Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

Knytul wrote:

wow, now that the peanut gallery has done its business, and thank you battleblade for showing us a lack of intelligence to our class with your "alt".

Later you suggest people who don't play a Knight don't discuss them.

1. I've played a Knight on and off for 10 years. (u have an alt.  ur main is a warrior.  just because u made a 2nd toon to read the print on our aa's doesnt mean uve played a knight.)

2. I suggest people who play a knight but either don't know anything or present a distorted view of those classes refrain from posting about them.

Aggro: Warrior, Paladin , and SK single target aggro are all different. Tanks do not "fight" with each other to see who produces the most aggro. Rather they aggro mobs and try to protect the frailer member of the party from getting hit - which all three clases can do. Git it?  Dream on buddy.  Your speaking this from a Warrior point of view.  Some of us REAL knights can speak differently.

The differences - Warrior at-will aggro abilities are comparatively slower refresh. Knights must spam aggro more but they can fire off an aggro spell, switch targets, and fire off another aggro spell on the new target in seconds. And of course the class with the Ward of Tunare line doesn't get AE taunt.  Tunare has been nerfed to nonusefulness.  If thats whats keeping us from gettin ae taunt then by all means take it away.  i dont know ANY paladin who would argue that.  Sure we can switch targets and fire off an agro spell, doesnt mean we are gonna get that agro OR keep it for that matter.  Stun agro isnt THAT powerful.  Again a warrior point of view.

"Oh and Group heals are NOT AE agro.  ... The AE Agro portion of it is a detrimental side effect to prevent classes who use group heals from spamming group heals constantly to keep groups alive.  Its to teach Control.  Nothing more." 

And stuns are NOT aggro spells. The fact that they aggro is a detremental side effect. Oh wait, they FUNCTION as if they were aggro spells. They walk like a duck....  Stuns ARE agro spells for us.   That is their function.  If you go onto lucy and look up ANY of our stuns, you will see Hate Generated: Example being Force of Crying Seas: Hate generated 3349 at rank 2.  If you go into ANY group heal.  You wont find Hate Generated because why...THERE ISNT ANY.  Its the Side effect of healing the damage someone has taken.  If 6 people are in a group and hte paladin fires off a group heal, hes not gonna get this mass ae agro you have somewere in ur imagination.  Now if everybody is at 50% and that group heal is fired, hes gonna get some agro but its not ae..its agro being pulled off of them onto the paladin.  Its the misconception of AE agro.

Tanking: "incomprehensible stream of meaningless double talk".

Warrior - Better mitigation

Paladin - Very good mitigation PLUS heals which can be cast on ANYONE, not just yourself.  Heals casted on anyone in the tanking section.....Ingenius.

SK - Very good mitigation PLUS lifetaps which only help yourself (and an unbelievably nice Epic)  Lifetaps helping yourself..doing both Offense and Healing.  2 roles in 1 in the tanking role. 

DPS - one of the melee classes is going to be Tail End Charlie. Who do you suggest? Warrior - the master of offensive and defensive arms and armor who doesn't have a lot of group friendly utility, SK - tank/NECRO, or Paladin - priest/EMT/tank?  Nobody said we wanted to be on top of the spectrum.  What we ARE saying is there should be a difference between the classes yes, but the spread between paladins and the rest of the damage producing classes is far too great.

Unlike most burst DPS, Slays are not for 3 minutes out of 30. It all day long provided you are fighting undead. And it's not a paltry 4x normal damage, it's ~10x.

Stuns: vs. any content they can actually stun, they are incredibly overpowered. The last time I discussed this we discovered from a Paladin's supplied data that a single Paladin's chained stuns allowed avoiding more damage than Fortitude, Defensive, and the Warrior built in 5% mitigation advtantage all used every time they popped (Maddar/WoS).  Listening to Grrrf doesnt count.  Thats like asking you for paladin data.  Stuns are NOT overpowered when they are figured out in their content.  Stuns LAND on White and below.  Thats max level and below.  The Content grouped for Loot, progression, AND xp, is yellow and above.  Thus stuns not landing.  Now if you go down into Subpar content for max level, Yes they land.  But When a stun lands on a weak mob, that means that mob isnt fighting back and we dont RIPOSTE the mob.  Thus less damage produced, less damage received, longer fight.  Waste of Time.  Thus the creation of the Crushes.

Fortunately, it appears that devs already had figured this out and vs. most content stuns only provide extremely fast refresh at-will aggro events....the aggro of course being a "detrimental side effect".

"...just a spotheal tool."

It's just the Hope Diamond of totally outside the fighter archetype capabilities which inexplicably a fighter was given. It just has incredible synergy with tanking. Look how small it is..... And it's expensive too.

What Paladins need:

Absolutely nothing. It's like asking what additional luxury item needs to be provided in a Rolls Royce. Please tell me u made it past the 3rd grade?   You make a toon to read the SPells and AA"s and try to say we need nothing.  Dont quit ur day job.  Let the REAL knights handle this discussion.

