You are joking, right?

Hulkling wrote:

Gwyddon_7th wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless. It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion. But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

lets hope one day the figure that out with defensive and even up the ability to tank raid mobs for all tank classes.

Thats never going to happen. The entire raid scene is designed around defensive.

yet obviously knights are still way overpowered compared to warriors.

look at all the stuff they can kind do, which another class can do better!!!!!

look at all the classes that can tank better then warriors under defensive yet still provide significant dps and alot of disc/AA utilities which grow each expansion.

oh wait, nm they don't exist.

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

Gwyddon_7th wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I think arguing about SK taps is meaningless. It's going to be something like the Winter/Summer nerf where one day a dev actually looks at the number SK procs for and will be like 'How did this ever happen?' and it will get nerfed to oblivion. But until then SK can have a lot of fun with their procs.

lets hope one day the figure that out with defensive and even up the ability to tank raid mobs for all tank classes.

Unfortunately I don't think they'll ever figure this out, and I think it really does suck because as long as Warriors have an equivalent of 'IWIN' button there's really no point to talk about balance amongst tanks.

i'll agree with you on that atleast.

dragonlorre wrote:

One thing i have never understood is why a war should have more dps than knights period. If you take a look from the mitigation side it seems melee dps scales from.....

Takes massive hits and doesnt do much damage to....

Cant take hits for beans and causes alot of damage.

Using that as an example, obviously rogues are going to cause alot more damage than a war. BUT though the gap is smaller knights do have less mitigation than wars and as such should be slightly higher imo.

In other words using "our friends" numbers it should be....

War 80%

Knights 100%

And so on....

Yeah yeah spellbook. Wars have one too so that argument is old and useless now. And 90 or 96%..who really cares when you are max level? As for buffs and utility...yeah..lots running around with pally buffs instead of cleric ones....Heals?..though they are nice and do help...unless they( and most classes who arent priests with heals to be honest) get lucky and get a few crit ones (and even then) they arent very useful imo. Take my necro for example..SKs i assume to be sort of the same...after a couple of hits or a large AE or something, there is nothing like spamming a tap over and over hoping for a crit to get your hps back. Heals/taps are nice but have not scaled with the game in any way. 

That aside i dont understand why SK and pally dps should be any different really. They have different abilities sure..but over all dps should(?) be the same i would think. Is it the SU thing?..If so i wonder if pallys would give it up to be on par dpswise with SKs since there isnt much in the way of undead usually to use the ability on. Im sure you would see some say yes and some say no.

Hope you enjoyed that one BB..i sure did.

There are apparently a lot of things you don't understand, not just one.

dragonlorre wrote:

One thing i have never understood is why a war should have more dps than knights period.

Because as restated (it was also said very early in EQ) when damage bonuses on 2Hdrs were improved - Knights will continue doing less damage than Warriors and other pure melee. That's one of the costs of you having a spell book.

It's far from an old and useless argument:

1. You're hybrids and are not intended parity with your parent classes in their areas of specialization.

2. In the case of SK's, you receive basic armed warfare and necromantic spells. It's understandble for your class to equal Warrior DPS when you are expending mana at a rate that can't be sustained and prohibits you from spending it on other than damage to do it.

3. In the case of Paladins, your secondary skill set is devoted to the healing arts. Your sword ought to be a bit better than a mace weilded by a Cleric (like SK's you took the basic armed warfare course/Clerics did not). But certainly nowhere near as good as a dagger wielded by a Rogue or a sword weilded by a Warrior.

In an earlier post someone commented about dunping the mana bar into damage.

This too goes to the class character thing. Paladins are a priest, not a Wizard (or Necro). Think about the kind of damage spells appropriate for a Cleric:

A DD, a better DD vs. undead, a reverse DS/Rune (don't hit my boys!!). It's weak and it should be weak. You aren't an offensive class, Paladins are a tanking "healadin". There is no mana fueled damage reasonable given your class character.

I have no issue whatsoever with adjusting Paladin DPS because they have not been where they should be in a longstanding DPS hierarchy. But you have to insure that the result is everybody in the right place in that hierarchy. You don't get there by concidering only Paladins (a healing class) and SK's (an offensive class).

For over two years I've suggested that Holyforge triggers a burst DPS discipline that is Fellstike-like vs. live mobs and increases the rate of slays vs. undead - with Fellstrike-like duration and refresh.

Like properly placing everyone in the traditional DPS hierarchy where they belong and have always been in relation to each other, giving Paladins a burst melee DPS ability is fair.

If you ask for fair, you should get it. (In the case of melee DPS you've been very unfair thus far. Very.)

Swain commented that Paladins have learned to ask for 10x more than they expect to get - expecting a stuffed pony ask for a Kentucky thoroughbred horse farm. My kid, spouce, or person I manage professionally asks that way, they get nada. Not what's reasonable - they get nothing.

That kind of conduct when the result could easily be tank parity (except for 1 or 2 raid boss mobs), "on par" DPS, and spellbook superiority is guaranteed to raise the hackles of classes that compete with your's.

