and only playing a clerical role, altho its still underpowered. in no way able to keep anybody alive by itself...just a spotheal tool. Aurora (requires person in group and mana inefficent for a healing role), Burst: If ur healing someone multiple times with this u need to be shot. This is a tool only when ur attacking and u need a quick spot heal and u dont expect to heal anymore for a bit. HoT's: 90% of the time worthless. Ok for midfight to toss a HoT out there on someone and forget about them, but thats about it.
Overall to solve BOTH sides of the paladin communities issues, 3 Major things need to happen: 1) Heals: They need to come up, ALOT. Quit gimping every single heal we get into nonexistance (Hello Tunare line). Quit putting so many restrictions on it. We have mana pools for that. If we burn up our mana in the first 30 sec of a fight, then we have to either sit out or not cast until weve regennd some. Thats restriction enough. 2) Agro: The only Niche we have here is Quick Snappy Agro. Its not sustainable when in competition against the kings of agro (sk's), and very few knights are gonna fight a warrior on agro based on their defensive capabilites. Boost our single target agro's alot to where we cant be fought on it. 3) DPS: Give us some nukes that dont have hatred boosts on them too. at least 2. Not to many, not too few. And get us out of magic based on these, give us versatility. Just something on burn fights we can actually do more than turn on attack and walk away from keyboard. Also, Boost our innate class accuracy. Even w/ 150 item accuracy we still miss WAY too much. Or, Boost Holyforge ALOT. it should be an offensive disc and in its current form, its not. Something here needs boosted. I told an officer in my current guild once that if i made parses on somethin, he should give me a loot of my choosing. He laffed at first then jokingly thought it was a good idea. The point behind that is atm if a paladin makes a parse....its proof that other classes arent doing their jobs. Im not gona say it shouldnt be that way, cuz theres some classes we should neve beat. But the stereotype of a paladin being at the bottom every single time....is disgusting.
I played since 1999 so I know that:
Monks useless to EQ. I think Monks are the worst class, Rogues second worst
Rangers cannot survive and are just weak Druids
Druids and Necros Rule the Solo Game
Enchanters are now Useless thanks to Clarity Potions
Shaman are Druids with less Mana
Rogues.....Please, why were they even introduced to the game?? Useless
Paladins great tank when Warrior not around, Stun is great for aggro
Shadowknights - you might as be a Warrior
Wizards - Just mana drainers.....Useless
Warrior - Still best tank around
Beastlord - No CC, useless against more than one MOB
Mages - Great for 2-boxing or 3-boxing only
Berzerker - Why were they introduced to this game???
Clerics still best healers and bufferes. Always needed for groups and raids
this makes the assumption that:A. kiting isn't involved and therefor self regulation of one's HPB. there are not multiple tanks in the group, and/or the people taking damage only require 1 healer at a time and are not taking damage at the same time.C. patch heals are meaningless.
events 2 and 4 in solteris, stitch and the swarm of mummies event in TSS and what's-his-nuts the Black, with the big wolf add... brenda in the MMM raid, the 4 named during the fall of tosk raid, vallon and/or murdunk during the rallos returns raid... shall i keep going?there are tons of events that are best handled by most guilds utilizing kiting of some sort, where you don't want to damage the mob being kited, and where it's quite common to run out of range of the healers - or for them to be busy with other things.
if there's any complaint to be made, it's really about raid content not being suited to what paladins are capable of - and this comes back to a circular argument that's been had for other classes many times over the years:"well, this one thing we're really good at doesn't happen all the time, so we need to be super good at *everything else* to make up for it!"
Thebobo wrote:
bingo.
would be a nice idea for a Spire for paladins - make heals crit way more often, and crit for huge amounts when they do crit - that would be a very nice equivalent to what Sks have for dots.
Wyvernwill wrote:The question is... The beauty of Paladins is their heals are strong enough to OT without the necessity of a healer's attention, ever.Sure!If you're raiding the Citadel of Anguish at level 85...But in the real world of any near top-ish kinda high-end raiding, that's not even remotely a true statement.
Really? I self heal through the Kyv/RaTuk/Viltrik combo on Venom Lord frequently when we do the encounter with low numbers.
Yeah, it requires a lot of effort, and a lot of tools used spread over the three waves. It would be a joke with even just a single of those mobs. I've easily done the same thing when in the room groups.
I guess Korafax raids are now Anguish, eh?
RocBranTej wrote:
To sell Gates of Discord.
I have had many Paladins and SK's tell me that groups want Warriors instead of them. Think about it.....you have a Raid or just a nice group..........all you need are Warriors, Clerics, and Mages.
Then there is the solo game............that's Druids and Necro's.
Rest of classes useless.
When I palyed WoW for two years, i was amazed to see how powerful Blizzard made Rogues. But that was PvP. When I went with a Rogue in PVE, such as an instance, the Rogue was useless.