I do think the class could use a burst melee DPS discipline vs. live mobs, but that's more window dressing (IMO all melee classes should have one) than actual need.  This is the first smart thing youve said all nite.../golfclap

Playing my Paladin I'm very confident that his aggro and tanking capability is up to snuff compared to other classes. And I'm more than happy to give up some DPS (which I don't even give up vs. undead mobs) to have access to some unbelievably good priest spells. If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't play the class - not even as a twink.  No, you created the toon to find a reason to come into these forums to poke your head around.  Seriously, leave it to the professionals.  When warrior information is needed or discussed, then itll be asked for.

Wyvernwill wrote:

Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:

Wyvernwill wrote:

The question is... The beauty of Paladins is their heals are strong enough to OT without the necessity of a healer's attention, ever.

Sure!

If you're raiding the Citadel of Anguish at level 85...

But in the real world of any near top-ish kinda high-end raiding, that's not even remotely a true statement.

 

I guess Korafax raids are now Anguish, eh?

 

They sure arent very far off difficulty wise.

Ah this thread reminds me of good old time ;p

BB spouting his usual crap, and a few not much brighter people debating with him.

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

Knytul wrote:

 

 

 

Dorf fight!!!

I guess when a caster has low HP aggro or could develop it that a heal is a heal.

When a Cleric has a DT on them but they're healing the MT, a cure is a cure.

When a fight isn't in the bag, a 90% res during combat looks pretty good.

When a frailer member of the raid is getting hit, the Paladin aggroing the mob (how do they do that with their 0 aggro ability???!!!) did good.

Just one more thing some Knights are better at than other classes - complaining their class sucks (sometimes very creatively) in hopes of obtaining an unneeded and unbalanced upgrade.

I likes the other cartoon better Naubi

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headqua...omics/00055.jpg

Naubi the Sk and Battleblade the Warrior come out of the woodwork to try to analyze a class they arent...How Cute.

Battleblade has played a Paladin.

Battleblade and Naubi have seen Paladins in action in endgame raids for at least 5 years.

It's really tough to claim suckness when anyone can play the class and discover it's untrue. But keep trying.

On second thought, maybe we're all right - give our points of view.

I know about the classes disadvantages but believe they can be addressed with gear or are unimportant/immaterial and that Paladins solo/molo well, are great in groups, and are valued in raids.

Perhaps your experiences have led you to different conclusions.

At any rate, Battleblade is going to log his Pally alt (who obviously sucks horribly and is not worth playing) and try soloing those Shiliskins that Abazzagorath was talking about. The undead Murkgliders in WoS I knew about (and took advantage of) and I've tried skellies in Demi. But the Shiliskins are new to me. Hope I can find a Shaman (Listless), not that they are a worthwhile class either.

While I have not read that majority of the thread one reoccurring idea flickered a few times; necros aren't very "good" raid dps. To those who are cursed with necros who fd in a corner and afk all raid, rest un-easy when I proclaim necros are the current BEST dps in both burst and sustained form without any competition from anyone, not even remote.

Wyvernwill wrote:

Ah yes, Paladins should be the king of all DPS classes on undead, yet still maintain the same level of DPS as an SK.  As well as better healing and equal mitigation.  Statements of Paladins wanting more DPS than rogues on undead is exactly why people look at Paladins as a bunch of whiny, petulent @#$%#es... and I can't say I disagree with them.  That's not 'balance' that's I wanna be God mode.

Oh, but we must protect our treasured slay undead... after all, it's doing us so much good!  I mean... we can like kill Light Blues with it!  SO MUCH FUN!!!!!

If it meant actually making Paladins a stronger class as a whole, I would be the first to watch Slay Undead burn in hades.  Oh yes, it's such a fun ability!  I mean... I think I saw it trigger a few times back when we were raiding MMM against undead Krond.  Can't even remember the last time I've seen it trigger on an exp mob.

And if you refere to my post try read, we dont come close not by a long streach on any dps class on undeads and STILL it needs to be reduced to be keept in in check.

Was a reason i mentioned hands tied on back.

Beastlord is the worst all-around class atm. I've played the class for 6 years and while I wouldn't re-roll the  class is the worst in game. I'm not going to list specifics, just answering the OP's question.

Raa wrote:

While I have not read that majority of the thread one reoccurring idea flickered a few times; necros aren't very "good" raid dps. To those who are cursed with necros who fd in a corner and afk all raid, rest un-easy when I proclaim necros are the current BEST dps in both burst and sustained form without any competition from anyone, not even remote.

Sorry, but that depends on what you describe as burst.  In 30 seconds, wizards win.  Period. Over 60-90s you'll see more competition. After 90s it simply comes down to allocation of resources (tricks, and the like) but a necro has the potential to keep a higher dps over a longer period of time - but they are not the "BEST" in both burst and sustained without any competition.  And necros will likely suffer the same fate as druids if SoE ever figures out how a certain ability is giving you a HUGE boost to dps that isn't intended to .

P.S. I believe most of the shots at necros was them being the worst class in a group setting. Not raids.