Better IMO to emulate Warriors when they asked for "shields to be made more practical" and "a more convenient method of stopping runners (with major limitations)" publically and encouraged it to be debated by all concerned. We proposed things that were so reasonable that what we asked for was what we got and only a few soreheads questioned the outcome.

If the outcome is unfair (like WoT or the 135% healing benefit on your Epic) the chances are it'll be nerfed if you get it.

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Yeah, because sitting true DPS classes to put a knight in the DPS group is awesome for morale.

Yes, actually knowing something about your class is an asset.  The DPS class gets a credible basis for what the Bard/Shm/Ber combo adds to their parse assuming they actually try in the tank group and the Tank gets to parse higher than normal once a month during a boring summer of farm.

If you have 8 year olds who throw a hissy fit because "OMG, I don't have a Bard from Queen_Malarian_31 I hate you Ronak" it's a problem with the player and not juggling groups on occasion for a trivial farm event being done for the nth time.

Unclench and DPS on Curator once, imagine it's possible that your guild can finish off the event if you're behind the mob.  You might even have fun.  Or don't, only ever tank and if you feel like posting about SK DPS say "I don't know, I'd never stoop to trying to damage a mob and have little first hand knowledge of that facet of my class on raids."

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I'm pretty sure Soul Abrasion is just a multiplier on the effect of the taps.  I think what happened was devs started out lowballing the effect on the lifetap for shroud/TOTC (saw some earlier entries for TOTC at 50 HP lifetap... why even bother?), and rather than fixing it they just made some AA that multiplied those lifetap effects by 3 or whatever and called that even.

Also, TOTC has a cast time of 0 and recast of 45s.  With the spell damage mod formula this comes out to be about 6.5X mod.  Given the biggest TOTC has a base of only 490, that means you need something like ~70 spell damage to double the power of TOTC.  This is not unlike the paladin group heal that was healing for some absolutely insane amount of damage since it had some ridiculously high recast time.  Similar to the Winter/Summer nerf you got yet another unintended consequence of bogus cast/recast time ends up biting you in the face when combined with spell damage mods.

Soul Abrasion 6 is around 250%ish IIRC, but then it goes up to 12 ranks.  So its at least 3x multiplier for ToTC and Shroud.  SA was upgraded in both SoF and SoD....I'd be surprised if Devs weren't aware of the effects.

But, the 45 second recast on ToTC doesn't seem quite right, especially in light of the recent Ranger/Druid nerf.  It gives it a much higher bonus from + Spell Damage Mod3 (not sure if + Heal Amount Mod3 would also use the 45 second recast). 

I.E. if you have 100 spell damage, it puts an additional 640 on top of the base heal just from 1 ToTC proc.

I play a ranger so I think the ranger is the worst all around class. I was in a group and I couldn't heal and couldn't tank.

I want to be a cleric AND a warrior AND a druid, all in one. Thanks.

(hint: I'm not being serious. For this wiht legitimate complaints, please ignore my comments)

This is why SKs are leary of paladins getting upgrades similiar to abilities we have.

SKs have had procs since basically day one of EQ (pre kunark).

We have had a proc damage modifying aa line since aa were first in the game in luclin. 

And then... soon as paladins (and warriors too for automatic warrior it seems) the SK proc is overpowered because it's better?

Your classes didn't even have a proc until like 8 years after ours. I thought it was pretty much established and discussesed, and rediscussed in beta with prathun etc that sk procs are a basic feature of the class, yours are a new 'bonus' ability. They are not balanced against each other.

Why do you think SKs cringe at the thought of paladins (and, apparently, automatic warrior warriors) getting an ability similar to ours? Because we know that some of you will immediately decide "we've got it... now for phase two to get the exact same as SKs".

The reason your procs aren't nearly as good as SKs is because they aren't meant to be. What ever made you think they were?

Hulkling wrote:

I.E. if you have 100 spell damage, it puts an additional 640 on top of the base heal just from 1 ToTC proc.

except for the part where spell dmg can only mod a spell up to its base damage - and TOTC has a base damage of like 400 or so, meaning that spell dmg caps out at adding.... 400 damage (which is at 74, btw).

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

brd wrote:

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Grrrrf wrote:

Tearsin_Rain wrote:

Malleria wrote:

Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)

be fashionable.

btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).
this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:

Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449sec
DMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161sec
DMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117sec
DMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467sec
DMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111sec
DMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)

Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185sec
DMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)

Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118sec
DMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)

Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431sec
DMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)

those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'

just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.

1: you suck at dps ing

2: high sk parse (6k to 8k) is something a sk with more than 2 neurone can repeat as much as they want.

3: i can show you 700dps paladin parse and try making you believe it s reality too.

4:Afk/slack parse dont count  as dps parse.

There you go.

2. 7kish parse is doable yes, if your guild lacks DPS classes to the point you get a DPS group, and mana reiterate, and use intensity + glyph. Of course, every class in the game except paladin, druid, cleric can beat those numbers in the same setup.

You forgot bards there.

Its a common mistake, so won't blame you.

Nah, a bard can approach 9k these days.

Please provide parses to support this.

Show me 3-4 parses with bards around 9k dps, and I won't call you captain BS the rest of my days on this board.