I think the Monk and Rogue classes are just gimmicks.
Healers have competing responsibilities. Paladin offtanks are easy to heal because they pitch in and help themselves. If you slip or need to focus on someone else who is in deep trouble they cover for you. It is an enormous help when everything goes bad all at once. SKs can tap and do this a bit too but it is far better with paladins who can even bail you out healing the whole group. I just don't see any great imbalance between the knights, just different strengths and different contributions to the group or raid. I really do see it as SKs bringing more aoe gathering power and dps vs. paladins being more able to cope on their own or cover for spotty healing, both when played with a clue get the job done.
The only thing SK's have on pallies is dps imo, and maybe ae taunt, which really is not needed if you have halfway intelligent people playing with you.
I am sorry but a SK does not tank or off tank better than a Pally, and vise versa. You can argue this fact as much as you want but numbers are numbers, math is math, and neither you nor anyone can argue numbers.
Pallies trade up the ae taunt / dps for heals, cures, res, etc... Always has been this way, always will.
Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:Wyvernwill wrote:The question is... The beauty of Paladins is their heals are strong enough to OT without the necessity of a healer's attention, ever.Sure!If you're raiding the Citadel of Anguish at level 85...But in the real world of any near top-ish kinda high-end raiding, that's not even remotely a true statement.Really? I self heal through the Kyv/RaTuk/Viltrik combo on Venom Lord frequently when we do the encounter with low numbers.Yeah, it requires a lot of effort, and a lot of tools used spread over the three waves. It would be a joke with even just a single of those mobs. I've easily done the same thing when in the room groups.I guess Korafax raids are now Anguish, eh?
Yeah yeah yeah...you're a super paladin with spectacular skills that never goes OOM. Heard it all before...
And, even if you are this god-almighty super paladin, most players aren't. Even if you can do what you claim, most can't.
fystsofury wrote:
brd wrote:Wyvernwill wrote:brd wrote:SK are just 5x better then paladins atm :pAt what?Being an OT on raids, group tank, solo XPer.The only thing SK's have on pallies is dps imo, and maybe ae taunt, which really is not needed if you have halfway intelligent people playing with you. I am sorry but a SK does not tank or off tank better than a Pally, and vise versa. You can argue this fact as much as you want but numbers are numbers, math is math, and neither you nor anyone can argue numbers.Pallies trade up the ae taunt / dps for heals, cures, res, etc... Always has been this way, always will.
In most current raids, there are very few mobs that need to be individualy offtanked. Paladins work great for events like FoS1, and even help on Venom Lord, but due to the fact that SKs CAN generate ae agro and Paladins CAN NOT generate ae agro, paladins fail to be able to effectively handle a position in the raid that an SK can. As far as healing goes, paladins tend to make for weaker healers than any other priest (clerics, druids, shaman) and very few, if any, raids require substantial amounts of added healing - well within what can be accomodated by a very moderate baseline number of priests.
The problem currently is that paladin dps is also lower than SK, and that simply put there are no undead trash, bosses, or otherwise to take advantage of SU. What this equates to is SKs being consistantly better dps, consistantly better ae off tanks, and at least equal single off tanking. The "healer" role of Paladins in terms of a raid is usually one that helps heal the entire group (venom lord is the only real raid where this is necessary, imo), or places where they're needed to cure (there simply aren't a *lot* of cures needed on any events either- nothing that 1 priest in a group can't cover anyway). If you have weaker shaman/druid than I can see paladins filling a better niche in some raid groups, but otherwise they're simply offtanks that have lower dps and no ae hate.
I can't see this being remedied in any easy way outside of revisiting the AE agro ability being discussed previously, but my full knowledge of that was limited due to not wanting to read through 400 pages of Pal Vs. Sk propoganda.
Not that I am disagreeing with what you said, but you are seeing it in the outlook of high end raiding. In which the pally extra heals do not mean much because the healers you have are all top notch for this most part. Not all guilds are like this. There is obviously a happy medium that needs to be reached, and it will not be balanced out at the high end.
Sk dps in the high end trumps the need of pally heals. Looking at it this way, why not just add in a ranger with some nice ac that can off tank? Pally class does need some luvin yes, but overall as a tank class, the point I was trying to make, they have equal tanking abilities.
Not that I am disagreeing with what you said, but you are seeing it in the outlook of high end raiding. In which the pally extra heals do not mean much because the healers you have are all top notch for this most part. Not all guilds are like this. There is obviously a happy medium that needs to be reached, and it will not be balanced out at the high end. Sk dps in the high end trumps the need of pally heals. Looking at it this way, why not just add in a ranger with some nice ac that can off tank? Pally class does need some luvin yes, but overall as a tank class, the point I was trying to make, they have equal tanking abilities.