Knytul wrote:

ive seen every other class here comment on both paladins and sk's....honestly where do any of the rest of the classes have the nerve to Compare the 2 of us when most of you have NEVER played the 2.  You cant read the text of an ability and say you know it.  You cant read the text of a class and be a master of it.  A monk can talk about a monk in comparison to rogues, zerkers, etc..   They are melee dps and can determine their dps in reference to themselves.  Knights (Sk and Pal) can determine each other.  Them are the only 2 who should be talkinga bout knights.  Now when it comes to tanking, 3 classes should be talking: War, Pal, Sk.  Healing: Cle, Dru, Sham, Pal since they are the 4 classes that most if not all raid leaders will put in a group to either fully do or help out with healing.  List goes on and on but i think point is made.

Speak for yourself.  The rest of us can learn about the classes by doing groups and raids with them and observing what happens.  When it comes to tank durability no one is better placed to comment than the healer.

A well played paladin is an awesome sight.  If you have one of those in your group you won't be complaining about them and what they can do.  However, a poorly played paladin is a different story...just like any other class honestly.

It seems to me what people view as the weakest class usually comes down to their own personal playstyle.  If they can't imagine playing that type of toon...THAT is the weakest class....no matter whether the people who play that toon think.  I've heard just about every class called "the weakest" at various times in EQ (including my own), with probably the only exception being cleric. 

Also, DPS classes always seem to think their class is the worst if they aren't the top in the parse EVERY TIME...no matter what other skills or abilities they provide to a raid (rogues usually being the worst-regardless of all the other perks they get for being a rogue).

Karthos wrote:

You want to know what is nonsense? You arguing that hybrids are asking for equal heals to priests when not a single person has asked for that. All people are looking for is the same boost that druid/shaman heals last received. Some of you people are pieces of work.

Another thing what exactly is a pure dps class? Every freaking class in EQ has utility. These so called pure melee classes get nukes, dots, self heals, snares, mezzes etc. What the heck is a pure dps class in this day and age? It doesn't exist.

Aww come on - you know there are "pure" melee dps classes and hybrid dps classes. To say the rogues, monks, and berserkers have as much utility as rangers and beastlords is blinkered beyond belief. Our utility is all very very situational. As a rogue I get no long duration buffs, no heals, no nukes, a long reuse snare that isn't even good enough for group work let alone raid work. The dot is ok, but meant for group players I think - it's weak beyond belief compared to raid dps. The only real utility is a 1 tick mez, our CR ability (which means diddly squat in most raids). Things like pick locks or traps are useful once every few expansions, if that.

And maybe people weren't asking to equal priests, but people definitely have been asking for both better healing and better dps. Face it - you can't have everything.

Look at it this way. Taking dps as an example, what would you prefer out of these scenarios:

1) Status quo.

2) You gain dps, everyone else gains even more dps to keep the same ratios causing massive mudflation.

3) You gain dps, and all those you just passed quit the game and cause your guild to suffer lack of members.

Everything you ask for has to be considered in balance to other classes.

Torque1 wrote:

A well played paladin is an awesome sight.  If you have one of those in your group you won't be complaining about them and what they can do.  However, a poorly played paladin is a different story...just like any other class honestly.

It's the same with every class. A well played Paladin is an awesome sight. So is a well played SK. So is a well played Warrior or a well played Druid or a well played Necro. No difference. But when you stack Tank up against Tank, well played vs well played, Paladins come in last of those 3.

Now sure, if you want to stack a well played Paladin up against a mediocre or lousy SK, the Paladin will win hands down, but that's not what this discussion is about.

Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:

Torque1 wrote:

A well played paladin is an awesome sight.  If you have one of those in your group you won't be complaining about them and what they can do.  However, a poorly played paladin is a different story...just like any other class honestly.

It's the same with every class. A well played Paladin is an awesome sight. So is a well played SK. So is a well played Warrior or a well played Druid or a well played Necro. No difference. But when you stack Tank up against Tank, well played vs well played, Paladins come in last of those 3.

Now sure, if you want to stack a well played Paladin up against a mediocre or lousy SK, the Paladin will win hands down, but that's not what this discussion is about.

QFT.

Do I like my class? Still do, after all those years.

Do I think my class is broken and can't be played at all? No way, I can still function and do the job I am assigned to mainly (OT in raids, MT in groups).

Do I think my class is the weakest in all of EQ? Depends on the situation I suppose.

In groups paladins work, but the 2 other tank classes might help to kill stuff faster, thus for a min/max might be better. Still a paladin is a good enough tank to fulfill the role and his situational healing might help sometimes (rezz isn't an issue anymore since mercs).

In raids paladins can OT adds good enough (still lots of <3 for finally getting a deflection discipline), the problem is that SKs can do it better AND have the bonus of being a much higher DPS source. Modern EQ is more about DPS than ever before, so being low on DPS hurts in too many situations, thus paladins are among the first classes to get switched out for DPS in raids. The healing power of a paladin in raids is sadly enough falling too far behind as the spells haven't kept pace with the mudflation. Curing is a joke, I haven't even bothered memming a cure except self-cure (and of course Radiant Cure) in ages, so that rarely is an issue to actually keep a paladin inside a raid and cope with their lousy contribution on the DPS side of the equation.