I only skimmed the last couple pages of this thread but since my impressive awesomeness of own has been mentioned in two contexts now, I should probably respond to both of them myself, to give that whole first hand perspective.

First of all Yar Lir since it's the shorter thing to respond to.  I think I was the first to solo it, but since then several SK's have, it's hardly a challenging encounter, it's just boring.  Going by my parse, it took me 8572 seconds.  Since then people have done it quite a bit quicker, this is mainly because my spell lineup wasn't optimized for the fight so I didn't put out the damage that I could.  If I were to do it again the fight time would probably be cut in half.  A lot of my dps (1500 I believe) was eaten up by regen, this is apparent when looking at the parse and seeing I did over 17 million damage to get the kill... if my memory is right, YL only has 3.5 mil hp.

Regardless of who the SK that kills YL is however, or how fast/slow we do it, the one thing we have in common isn't that TotC/Shroud outheals the dps put out by YL (because it doesn't), it's that we make extensive use of Mortal Coil. Since TotC is being the scapegoat here, I'll go into detail on what MC does.  It's a killshot AA, it maxes at a 30% proc rate (rank 3), and when it fires gives us a leechcurse effect and an AC boost.  The current max level is a 2:48 (I think, it's around there) duration, 65% leechcurse effect, and something useless like 72 AC.

Why is MC relevant?  For those that don't know how the YL fight goes, YL goes through various cycles with the adds that fly off and explode (won't hit you if you're between YL and the door, or just under YL), a knockback, and some drake adds which despawn after a couple minutes.  The drake adds are the key here, they don't have a whole lot of HP and are high enough level to allow MC to proc, infact depending on their level, the ability to solo YL may be lost at 90 if we can no longer proc MC on them.  So for anyone that still doesn't get it, we kill those drakes, proc MC, and heal up all damage YL has done.  If we have some unlucky streaks for awhile, an epic click will fix us up.  Going by my YL parse, I took a combined 659 dps between the adds and YL.  Also, it wasn't lifetap procs that healed most of my damage, the vast majority of it was healed through leechcurse effects (MC mainly).  That's the whole strategy to kill it, TotC has next to no impact on the fight being soloable or not.

Now for the whole dps issue.  I'll be the first to admit I put out some pretty good dps, but I'll also immeaditly point out that it's only good dps for an SK.  I know the first reactions to seeing an SK do 7k dps are that SK's put out too much, SK's are overpowered, is underpowered, and so on but take a step back and think about this for a minute.  Our dps classes don't do 4k, 5k, or 6k like some tower guilds dps classes do.  Looking at some parses right now where I typically put out good dps if I get to dps that day, I'm seeing Berserkers at 18k, Rogues at 15k, Wizards at 15k, and Rangers at 12.5k.  When thinking about that scale, is an SK at 7k really all that much?  The truth is, until he quit a couple months ago, we had a Bard that would beat me on each and every parse.

Next, while I do put out nice dps it's also somewhat limited.  In truth, it's a bit more limited than melee discs, this is basically because of my manabar and the reliance on an Enchanter.  While neither of those are a big issue in raids, provided you're in a guild where the Enchanters actually do their jobs and give flare to the people that are most effective with it (insert attributable dps argument, that 1750 of my dps is really the Enchanters), the fact that I have to use my manabar, have an Enchanter, and sacrifice most of my spell gems (not to mention have an almost permanently greyed out spell bar) IS an issue, as those are significant hurdles to overcome in order to put out good dps in a group situation.

Furthermore, I'm in a guild where we have high attendance knights.  Some are Paladins, some are SK's, but if I want to dps, I have a bit of a luxury with being able to make our other SK's cover adds so that I can dps, or let Paladins do it.  Also, out of our normal raid schedule of 15 events, I'm able to stack dot's on multiple mobs (if I can dps) during 7 of the events and the truth is, that's a big boost.  With dot durations it's possible to keep a full set of dots on 3 mobs.  By doing that, my dot dps is tripled which makes for a pretty decent dps boost too.

Finally, I want to point out that most SK dps comes from spells.  Very little comes from melee.  Infact if I'm doing my job properly, only about 23% of my dps comes from melee, I'm using the Knight lance from tower with a 7 damage aug, and have ZERO melee loss due to instant spells.  So in short, my melee dps is really no better than a Paladins, in a way it's actually worse as I often have to remove melee dps buffs (yes, even when doing 7k) because they don't provide much of a boost.

Oh, and since I just thought of adding it on.  Giving an SK a Bard/Shaman/Enchanter group is a waste of your raids DPS.  Only 23% of our dps is boosted by overhaste, about 33% of our dps would be boosted if we're getting corruption/poison/magic focus songs for our dots.  The pet doesn't justify overhaste.  Storm Blade barely adjusts our dps, as the procs come at a cost to some of our other procs.  A Shaman epic, like overhaste only boosts 23% of our dps.  100% of our dps isn't boosted by twincast, and flare can be cast out of group.  If you're considering putting an SK in a dps group, put a Paladin there instead, you're going to get a slightly better return.  SK's don't benefit from them.

