Klonn_Darkbane wrote:

Let's hear it for the Uniclass!

Let's blur the line between classes, like WoW does...

Want FD and a rez, too? WHY NOT?

Considering what class you play, I find this incredibly funny, Klonn.

Hulkling wrote:

Klonn_Darkbane wrote:

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but there was a serious paradigm shift last year witht he introduction of mercs. I'd think you'd be really happy about it, since it frees up spell gems for other things (for example, there are some situations now, where I can use a merc, where I no longer need to load pet heal spells - so I can do more DPS, yet the pet still gets healed).

That doesn't help them one bit on raids, where thier patch healing is most needed.

Raids need healing.  Let's see how we can solve this insurmountable problem:

1) Give hybrids more power with better heal spells
2) Bring more healers
3) Organize raid to make better use of existing healers

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Hybrids (except Bards maybe) have little to complain about getting the full benefit of multiplicative upgrades each expansion.  On top of the "normal" benefits every melee gets like more ac, more hp's, better fero/cleave, improved melee AA and skill cap increases, they also get:

1) Better and more effective spells
2) Spell focii increases
3) Spell AA upgrades
4) Mana pool and regen increase
5) A better pet (if applicable)

All this slowly is adding up.  Combine that with the idea that devs think that certain Hybrids should also be able to solo (while taking the inflated hits that mobs dish out these days), and you got a set of classes that are starting to become quite overpowered. 

Best example would be Shadowknights, who currently outtank, outagro and outdps their parent class with the potential to be in the Top 10 DPS on raid burn fights simply because everything stacks and because every aspect of a hybrid's DPS gets upgraded every expansion (including HT, pet, swarm pets, innate procs, dd crits, dot crits, more mana, etc...)

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

If they're gonna do nothing else, they should just switch ranger / beast heals to the pally 0.5 cast 5 sec recast model.  Pallies would still be able to outheal us (their emergency heal doin 10% more base heal), and they have additional heals available to them during the 5 sec cooldown.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 0.5 sec cast pally heals still unlinked?  If that's the case, rangers and beasts are not even close to bein in the same category for plausible "emergency" healers, since they can get 2 burst heals off while we're still casting our first.

Y'know.... It's pretty obvious who's raiding Tower and other current content and who aren't just by reading what they've posted.

Lillpiggy wrote:

If they're gonna do nothing else, they should just switch ranger / beast heals to the pally 0.5 cast 5 sec recast model.  Pallies would still be able to outheal us (their emergency heal doin 10% more base heal), and they have additional heals available to them during the 5 sec cooldown.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 0.5 sec cast pally heals still unlinked?  If that's the case, rangers and beasts are not even close to bein in the same category for plausible "emergency" healers, since they can get 2 burst heals off while we're still casting our first.

I supose you should get the same reply the SK community was busy delelivering to the paladins when paladins was trying to get a AE stun cone who had 1/6th the value of the SKs AE hate

maybe he wouldnt because rangers and beastlords have heals just like pallys do.  They aren't encroaching on someone else class niche.  But thats not even the point here.  How about giving a reasonable answer to the question of why shouldnt beastlord and ranger heals receive a boost to keep up with the hp inflation on gear instead of trying to bring some completely unrelated into the discussion.  Its not like those classes are asking for heals that will alllow them to replace a druid or shaman or pally, they just want their heals to keep pace with hp inflation and mob dps. 

Swilver wrote:

Hulkling wrote:

Klonn_Darkbane wrote:

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but there was a serious paradigm shift last year witht he introduction of mercs. I'd think you'd be really happy about it, since it frees up spell gems for other things (for example, there are some situations now, where I can use a merc, where I no longer need to load pet heal spells - so I can do more DPS, yet the pet still gets healed).

That doesn't help them one bit on raids, where thier patch healing is most needed.

Raids need healing.  Let's see how we can solve this insurmountable problem:

1) Give hybrids more power with better heal spells
2) Bring more healers
3) Organize raid to make better use of existing healers

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group. 

Right. I'm sure many guilds have this problem. Too many healers! The lazy raid leaders keep making these all-healer groups. Why hasn't anyone thought of spreading them out?