Bottom line:

Paladins may be not the worst class in EQ over all, but they are undeniably the worst DPS in the game against living mobs (clerics out-DPS us when wanting to). They are mediocre DPS against undead (we have had 8 hour parses on test on undead with end game gear and 7th Vet AA running to clear up the myth of the God-DPS paladin against undead), so yes, my class does need some love to bring us closer to other classes on living mobs and maybe on par with the second rank DPS (wizards and rogues are way ahead anyway) on undead.

Our heals need some upgrades to keep in line with the inflation and a few minor tweaks to other stuff, but as said before we aren't broken or such.

Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:

wizards and rogues are way ahead anyway

No Necros or Mages in Raging Fury?

Delbaeth wrote:

Knytul wrote:

ive seen every other class here comment on both paladins and sk's....honestly where do any of the rest of the classes have the nerve to Compare the 2 of us when most of you have NEVER played the 2.  You cant read the text of an ability and say you know it.  You cant read the text of a class and be a master of it.  A monk can talk about a monk in comparison to rogues, zerkers, etc..   They are melee dps and can determine their dps in reference to themselves.  Knights (Sk and Pal) can determine each other.  Them are the only 2 who should be talkinga bout knights.  Now when it comes to tanking, 3 classes should be talking: War, Pal, Sk.  Healing: Cle, Dru, Sham, Pal since they are the 4 classes that most if not all raid leaders will put in a group to either fully do or help out with healing.  List goes on and on but i think point is made.

 

Speak for yourself.  The rest of us can learn about the classes by doing groups and raids with them and observing what happens.  When it comes to tank durability no one is better placed to comment than the healer.

 

ok, tanking: war pal sk and healers in reference to how much/well they heal them....ill stand corrected on that one.  But ill stand by the point of what i said.  A chanter for example doesnt have much right to talk about the majority of the tanking responsibilities of a war, pal, sk.  A chanter has its own roles and responsibilities to worry about.

How much more dps do sk's do than paladins on live mobs during burns? Most of our knights are too busy with adds to parse but last night one of our hardcore paladins ended up in a bard group and pushed out 2.6k on queen malarian fight. I've seen a group gear sk parse upwards of 4k in the arena on the parse dummies without bard buffs. What can they do on a burn 3 minuteish parse with a bard?

Karthos wrote:

How much more dps do sk's do than paladins on live mobs during burns? Most of our knights are too busy with adds to parse but last night one of our hardcore paladins ended up in a bard group and pushed out 2.6k on queen malarian fight. I've seen a group gear sk parse upwards of 4k in the arena on the parse dummies without bard buffs. What can they do on a burn 3 minuteish parse with a bard?

On a non-live mob, Paladins are usually in the tier below Warrior/SK(&bard).  Bard's typically push any class up one tier of DPS.  In a three min fight, I would assume a top geared pally would cap out around 3-3.5K (about the same as a bard without glyphs/dots).  They just don't have the same tools for "damage dealing" that SK's/Warriors & even bards have.  Their "burst" tools are (imo) generally catered to burst defensive, vice offense.

The general rule I see in "tiers" is:

Rogue/Zerk > Monk/Beast/Ranger > Sk/War/Bard > Paladin

Depending on discs, duration, and mob type that usually holds true but can vary a hair.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong at a conceptual level, just that it's what I see.

Paladins are in the cursed position of "someone has to be the worst," especially when it comes to DPS which is the one measurable feature in EQ.  From a base SWING DPS standpoint, they are on par with SK's.  It's just a question of whether their group utility is equal to an SK's personal utility.  No one will ever agree is the problem.

Karthos wrote:

How much more dps do sk's do than paladins on live mobs during burns? Most of our knights are too busy with adds to parse but last night one of our hardcore paladins ended up in a bard group and pushed out 2.6k on queen malarian fight. I've seen a group gear sk parse upwards of 4k in the arena on the parse dummies without bard buffs. What can they do on a burn 3 minuteish parse with a bard?

Talking about Paladins in a Burn situation is moot. Paladins have no real burn capability.

Crovack wrote:

Raa wrote:

While I have not read that majority of the thread one reoccurring idea flickered a few times; necros aren't very "good" raid dps. To those who are cursed with necros who fd in a corner and afk all raid, rest un-easy when I proclaim necros are the current BEST dps in both burst and sustained form without any competition from anyone, not even remote.

Sorry, but that depends on what you describe as burst.  In 30 seconds, wizards win.  Period. Over 60-90s you'll see more competition. After 90s it simply comes down to allocation of resources (tricks, and the like) but a necro has the potential to keep a higher dps over a longer period of time - but they are not the "BEST" in both burst and sustained without any competition.  And necros will likely suffer the same fate as druids if SoE ever figures out how a certain ability is giving you a HUGE boost to dps that isn't intended to .

P.S. I believe most of the shots at necros was them being the worst class in a group setting. Not raids.

All dps is relative.

Our necros sustain around 8-13k dps (500seconds) and have been able to burst around 23k dps (100seconds)

As far as their eneviatable nerf is concerned, i'm sure the community is aware that a 4.25 crit mod * 100% crit rate is a tad overpowered. As a rogue, I'm quite happy that casters have been lifted from their depression, but I hope the next expansion will make it a tad more ... even.