Hulkling wrote:

AutomaticWarrior wrote:

I'm pretty sure Soul Abrasion is just a multiplier on the effect of the taps.  I think what happened was devs started out lowballing the effect on the lifetap for shroud/TOTC (saw some earlier entries for TOTC at 50 HP lifetap... why even bother?), and rather than fixing it they just made some AA that multiplied those lifetap effects by 3 or whatever and called that even.

Also, TOTC has a cast time of 0 and recast of 45s.  With the spell damage mod formula this comes out to be about 6.5X mod.  Given the biggest TOTC has a base of only 490, that means you need something like ~70 spell damage to double the power of TOTC.  This is not unlike the paladin group heal that was healing for some absolutely insane amount of damage since it had some ridiculously high recast time.  Similar to the Winter/Summer nerf you got yet another unintended consequence of bogus cast/recast time ends up biting you in the face when combined with spell damage mods.

Soul Abrasion 6 is around 250%ish IIRC, but then it goes up to 12 ranks.  So its at least 3x multiplier for ToTC and Shroud.  SA was upgraded in both SoF and SoD....I'd be surprised if Devs weren't aware of the effects.

But, the 45 second recast on ToTC doesn't seem quite right, especially in light of the recent Ranger/Druid nerf.  It gives it a much higher bonus from + Spell Damage Mod3 (not sure if + Heal Amount Mod3 would also use the 45 second recast). 

I.E. if you have 100 spell damage, it puts an additional 640 on top of the base heal just from 1 ToTC proc.

SA is a 4.7 modifier.  While the additional damage can crit just as if it were base damage, it doesn't add to the base on TotC (or any other proc we have).  TotC has a very low base, as has been pointed out several times in this thread.  You can't gain a bonus due to 100 spell damage because it caps at... 72.

Your analogy is flawed because the Paladin AA had a high base.  Summers/Winter's also had a high base.  TotC has a low base.  And yes, the devs do know of the multiplier effect on TotC/SA, I've had several conversations with Nodyin and Rashere about it in the past when they were on AA's, and I'm sure I'll have conversations about it with Elidroth in the future.

As for the increase in SoF and SoD, in late TBS the proc rate on TotC was cut in half.  Then we were given some AA's that doubled it, plus some SD which you pointed out.  The overall effect was that the healing/sec went up about 30% from TSS levels.  Then it was nerfed again just before SoD came out, and we were given AA's which again doubled it.  This time it went up about 50% from SoF levels.  In both of those expansions SA/TotC (the combined effect is the overall consideration, though it still counts as two class AA's for us) was considered our major/big/ultimate/super/whatever class AA.  It was doubled twice but due to the nerfs, rather than having a 400% increase now since TBS it's actually only a 95% increase, which for a major AA line is a bit more in line with other classes.  That includes gear, if it lost the recast time it would actually need a rather large boost to the base to put it back in line as the values used for balancing it took the SD/HA boost into account for it's power.

Naubi wrote:

Why do you think SKs cringe at the thought of paladins (and automatic warrior warriors) getting an ability similar to ours? Because we know that some of you will immediately decide "we've got it... now for phase two to get the exact same as SKs".

Blessing of Life 1 is 120 base, with +60 increments each rank there after.  Only thing that modifies the base is Heal Adept.  The cast time is 0.00, so we get +1 heal no matter how high our +Heal Amount mod3 is.

Now compare that to Touch of the Cursed + Soul Abrasion + Damage Amount mod3 bonus with 45 sec Recast.

I highly doubt BoL will be catching up to ToTC any time soon.

Brael wrote:

Looking at some parses right now where I typically put out good dps if I get to dps that day, I'm seeing Berserkers at 18k, Rogues at 15k, Wizards at 15k, and Rangers at 12.5k.

You're looking at a parse with no Mages or Necros and the Zerks doing 20% more than the Wizards.  Did you go farm Meldrath for lack of other targets?

So who is the worst class right now?
All I have learned from this thread is that it is not Shaman.

I was looking at Tyranont and tower event 4.  I didn't go through and check every class because it's not necessary to list every single one in order to point out what sort of range our dps classes are in.

Because as restated (it was also said very early in EQ) when damage bonuses on 2Hdrs were improved - Knights will continue doing less damage than Warriors and other pure melee. That's one of the costs of you having a spell book.

It's far from an old and useless argument:

1. You're hybrids and are not intended parity with your parent classes in their areas of specialization.

2. In the case of SK's, you receive basic armed warfare and necromantic spells. It's understandble for your class to equal Warrior DPS when you are expending mana at a rate that can't be sustained and prohibits you from spending it on other than damage to do it.

3. In the case of Paladins, your secondary skill set is devoted to the healing arts. Your sword ought to be a bit better than a mace weilded by a Cleric (like SK's you took the basic armed warfare course/Clerics did not). But certainly nowhere near as good as a dagger wielded by a Rogue or a sword weilded by a Warrior.

In an earlier post someone commented about dunping the mana bar into damage.

This too goes to the class character thing. Paladins are a priest, not a Wizard (or Necro). Think about the kind of damage spells appropriate for a Cleric:

A DD, a better DD vs. undead, a reverse DS/Rune (don't hit my boys!!). It's weak and it should be weak. You aren't an offensive class, Paladins are a tanking "healadin". There is no mana fueled damage reasonable given your class character.