Hybrids (except Bards maybe) have little to complain about getting the full benefit of multiplicative upgrades each expansion.  On top of the "normal" benefits every melee gets like more ac, more hp's, better fero/cleave, improved melee AA and skill cap increases, they also get:

1) Better and more effective spells
2) Spell focii increases
3) Spell AA upgrades
4) Mana pool and regen increase
5) A better pet (if applicable)

All this slowly is adding up.  Combine that with the idea that devs think that certain Hybrids should also be able to solo (while taking the inflated hits that mobs dish out these days), and you got a set of classes that are starting to become quite overpowered. 

Best example would be Shadowknights, who currently outtank, outagro and outdps their parent class with the potential to be in the Top 10 DPS on raid burn fights simply because everything stacks and because every aspect of a hybrid's DPS gets upgraded every expansion (including HT, pet, swarm pets, innate procs, dd crits, dot crits, more mana, etc...)

I'm not following your logic here. Why is melee DPS increase "normal" but spell/pet DPS increase is abnormal? Are you saying that only melees should get DPS upgrades? You seem to be under the impression that hybrids are doing zerker/rogue level melee DPS, & then do spell/pet DPS in addition to that. Seriously, do you know anything about playing a hybrid? You need to get twice the focii, twice the AA, twice the upgrades just to maintain the status quo vis a vis pure melees & casters.

On percentage increases. A 10% increase of 2000 takes to 2200, a 10% increase of 4000 takes to 4400. Flat percentage increase do not maintain any sort of balance or give a sufficient upgrade to make a spell workable. Each expansion that passes the gap widens, resulting in a spell that is so out of date it is no functioning correctly.

Regarding DPS and healing, when casting a 3 second heal, dps is zero, so it is a choice to heal or DPS, it is not having it both ways.

MrMr wrote:

Lillpiggy wrote:

If they're gonna do nothing else, they should just switch ranger / beast heals to the pally 0.5 cast 5 sec recast model.  Pallies would still be able to outheal us (their emergency heal doin 10% more base heal), and they have additional heals available to them during the 5 sec cooldown.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 0.5 sec cast pally heals still unlinked?  If that's the case, rangers and beasts are not even close to bein in the same category for plausible "emergency" healers, since they can get 2 burst heals off while we're still casting our first.

I supose you should get the same reply the SK community was busy delelivering to the paladins when paladins was trying to get a AE stun cone who had 1/6th the value of the SKs AE hate

That's a little disengenuous.

What SKs had a problem with was that the paladin ability was in some ways better than ours... and then, as per usual, a few vocal paladins went on a rant about how that was how it should be (for "balance") and that this was just the beginning...

And the devs balked at implementing anything for you after that.

Lillpiggy wrote:

If they're gonna do nothing else, they should just switch ranger / beast heals to the pally 0.5 cast 5 sec recast model. Pallies would still be able to outheal us (their emergency heal doin 10% more base heal), and they have additional heals available to them during the 5 sec cooldown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 2 0.5 sec cast pally heals still unlinked? If that's the case, rangers and beasts are not even close to bein in the same category for plausible "emergency" healers, since they can get 2 burst heals off while we're still casting our first.

Those would be .3 second casts, and to my knowledge they are still unlinked.  They also have a 6 second all spell lock out, with a 12 second recast time.  Essentially, chaining = no other spells, at all.  Our 1 second cast smaller fast heal is on the 5 second recast, but is something like 1900 hp base.

Ivor_themad wrote

Regarding DPS and healing, when casting a 3 second heal, dps is zero, so it is a choice to heal or DPS, it is not having it both ways.

I really don't get the logic behind that statement.  Does that apply for paladins too?  They can either work on generating aggro or heal?  Does it apply to mend, so that a monk shouldn't be able to dps for x seconds after healing up?  Or the warrior healing disc?  Our role is to dps, we're not trying to be healers.  If our heals are meant to be emergency heals, it should behave as such.  If they're meant to be patch heals, they need to heal a lot more.

Swilver wrote:

Hybrids (except Bards maybe) have little to complain about getting the full benefit of multiplicative upgrades each expansion.  On top of the "normal" benefits every melee gets like more ac, more hp's, better fero/cleave, improved melee AA and skill cap increases, they also get:

1) Better and more effective spells
2) Spell focii increases
3) Spell AA upgrades
4) Mana pool and regen increase
5) A better pet (if applicable)

All this slowly is adding up.  Combine that with the idea that devs think that certain Hybrids should also be able to solo (while taking the inflated hits that mobs dish out these days), and you got a set of classes that are starting to become quite overpowered. 