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

Unlike most burst DPS, Slays are not for 3 minutes out of 30. It all day long provided you are fighting undead. And it's not a paltry 4x normal damage, it's ~10x.

 

You post alot of drivel as usual and as usual you are extremly good at not mentioning stuff.

Yea slay work all day long on undead content and its a factor 10 (actually tis more) when it procs duma..

the proc rate is like 3 % or so, slay maxed dosnt even doubble the paladins dps.

the rest of the S..t you post is as full of factual missinformation but good work on it.

Bingo.  Battleblade is notorious for chopping up True data and moving it around to where it looks like he knows what hes talking about.  Its true, he dont.  He doesnt understand crap about the paladin class and i dont care if his alt has 5000 aa's in full Tower gear.  Any Tower raider can make an alt, powerlevel a bunch of aa's then eventuallyget it full of rot gear....Its experience that he wilL NEVER have as a paladin.  Its True Experiences that you cant buy Battleblade.  That you cant Manipulate.

Right, sure.

I've experience enough to know comments like:

Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:

Modern EQ is more about DPS than ever before, so being low on DPS hurts in too many situations, thus paladins are among the first classes to get switched out for DPS in raids.

For those guilds fortunate enough to have many more members than the usual raid size or players that have Wizzy alts, this IS a possiblility...

...on those exceedingly rare events like the Anniversary Sprint event where the speed of the kill is everything.

But that's not the case for the vast majority of EQ events. Tower is fairly easily killable in one raid day *and I'm not talking about raiding until 11PM either). So are the other events worthwhile doing in this expansion once you've reached the endgame.

Two raid days a week. Two.

And having all of a guild's Paladins sit down and substituting Wizzy twinks won't change a thing for the better. It'll still take 2 (short) raid days, except on some events where tanks grab several mobs at a time, you'll be short tanks.

and this...

Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:

(clerics out-DPS us when wanting to)

Your Clerics are out parsing Paladins in your raids? I highly doubt it. I think they are healing.

Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:

my class does need some love to bring us closer to other classes on living mobs and maybe on par with the second rank DPS (wizards and rogues are way ahead anyway) on undead.

No they don't less DPS was explicitly stated to be one of the costs of you having a spellbook. You got the, by a country mile, best healing of any of the Warrior hybrids that's what you got. And that's what you chose.

and this....

Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:

The healing power of a paladin in raids is sadly enough falling too far behind as the spells haven't kept pace with the mudflation.

Healing power? You did not chose a mainline healer either. You chose a combat medic/EMT spot healer with rather weak heals compared to mainline healers (was it 200HP's or 400HP's when Clerics were healing for 4K? I forget.) and one shinny healing ability - LoH.

are the usual Paladin godmode seeking BS.

We wants tank parity

AND DPS close to other classes vs. live mobs

AND maybe on par with the second rank DPSers vs. undead

AND better heals (lol as if LoH, a decent chance to crit heals for 6-8K and group heals cast after a DArb weren't enough)

While this...

Brogett wrote:

And maybe people weren't asking to equal priests, but people definitely have been asking for both better healing and better dps. Face it - you can't have everything.

....

Everything you ask for has to be considered in balance to other classes.

BINGO!!!! shows an understanding of the tactics.

Some Paladins do concider other classes-

They want tanking just under Warrior tanking and no mobs where it matters

AND they want heals just under the three mainline healing classes in addition to competative tanking.

AND they want close to the DPS others do vs. live mobs

AND second tier DPS (Mages, Beastlords, Monk?) vs undead.

Which sounds pretty sweet except "While we have improved the DPS produced by 2 handers Knights will continue to do less DPS than Warriors and pure meee. That's one of the costs of having a spell book."

As long as you can cast heals, resses, and cures, it's very likely to stay that way tank/priest.

Want a Warrior combat res? Let me spot bind wound you - you'll get low HP aggro otherwise. Warrior cure that DT otw.

Is it any wonder in the face of Tank Parity (and Knight Spellbook Superiority) I enjoy buffing with Sustanence of Tunare, breaking out a big honking 2Hander and getting burst DPS, not for 3 out of 30 minutes but for hours on end, and pwning undead solo often without a Merc? A little godmode is fun.

That would be with my woefully underpowered Pally btw. My Warrior main says, "Thanks for Mercs SOE - it only took you 9 years to acknowlege the power of being able to tank AND combat self-heal."

Yeah, those Shiliskins are pretty sweet. Thanks for the tip.

Paladin godmode seeking. LOL. Now I've heard it all.

Can we have some non biased comments in this thread. Sheesh and I don't even play a paladin but some of your comments are outright laughable.

I do play a Paladin (somewhat) and the laughable part is that those comments are fairly accurate.

In GoD there were exactly two group events that were difficult (not impossible) for Knights to tank and they were not needed for personal progression.

When SOE agreed to tune them down (the content was 5 levels too difficult), rather than give Knights a form of Defensive there was a flurry of "The End of the Knight Classes" threads and protests.

The result was "tank parity" with a class that was promised the unmatched ability to survive battle with the most dangerous mobs in Norrath (achieving this was announced with the release of DoN) and Knights receiving a "lesser form of Defensive" (direct SOE quote) - which was a Warrior "class defining ability which should not be shared" (SOE).