I have no issue whatsoever with adjusting Paladin DPS because they have not been where they should be in a longstanding DPS hierarchy. But you have to insure that the result is everybody in the right place in that hierarchy. You don't get there by concidering only Paladins (a healing class) and SK's (an offensive class).

For over two years I've suggested that Holyforge triggers a burst DPS discipline that is Fellstike-like vs. live mobs and increases the rate of slays vs. undead - with Fellstrike-like duration and refresh.

Like properly placing everyone in the traditional DPS hierarchy where they belong and have always been in relation to each other, giving Paladins a burst melee DPS ability is fair.

If you ask for fair, you should get it. (In the case of melee DPS you've been very unfair thus far. Very.)

Swain commented that Paladins have learned to ask for 10x more than they expect to get - expecting a stuffed pony ask for a Kentucky thoroughbred horse farm. My kid, spouce, or person I manage professionally asks that way, they get nada. Not what's reasonable - they get nothing.

That kind of conduct when the result could easily be tank parity (except for 1 or 2 raid boss mobs), "on par" DPS, and spellbook superiority is guaranteed to raise the hackles of classes that compete with your's.

Better IMO to emulate Warriors when they asked for "shields to be made more practical" and "a more convenient method of stopping runners (with major limitations)" publically and encouraged it to be debated by all concerned. We proposed things that were so reasonable that what we asked for was what we got and only a few soreheads questioned the outcome.

If the outcome is unfair (like WoT or the 135% healing benefit on your Epic) the chances are it'll be nerfed if you get it.

Warriors do not specialize in DPS.  Maybe you are confused about your role.

Brael wrote:

I was looking at Tyranont and tower event 4.  I didn't go through and check every class because it's not necessary to list every single one in order to point out what sort of range our dps classes are in.

Perhaps you can provide us with some parses on which bards "approach 9k".

Oh and it would be great if your bards would stop using a watered down version of the raging fury bard background.

Can we turn this thread into something productive like EQ is on it's last legg or Riders vs Groupers?

Brael wrote:

SA is a 4.7 modifier.  While the additional damage can crit just as if it were base damage, it doesn't add to the base on TotC (or any other proc we have).  TotC has a very low base, as has been pointed out several times in this thread.  You can't gain a bonus due to 100 spell damage because it caps at... 72.

ah thats right, forgot about mod3 bonus maxing out at 2x base heal.  ToTC 18 base is 485?  Dunno much about the proc rate fiasco you mentioned, but doubling a passive innate Lifetap is still a hefty chunk.

Hulkling wrote:

Dunno much about the proc rate fiasco you mentioned, but doubling a passive innate Lifetap is still a hefty chunk.

the fiasco was that for a time, TOTC got a bugged proc chance mod, so instead of the standard 2 ppm all unmodified procs should get, it was getting 4 ppm - basically it was just firing a lot more often than it was supposed to.
as i mentioned earlier in the thread, that bug was in the game for a while (i think at least 6-8 months, it was from late DoDH until TSS, if i recall right - my timeline could be a bit off though) and when they decided to give ToTC more ranks, they first corrected the bug so that it didn't fire at the increased rate.

and yes, it's 485 - i said that about 10 posts ago.

Hulkling wrote:

Brael wrote:

SA is a 4.7 modifier.  While the additional damage can crit just as if it were base damage, it doesn't add to the base on TotC (or any other proc we have).  TotC has a very low base, as has been pointed out several times in this thread.  You can't gain a bonus due to 100 spell damage because it caps at... 72.

ah thats right, forgot about mod3 bonus maxing out at 2x base heal.  ToTC 18 base is 485?  Dunno much about the proc rate fiasco you mentioned, but doubling a passive innate Lifetap is still a hefty chunk.

It doesn't double.  SA doesn't boost the SD given boost.  Having enough SD to max it out is a lot like having a 5.7 mod opposed to a 4.7 mod (not quite, but it's an easy way to think about it, it's actually a little less).  It's a boost for sure, but it's not as big of a boost as you're thinking it is.  Especially when you consider the per second amount you're talking about.  And as I was getting at with YL, a lot of the self healing we put out solo is due to MC and even our epic rather than TotC, though MC isn't much of a factor in groups or raids as we get far fewer killshots then.

Brael wrote:

Hulkling wrote:

ah thats right, forgot about mod3 bonus maxing out at 2x base heal.  ToTC 18 base is 485?  Dunno much about the proc rate fiasco you mentioned, but doubling a passive innate Lifetap is still a hefty chunk.

It doesn't double.  SA doesn't boost the SD given boost.  Having enough SD to max it out is a lot like having a 5.7 mod opposed to a 4.7 mod (not quite, but it's an easy way to think about it).  It's a boost for sure, but it's not a big one

Semantics.  Spell Damage mod3 can still tack on an additional 485 to the Lifetap no matter which way you look at it....which alone is higher than BoL's current base max of 420.