Let's say the weakest mob that requires a dedicated healer hits for 5K, which incidentally is about the DPS of a Bloodfields mob but presumably a little bit lower because you'd be able to hit it with full debuffs, and the Knight will definitely tank it with a shield. Now if your dedicated healer can't deal with a mob that hits for 5K, you're pretty much already doomed. Sure you can keep yourself alive for a whlie as a Paladin if your healer has no clue, but it's still just a matter of time before you die. And the harder the mob hits the more dependent you are on your dedicated healer to keep your alive as opposed to yourself.
Tanks would like to think they're in control of their destiny, but they're not. If you can't trust your assigned healer(s) to keep you alive, then you're already dead. That's not to say you shouldn't do everything you can to make the job easier, but ultimately it's the healer(s) who are responsible for keeping tank alive, not the tank.
Selfheal through the lightning dudes in ToD and you are my man!
ive seen every other class here comment on both paladins and sk's....honestly where do any of the rest of the classes have the nerve to Compare the 2 of us when most of you have NEVER played the 2. You cant read the text of an ability and say you know it. You cant read the text of a class and be a master of it. A monk can talk about a monk in comparison to rogues, zerkers, etc.. They are melee dps and can determine their dps in reference to themselves. Knights (Sk and Pal) can determine each other. Them are the only 2 who should be talkinga bout knights. Now when it comes to tanking, 3 classes should be talking: War, Pal, Sk. Healing: Cle, Dru, Sham, Pal since they are the 4 classes that most if not all raid leaders will put in a group to either fully do or help out with healing. List goes on and on but i think point is made.
Knytul wrote:
wow, now that the peanut gallery has done its business, and thank you battleblade for showing us a lack of intelligence to our class with your "alt".
Later you suggest people who don't play a Knight don't discuss them.
1. I've played a Knight on and off for 10 years.
2. I suggest people who play a knight but either don't know anything or present a distorted view of those classes refrain from posting about them.
Aggro: Warrior, Paladin , and SK single target aggro are all different. Tanks do not "fight" with each other to see who produces the most aggro. Rather they aggro mobs and try to protect the frailer member of the party from getting hit - which all three clases can do. Git it?
The differences - Warrior at-will aggro abilities are comparatively slower refresh. Knights must spam aggro more but they can fire off an aggro spell, switch targets, and fire off another aggro spell on the new target in seconds. And of course the class with the Ward of Tunare line doesn't get AE taunt.
"Oh and Group heals are NOT AE agro. ... The AE Agro portion of it is a detrimental side effect to prevent classes who use group heals from spamming group heals constantly to keep groups alive. Its to teach Control. Nothing more."
And stuns are NOT aggro spells. The fact that they aggro is a detremental side effect. Oh wait, they FUNCTION as if they were aggro spells. They walk like a duck....
Tanking: "incomprehensible stream of meaningless double talk".
Warrior - Better mitigation
Paladin - Very good mitigation PLUS heals which can be cast on ANYONE, not just yourself.
SK - Very good mitigation PLUS lifetaps which only help yourself (and an unbelievably nice Epic)
DPS - one of the melee classes is going to be Tail End Charlie. Who do you suggest? Warrior - the master of offensive and defensive arms and armor who doesn't have a lot of group friendly utility, SK - tank/NECRO, or Paladin - priest/EMT/tank?
Unlike most burst DPS, Slays are not for 3 minutes out of 30. It all day long provided you are fighting undead. And it's not a paltry 4x normal damage, it's ~10x.
Stuns: vs. any content they can actually stun, they are incredibly overpowered. The last time I discussed this we discovered from a Paladin's supplied data that a single Paladin's chained stuns allowed avoiding more damage than Fortitude, Defensive, and the Warrior built in 5% mitigation advtantage all used every time they popped (Maddar/WoS).
Fortunately, it appears that devs already had figured this out and vs. most content stuns only provide extremely fast refresh at-will aggro events....the aggro of course being a "detrimental side effect".
"...just a spotheal tool."
It's just the Hope Diamond of totally outside the fighter archetype capabilities which inexplicably a fighter was given. It just has incredible synergy with tanking. Look how small it is..... And it's expensive too.
What Paladins need:
Absolutely nothing. It's like asking what additional luxury item needs to be provided in a Rolls Royce.
I do think the class could use a burst melee DPS discipline vs. live mobs, but that's more window dressing (IMO all melee classes should have one) than actual need.
Playing my Paladin I'm very confident that his aggro and tanking capability is up to snuff compared to other classes. And I'm more than happy to give up some DPS (which I don't even give up vs. undead mobs) to have access to some unbelievably good priest spells. If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't play the class - not even as a twink.
Make a mechamatic guardian group with the same 5 people, alternate the 6th as a top geared paladin or SK.
Let me know which one gets you faster experience, even if the halfway intelligent people you play with kill mobs 1 by 1.