I suppose it's only natural if you roll a hybrid class to lurtch from wanting parity in tanking, to parity in tanking AND btw DPS, AND improved heals.

I suspect it won't happen. It would only be justifiable it Warriors were hybridized - almost all Warriors rolled the class to be the Primary Tank - able to hold aggro, heavy melee DPS, and unmatched tanking. And the creation of the Berserker class eliminated the possibility to give Warriors the Berserker-like abilities contained in the Phase 2 Melee Update which was scrapped.

And had it happened Warriors would be very Berserker-like higher DPS hybrids and Paladins lower DPS priestly hybrids - they likely would have had even less DPS parity. As it it the priestly nature of Paladins justifies significantly lower DPS than Warriors.

Well Neomongo.

Let's remember:

1. Frodlin asked for a Warrior capability that downward scaled like WoT, not to have WoT nerfed. I mostly said nada about the topic except to note Listless, WoT, big damage shields and light blues = an obviously broken situation. SOE nerfed WoT (and not nearly enough, but let's not quibble - I enjoy exploiting employing it on my Pally) instead of giving Warriors a similar ability.

2. That cultural armor was another case of obvious brokeness and SOE addressed it the best they could.

You might not like my (or Frodlin's) opinions, but on these two issues it appears they were right since the issues got addressed. (Which is not to say I couldn't be wrong about an issue. You happened to pick those two.).

I've always felt a bargain was reasonably well-balanced if you could live with either alternative.

I retired a Paladin and focused on a Warrior for the Primary Tank role in raids.

I still prefer playing a Paladin in groups. Versatility is both powerful and fun. Cocidering Paladins have multiple roles in raids including a lot of tanking, I think that's a fair bargain.

Mercs relieved an unfair to Warriors combat self-heal situation when soloing.

I don't think either class is broken or the worst in EQ or desperately needing fixes.

I do think Pallies should get a short melee DPS discipline vs. live mobs because it's only fair.

And I do think SOE needs to look at the spam aggro situation.

But the worst class in EQ? Don't make me laugh.

Nod, I have been on a crusade. A fairness crusade.

I play my pally (who's semi mid-tier raid geared atm but was 100% group geared in TSS) accepting the shortcomings I knew he would have and throughly enjoying his advantages.

So I see it as dead wrong to accept that bargain and then campaign for tank parity, increased DPS vs. live mobs, etc.

If at some point I couldnt accept Clerics healing so much better I'd roll a Cleric.

If at some point a Warrior's unmatched survivability and heavy melee DPS seemed overly advantageous compared to my nearly equal tanking AND bonus healing, I'd roll a Warrior - in fact, I did.

Should the Warrior classes limited repitore of responces vs. changing situations (lack of versatility) bother me, I play a Pally - and often do.

Would you like a Warrior combat res in this raid? How about a Warrior bind wound? Let me cure that DT Warrior-style....

Considering that you don't, have the grace to permit me better survivability (while you still have a tanking role in raids and can tank all group content) and my longstanding better DPS (not that I'm ever in a DPS group). It's only fair.

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

, internet memes exist for a reason. arguing with brd, or bouk, or several others around here really is like being in the special olympics.
i'm going to retain what's left of my dignity and stop now.

Do that mean you re going to keep your post full of stupid, bs,retardedness for EGN?

Thank god, will only have to deal with BB now i guess;p

1 troll down 1 to go.

90% of the people want paladin to get a decent boost so they be brought up  up to par.

And then there s the jealous and bitter people like BB and tearsin (well and frodlin ) who d rather see paladin class disapear so they can rule alone in that category, which is really sad.

Karthos wrote:

How much more dps do sk's do than paladins on live mobs during burns? Most of our knights are too busy with adds to parse but last night one of our hardcore paladins ended up in a bard group and pushed out 2.6k on queen malarian fight. I've seen a group gear sk parse upwards of 4k in the arena on the parse dummies without bard buffs. What can they do on a burn 3 minuteish parse with a bard?

during burns? quite substantially more - though how much depends on the length.

due to some AA's, if an sk is able to load up a dps spellset we can crank out pretty nice dps (for a hybrid tank) for about 3ish minutes - after which everything we have is used up and we're back to our baseline, which is a few hundred dps points higher than pallies if we're dropping all 6 of our dots (assuming equal gear/AA's between sk and pal).

don't let our ability to have moderately high numbers in extremely limited circumstances for short periods of time fool you - sk dps is higher than pally dps, yes, but not THAT much higher.

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

, internet memes exist for a reason. arguing with brd, or bouk, or several others around here really is like being in the special olympics.
i'm going to retain what's left of my dignity and stop now.

Do that mean you re going to keep your post full of stupid, bs,retardedness for EGN?

Thank god, will only have to deal with BB now i guess;p

1 troll down 1 to go.

90% of the people want paladin to get a decent boost so they be brought up  up to par.