• ToTC max mod3 bonus = 485
• BoL max mod3 bonus = 1

Then factor in Soul Abrasion vs Healing Adept, and you have a similar comparison.  Point being, SK fear-mongering that BoL is going to some day catch up with ToTC (or the Shroud line for that matter) is rather silly.

Hulkling wrote:

BoL max mod3 bonus = 1

Spell Damage and presumably Healing Mod adds atleast 1/7 value to any spell it works on, so ~30 healing for Wantu and Gilthanos who probably have among the highest amounts of Heal Mod currently in game for Paladins.

Still waiting for those 9k dps bard parses.

Hulkling wrote:

Point being, SK fear-mongering that BoL is going to some day catch up with ToTC (or the Shroud line for that matter) is rather silly.

what fear mongering? i'm willing to grant you the point, if i've missed something, but where is this attitude which you're claiming?

the only sks have that talked about BoL (in this thread, at least) have been myself and naubi, and then it was only to say that the reason BoL is so much weaker than ToTC is that BoL is at rank 6 vs. ToTC being at rank 18.

chances are good that with the next expansion, ToTC will go up to at least rank 21... maybe what you should push for is to get eildroth to add 15 ranks to BoL next expansion.

Hulkling wrote:

Brael wrote:

Hulkling wrote:

ah thats right, forgot about mod3 bonus maxing out at 2x base heal.  ToTC 18 base is 485?  Dunno much about the proc rate fiasco you mentioned, but doubling a passive innate Lifetap is still a hefty chunk.

It doesn't double.  SA doesn't boost the SD given boost.  Having enough SD to max it out is a lot like having a 5.7 mod opposed to a 4.7 mod (not quite, but it's an easy way to think about it).  It's a boost for sure, but it's not a big one

Semantics.  Spell Damage mod3 can still tack on an additional 485 to the Lifetap no matter which way you look at it....which alone is higher than BoL's current base max of 420.

• ToTC max mod3 bonus = 485
• BoL max mod3 bonus = 1

Then factor in Soul Abrasion vs Healing Adept, and you have a similar comparison.  Point being, SK fear-mongering that BoL is going to some day catch up with ToTC (or the Shroud line for that matter) is rather silly.

I think the implied 'waa waaa nerf SK' crap from some paladins here is even sillier. And it's crap like that which got some of your needed enhancements last beta to get overturned. Because some paladins can't agree among their own class what they want, and they spent most of their time posting in beta either slamming SK, or slamming warriors. Invading each classes forum to do so.

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

I think the implied 'waa waaa nerf SK' crap from some paladins here is even sillier. And it's crap like that which got some of your needed enhancements last beta to get overturned. Because some paladins can't agree among their own class what they want, and they spent most of their time posting in beta either slamming SK, or slamming warriors. Invading each classes forum to do so.

I know you are but what am I!

Survey_ wrote:

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Yeah, because sitting true DPS classes to put a knight in the DPS group is awesome for morale.

Yes, actually knowing something about your class is an asset.  The DPS class gets a credible basis for what the Bard/Shm/Ber combo adds to their parse assuming they actually try in the tank group and the Tank gets to parse higher than normal once a month during a boring summer of farm.

If you have 8 year olds who throw a hissy fit because "OMG, I don't have a Bard from Queen_Malarian_31 I hate you Ronak" it's a problem with the player and not juggling groups on occasion for a trivial farm event being done for the nth time.

Unclench and DPS on Curator once, imagine it's possible that your guild can finish off the event if you're behind the mob.  You might even have fun.  Or don't, only ever tank and if you feel like posting about SK DPS say "I don't know, I'd never stoop to trying to damage a mob and have little first hand knowledge of that facet of my class on raids."

As I've already stated I've hit 7k before. Also, not sure why you want to go around pretending to be something your class is not, but whatever floats your boat I guess. Perhaps you should mainchange?

I raid because I emjoy destroying content with my companions. Part of this is efficiency, and performance. You don't handicap yourself on purpose just so you can have a chuckle, when your goal is complete destruction of each and every event.

If I didn't want to offtank, I wouldn't play an SK. 'DPS SK' are tools, all of them.

Survey_ wrote:

Brael wrote:

Looking at some parses right now where I typically put out good dps if I get to dps that day, I'm seeing Berserkers at 18k, Rogues at 15k, Wizards at 15k, and Rangers at 12.5k.

You're looking at a parse with no Mages or Necros and the Zerks doing 20% more than the Wizards.  Did you go farm Meldrath for lack of other targets?

Yeah those numbers are boggling. I know you have at least one wizard who isn't a slacker, so 15k there is rather odd.

They were the most recent runs on the fights.  There's any number of possible explanations for it, from our Berserkers are just that good, to a good melee run/bad caster run, to our casters lacked some mana before the fight began.  The point is, real dps classes are doing an average of more than double what SK's do, which puts 7k in perspective for guilds that don't have as much dps as we do.

That's a bad fight to talk about Brael, it has a 50% pierce mod.

Brael wrote:

They were the most recent runs on the fights.  There's any number of possible explanations for it, from our Berserkers are just that good, to a good melee run/bad caster run, to our casters lacked some mana before the fight began.  The point is, real dps classes are doing an average of more than double what SK's do, which puts 7k in perspective for guilds that don't have as much dps as we do.

Oh yeah, I agree. We have similar numbers, our top zerkers/rogues doing 18k, but on those same fights our wizards do uh...more than 18k.

Edit: Not Tyranont either.

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Survey_ wrote:

Brael wrote:

Looking at some parses right now where I typically put out good dps if I get to dps that day, I'm seeing Berserkers at 18k, Rogues at 15k, Wizards at 15k, and Rangers at 12.5k.

You're looking at a parse with no Mages or Necros and the Zerks doing 20% more than the Wizards.  Did you go farm Meldrath for lack of other targets?

Yeah those numbers are boggling. I know you have at least one wizard who isn't a slacker, so 15k there is rather odd.

I'm still waiting for those 9k dps bard parses, captain BS.

SK are so overpowered compared to paladins in SoD, it isn't event funny.

Well, I am still looking at our old parses. I've found an 8K one so far, but not tracked down the 9K one as yet. It was a one time occurence, but it did indeed happen.

I'm by no means saying it's a common thing, but it's achievable by the best of the best bards out there, in the best gear.

A bard has put up 9k before, also Ronak I'd be interested in your guild dps on tyranont since you're dps is all apparently amazing.

Ronak-Xegony wrote:

Well, I am still looking at our old parses. I've found an 8K one so far, but not tracked down the 9K one as yet. It was a one time occurence, but it did indeed happen.

 

Lets see that parse.

Naubi wrote:

This is why SKs are leary of paladins getting upgrades similiar to abilities we have.

SKs have had procs since basically day one of EQ (pre kunark).

We have had a proc damage modifying aa line since aa were first in the game in luclin. 

 

And then... soon as paladins (and warriors too for automatic warrior it seems) the SK proc is overpowered because it's better?

Your classes didn't even have a proc until like 8 years after ours. I thought it was pretty much established and discussesed, and rediscussed in beta with prathun etc that sk procs are a basic feature of the class, yours are a new 'bonus' ability. They are not balanced against each other.

Why do you think SKs cringe at the thought of paladins (and, apparently, automatic warrior warriors) getting an ability similar to ours? Because we know that some of you will immediately decide "we've got it... now for phase two to get the exact same as SKs".

The reason your procs aren't nearly as good as SKs is because they aren't meant to be. What ever made you think they were?

So what magical buff proc spell did SKs have pre-Kunark hmm? Oh wait, they didn't. Guess you weren't around back then.

What tank class DID have a buff proc spell pre-Kunark hmm? Oh yeah, that was paladins.

I fail to see anyone trying to balance paladin innate heal proc versus SK one. I see paladins that have asked for an innate heal proc that is worth something, and other paladins pointed out that sk self healing has started to encroach on the balance between the classes with regard to healing.

You should stop saying "we" when you mean "I", as you're the biggest paranoid moron sk of them all. Naubi and Battleblade, if those two ever bred with one another you'd have armaggedon.

It depends on your definition of "worth something" doesnt it?

Having a proc heal where you had nothing before is worth something. But apparently to you "worth something" means it has to be as good as what any other class has.

Having a long reuse emergency ae aggro is worth something. But to you it means you need an under 1 min recast ae aggro so you can hold aggro on any number of mobs as a SK can.

I've posted in this thread that I think hybrid heals (pal/rng/bst) needed a bigger upgrade in line with the priest classes, and that I don't think it's right that the SK tap base is higher than paladin fast heal.

What I don't like, what I really am not looking forward to encountering in beta (you can call that "paranoia" if you like) is the massive sense of entitlement some paladins seem to have.

Anything you get is either just the beginning (the first stage from where you need to get it to the same as another class), or it's something you should have always had, or it's a 'fix' (even if it's something completely new), or the return of some ability you lost at lvl 50 or whatever.

The earliest spell proc SK's get is Vampiric Embrace (a shared necro spell) at lvl 22. (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=359).  I'm wracking my brain to determine if that was there pre-kunark, but I can't remember to save my life right now.  If anyone knows, that'd be cool =)

SleeperSKS wrote:

A bard has put up 9k before, also Ronak I'd be interested in your guild dps on tyranont since you're dps is all apparently amazing.

We don't burn Tyranont, though I suppose we should.

Arishkogol wrote:

The earliest spell proc SK's get is Vampiric Embrace (a shared necro spell) at lvl 22. (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=359).  I'm wracking my brain to determine if that was there pre-kunark, but I can't remember to save my life right now.  If anyone knows, that'd be cool =)

Yes, that line was in game pre kunark, since it's a level 7/22 spell.  I vaguely remember using it back in the day to tap tank skeletons and the like in Nektulos.

Naubi wrote:

What I don't like, what I really am not looking forward to encountering in beta (you can call that "paranoia" if you like) is the massive sense of entitlement some paladins seem to have.

Anything you get is either just the beginning (the first stage from where you need to get it to the same as another class), or it's something you should have always had, or it's a 'fix' (even if it's something completely new), or the return of some ability you lost at lvl 50 or whatever.