And then there s the jealous and bitter people like BB and tearsin (well and frodlin ) who d rather see paladin class disapear so they can rule alone in that category, which is really sad.

seriously... do you have more than 2 active neurons and a piece of lint to rub together?
does your brain even attempt to process any of the things that you type? or is your thought process as woefully and abysmally pathetic as your grasp of the english language?
you have some kind of vendetta against me personally, and while i don't know why (and frankly, couldn't care less if you tried to bribe me into doing so) i do know that considering i'm probably one of the most ardently pro-paladin members of the sk community, it makes your little tiff with me all the more comical.

you've accused me of... well, nothing actually, besides vague hand-waving and dramatic sentimentality... but you've yet to point out what it is that i've ever said that makes me in any way against the paladin class - unless you're basing this little jihad of yours solely on the fact that i don't think paladin heals vs. sk taps are as messed up as you do.

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

, internet memes exist for a reason. arguing with brd, or bouk, or several others around here really is like being in the special olympics.
i'm going to retain what's left of my dignity and stop now.

Do that mean you re going to keep your post full of stupid, bs,retardedness for EGN?

Thank god, will only have to deal with BB now i guess;p

1 troll down 1 to go.

90% of the people want paladin to get a decent boost so they be brought up  up to par.

And then there s the jealous and bitter people like BB and tearsin (well and frodlin ) who d rather see paladin class disapear so they can rule alone in that category, which is really sad.

pathetic as your grasp of the english language?

Hail ,Grammar n4zi !

Are you so wrong that you can't even find anything else to say?

Lelaa wrote:

Paladins were cool in PoP.

Definitly, started going a bit downhill after dodh, and worse and worse after TSS.

Grrrrf wrote:

90% of the people want paladin to get a decent boost so they be brought up  up to par.

And then there s the jealous and bitter people like BB and tearsin (well and frodlin ) who d rather see paladin class disapear so they can rule alone in that category, which is really sad.

"Up to par" is significantly less DPS than Warriors

Less DPS is "one of the costs of having a [very nice priestly] spellbook"

"Jealousy and bitterness" is accepting that very nice spellbook and then campaigning to get tank parity based on 2 GoD group events not needed for personal progression.

Unbelievable "jealously and bitterness" is having obtained tank parity that should nver have been given to half-tank/half-clerics to then turn your attention on the poor Warrior classes rather meger but intended to be better than your's DPS.

It looks like yall have a new slogan -

Tank Parity/Up to Par DPS (and Spellbook Superiority).

Devs giving you tank parity you never should have had certainly encouraged you to go after the rest that is needed for 100% Warrior with a Bonus Clerical Spellbook. godmode (n) see Paladin.

Battleblade's post confusing me.

1) what is the "exploit" with wot ? It didn't allow anything new to be done with this ability, it just made the "little mobs" easier to do.

2) you say pally shouldn't get a better dps because of the heal ability (why not, even if that means no dps -> better in healing to compensate because at the moment it doesn't) then you say you're ok for a burst dps disc (or AA, whatever), which sounds reasonnably but will mean pally will get closer to other classes. So what do you choose ?

Thancra wrote:

Battleblade's post confusing me.

1) what is the "exploit" with wot ? It didn't allow anything new to be done with this ability, it just made the "little mobs" easier to do.

2) you say pally shouldn't get a better dps because of the heal ability (why not, even if that means no dps -> better in healing to compensate because at the moment it doesn't) then you say you're ok for a burst dps disc (or AA, whatever), which sounds reasonnably but will mean pally will get closer to other classes. So what do you choose ?

I dont think you should bother trying to understand him, you ll just waste your time.

Dont be silly.

The ability to off masses of light blue mobs for tradeskill drops, AA experence (see undead Murkgliders and Shiliskins), or faction using Listless, WoT, and big damage shields is an obvious huge advantage. You said it yourself, "easy". Devs reined it it a little (absolute evidence that it was unbalanced), but it's still very doable and still very advantaging.

Providing Paladins with a burst DPS discipline vs. live mobs is an appearance of fairness issue - all melee IMO ought to have a burst ability when the raid leader yells "Burn" and not stand there feeling useless.

Yes, on a burn Paladins will edge up closer to the DPS of other classes that don't have those lovely Clerical spellbooks. I suppose if devs were truely fair about it, they'd drop Pally normal DPS to compensate for giving them that added burn DPS.

Or if they were truly fair about it, they'd elevate Warrior (and Ranger) DPS, let the demi-Priests with swords enjoy their burst vs. live DPS and the 50% of Warrior DPS when not bursting that they probably should  have.

Priests that res, heal, and cure ought not to do decent DPS any more than Wizards should do decent healing. Especially priests that tank and have tank parity as well as priestly spell books.

Want a Warrior combat res? A big Warrior spot heal? A Warrior cure for that DT?

Paladins were told less DPS than Warriors and other pure melee was to be one of the costs of having a [very nice priestly] spellbook. That's right and fair and how it should continue to be.

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

Unbelievable "jealously and bitterness" is having obtained tank parity that should nver have been given to half-tank/half-clerics to then turn your attention on the poor Warrior classes rather meger but intended to be better than your's DPS.

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

 

Want a Warrior combat res?like merc?