 

 

AND SKs dont suffer from this  lol just look at the beta threads probably 70% of the post on Paladin threads are SKs.

So just calling the kettle black here.

Oh and btw not to be mean but not sure why you think we care (at least I dont) what you or anyone except the devs think we should get or not get.

I'm glad you at least don't think I personally got the paladin ae aggro removed ><

Stupid Tyranont 50% pierce mod retardation BS.

Of course that's the parse mob he picks!

Anyway, continue on...

Nerf Erudites

Naubi wrote:

I'm glad you at least don't think I personally got the paladin ae aggro removed ><

I do not think you were personally responsible for that abortion either Naubi.  I think you contributed to it, and I felt it was very coincidental you just happened to post we were not getting before the devs even leaked that info.  However, thats not the same as thinking you were capable of sinking that ship.  Frankly you were probably not any more of a road block to that ability as some PALADINS have been to other abilities.

Gilthanos wrote:

Naubi wrote:

I'm glad you at least don't think I personally got the paladin ae aggro removed ><

I do not think you were personally responsible for that abortion either Naubi.  I think you contributed to it, and I felt it was very coincidental you just happened to post we were not getting before the devs even leaked that info.  However, thats not the same as thinking you were capable of sinking that ship.  Frankly you were probably not any more of a road block to that ability as some PALADINS have been to other abilities.

i thought the timing of naubi's post interesting too....

oh and bbz your forgetting in the game we play called "get something good for the paladin class from the next expansion" we dont work for you, we dont ask your permission for anything since we arent your children or "shudder" your spouse.

we decide as a class what we want and ask for what we think may be possible.

we dont need your input since we know the warriors want us to get another heal that we can then cast on them while they tank.

we also know the warriors are going to run around crying like little sissies, whining that the paladin class is trying to ruin the game for them no matter we manage to wrest out of the beta. Past history has shown us nothing is more histronic and angsty then a sad warrior worried the paladins are having fun again now that the new expansion is out.

After all its been going on since it was discovered stuns cause aggro and has been unrelenting for the last 9 years since then. we may be a little dense, still if you slap us around for years on end we figure out the real game going on.

So we know to get a decent ability we can play around with for three months or so we have to toss a lot of "stuff" at the wall and hope something good will stick.

we also know the warriors are coming along to ruin whatever fun we have that doesnt involve healing them, (not thats fun, its funner for me to let a warrior die and save the wizard to be honest. i like wizards and when he succors out after the warrior goes down we both live.) so we enjoy it while we have it and try not to mourn too much until the next cycle starts.

epic click, wot, long duration stuns, all beautiful spots of happiness and all destroyed by the warriors envy. id post more but it makes me ill to think about where our class is and where its going if you and your warrior buddies get their way.

Swain, I think you're forgetting a couple of things:

1. No one cares if stuns produce aggro - they are a spell that Paladins have used for that purpose for quite a long time.

People may well comment if stuns actually stun mobs since it's not too difficult to use recast times, figure out what percentage of the time mobs will be helpless and discover they are reducing damage intake better than the Warrior 5% inate DI contribution reducer plus Fortitude plus Defensive all used whenever they pop.

You see, after years of reading "warriors have Defensiv [sic]. It must be shared or nerfed." on PoN and your classes campaign to do that very thing, the damage reduction of stuns that actually stun might get looked at.

Much less stuns that actually stun and act as a Holy Light trigger giving you a random heal which combined with WoT...

2. WoT which Paladins assured everyone produced no advantage. When Frodlin asked that this non-advantage capability be given to Warriors he was denied cold. Which of course caused some Warriors to try it out vs. factions mobs needed for Anguish stuff with a Shaman casting Listless, with and without Reptile etc.

Frodlin to Devs - here's all the non-advantage WoT has. Are you sure downward scaling abilities are prohibited for Warriors? Aw, you are going to nerf it? That's not at all what we want - we don't say "paladins have Ward of Tuna [sic]. It must be shared or nerfed.", we only ask that it be shared.

After watching Knights do Rangers, get Cleric Hammers nerfed before they got out of beta, campaign for years for Defensive, ....

While hiding the advantages of chain stunning, the 135% healing benefit, WoT, etc.

Many of the things you ask for get looked at closely either before they make it to live or after. By Frodlin, while he was still active and Warriors had participation in the CC program, during development/before release....

...or when before is not possible, after release.

-----------

All sadly because history has shown y'all don't play nice with others.

-----------

Which is also why the last few things (some) Warriors have wanted got discussed publicly where everyone could provide input before the fact and the reasonableness of our request established before submission...

...we didn't want a lobby of insiders to snuff them out before they saw the light of day or for that matter after they saw the light of day....

Paladin To Do List

Competitive aggro - X

Tank Parity - X

"On Par" DPS - pending

Spellbook Superiority - You Betcha. /wink

Battleblade-Xegony wrote:

Paladin To Do List

Competitive aggro - X

Tank Parity - X

"On Par" DPS - pending

1. which was ours (knights) to begin with.

2. only in groups, we will never match war named tanking.

3. cry me a river - it's all middling anyways, all 3 of our classes, it's just a matter of feeling useful.