 A big Warrior spot heal? potion,bp click, lon item? or pop your merc when moloing and get better xp ?

A Warrior cure for that DT? many cure aivable in different form, potion,immaculate shield etc,or well pop a merc if you re soloing.

 

Mercs don't work in instanced raid content. Even in group content Mercs don't combat res. If I die, my Merc dies. He doesn't res me where I was killed (unlike a Cleirc or Paladin in the group being able to).

I believe Paladins got Mercs too and Mercs do not eliminate the value of Paladin spells - Paladin spellbookectomy would however. Do you really want SOE to remove your spellbook? Remember - you'd still have Mercs, Immaculate Shields, Egg-shaped Pumice. I didn't think so.

Are you seriously saying me handing an over nuking Wizard one of my healing potions is equal to/has the same refresh rate as you healing them?

Immaculate shield cures 1 kind of detremental. And while I appreciate being able to cure Wing Lice in tower I seem to recall a lot more detrementals than that in raids.

Now if you want to talk giving Warriors the complete Paladin spellbook, manabar, and AA's THAT might be a fair trade. With the Warrior : Paladin ratio being 2:1 and many of us at ~6K AC Warriors might enjoy dominating your class.

Heck, many SK's would probably like to get in on that deal. After all they've had to try to compete with your powerful at-will heal anybody heals with lifetaps for years.

Heck, Clerics were far more affected by Cleric Mercs than Pallies - I'll bet they'd like Tank Parity/"On Par" DPS(and Spellbook Superiority) too.

We're not the same class. I'm sure you remembered that every time you clicked a res or heal spell for 10 years. I certainly do given I was unable to click those capabilties to my detrement for 10 years. (Unless of course I was playing my Pally).

And I more than feel justified in getting the unmatched ability to survive - even in group content (which I was cheated out of) and heavy melee DPS (which, given tank parity, is little enough "advantage").

The worst "class" in EQ right now is by far the mob.  Every other class by comparison is just so stupid over powered at the moment, the poor bastards don't stand a chance. 

This battleboob person is a real piece of work. ANYTHING that brings other classes closer in parity to warriors he will argue and argue against. He is clearly the most biased person I've ever seen. Its outrageous. Do Devs actually listen to what a player like this has to say? If so thats a tragedy.

The argument the sane people here are having is that Paladins are currently underpowered relative to Sk's. This has nothing to do with warriors. Warriors are as you put it "godmode" when raid geared and thats without a substantial of utility. This priest book that you keep referencing is also known as UTILITY. Utility is something that the Sk class also has. They in fact have what many consider better utility than paladins. Look it up if you are still confused about this.

boukk_sebilis wrote:

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

 

Want a Warrior combat res?like merc?

 A big Warrior spot heal? potion,bp click, lon item? or pop your merc when moloing and get better xp ?

A Warrior cure for that DT? many cure aivable in different form, potion,immaculate shield etc,or well pop a merc if you re soloing.

 

 

mercs do not battle rez, they don't cure DT's, they don't go into "raid flagged" instances .... not sure what a spot heal has to do with better xp but ok, whatever.. besides if you are "moloing" your merc is already out

lol all this crap talk from battleblade seems more like hes trying to seek out Godmode for warriors....AGAIN

Nope, just -

Master of offensive and defensive arms and armor, heavy melee DPS, 120/100/80 adjusted for massive increases in spell impact where Knights continue doing less DPS than Warriors and other pure melee as a cost for having their spellbooks (for as long as they have spellbooks).

Able to keep mobs focused on us and frailer party members safe from harm.

And the unmatched ability to survive (in contrast to merely requiring a little less healing) versus most dangerous mobs in group and raid content.

While the half-warrior hybrids get to enjoy the versatility their spellbooks give them, lesser tanking, and lesser DPS (excepting Rangers who probably should do more DPS than Warriors given that Knights campaigned successfully to deprive them of their Warrior/tank heritage completely).

Want a Warrior combat res? A Warior heal (here, drink this potion - sorry about the refresh rate)? A Warrior cure (death cures all ills - be patient sir)? I don't think so.

Y'all have tank parity in group content and massive utility. Given all that Warriors have left is better DPS to offset the power of your spellbooks (the creation of the Berserker class closed off the possibility of hybridizing Warriors and even IF we got the Melee Phase 2 Update Berserker-like abilities, we'd still outdamage the priest/tank) it should continue to stand - always.

I realize eliminating all areas of Warrior advantage (which are pretty thin tbh) over the part melee/part caster hybrid classes while retaining all the advantages of your spelbooks is the easiest route to godmode for y'all, but I don't think making Knights an elite/more powerful version of Warriors is going to happen in this game.

The tradeoff of lesser tanking and lesser DPS (except vs. undead of course) for teh spellbook IMO actually heavily favors Paladins in group content (given that Warrior tanking advantage was eliminated by "Tank Parity) - that's why I, a Warrior, have a Paladin alt and enjoy playing him when I can and I'm not raiding with my main.

I am pretty sure most of us SKs are happy where we are now, no need to trade.

BryanPost wrote:

I am pretty sure most of us SKs are happy where we are now, no need to trade.

#1 sign your class is overpowered!