Best example would be Shadowknights, who currently outtank, outagro and outdps their parent class with the potential to be in the Top 10 DPS on raid burn fights simply because everything stacks and because every aspect of a hybrid's DPS gets upgraded every expansion (including HT, pet, swarm pets, innate procs, dd crits, dot crits, more mana, etc...)

If that were true then Hybrids would be hands down the best classes in the game.  Its not slowly adding up.  Its keeping balance, because melee also get #1 in the form of discs, #3 with the Intuition line, and #4 with endurance pool (albiet lacking end regen).   Fact is, Rng/Bst are not topping parses on a regular basis, and thats probably not going to change any time soon because of thier "utilities".  Thats perfectly fine, but out of all these "utilities" there are very few that translate to usefulness on raids:  Rng have patch heals and snare (already severely limited), and Bsts have patch heals and Paragon.  Thier patch heals have stagnated way too much to be useful on raids...they are too slow (cutting a chunk of DPS) and heal for too little to have any real impact.

Ivor_themad wrote:

On percentage increases. A 10% increase of 2000 takes to 2200, a 10% increase of 4000 takes to 4400. Flat percentage increase do not maintain any sort of balance or give a sufficient upgrade to make a spell workable. Each expansion that passes the gap widens, resulting in a spell that is so out of date it is no functioning correctly.

Regarding DPS and healing, when casting a 3 second heal, dps is zero, so it is a choice to heal or DPS, it is not having it both ways.

DPS isn't zero if you have dots running while casting that heal!

The heals are not gimp, I doubt there is one Ranger who does not keep a heal memmed.
I would be supportive of a shorter cast time though. 
I prefer they keep DPS'ing on raids spot heal when needed.

Richard wrote:

The heals are not gimp, I doubt there is one Ranger who does not keep a heal memmed.
I would be supportive of a shorter cast time though. 
I prefer they keep DPS'ing on raids spot heal when needed.

I only have a heal memmed in certain situations now. Before SoD I had one memmed all the time. As its been said I get "bang for my buck" using a HoT potion then I would stopping my primary function and casting my slow heal that doesn't make anyones HP bar move.

Sharp

Here is my experience.  When Promised Renewal was introduced, I found I could solo a lot of mobs I could never solo before.  That is because I could tank until I needed to heal, toss PR on my pet, step out of combat, heal myself with my direct heal, and step back into the fight full health with a full health pet. 

That flat doesn't work anymore.  It would now take me about thirty seconds to heal myself to full.  By then, my pet would be a flat cat, and so would I.

Thankfully, there are healer mercs.

There are two ways to look at this.  It's awesome that my hitpoints have expanded to such a degree.  I'd guess I have twice the HP I had back then.  The other way to look at it is that my healing abilities are relatively weak to what they were back then.  In those days, I healed a lot.  Now days, not only do I not heal much, I don't have to.

As to healing other party members, or healing in a raid?  You have to be kidding.  It's not happening.  Healing is wasted effort.  Maybe, if the stars lined up right, and I landed a heal at just the right time, I could save someone.  Yeah, and people purple club once or twice a week too.  It's wasted effort that takes away from doing more important things that will save the group more times than my bandaid of a heal every will.

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

-- Not to mention the buffies !

As a beastlord, I do think are healing needs to be upgraded more than it has been. With a healing focus and some healing AAs, I can sometimes hit a 6k crit heal. It needs to be more like an 8k or 9k crit heal.

If Hit Points inflated again and our heals aren't modified there would be little reason to mem the heal then. They would make a small dent and the mobs would be hitting for 1.5x the amount we can heal for.....and thats crit heal not normal. They are already hitting for what are normal heal can heal if not more.

This is something that needs to be looked at and changed or several group beastlords could give up. Not to mention rangers but they should be able to kite (unless they add more summoning mobs).

fystsofury wrote:

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

Oh hey a monk, go Whorl something.

Hatsee wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

Oh hey a monk, go Whorl something.

 

Was merely pointing out an error in a statement that was made. As I will correct you in letting you know we dont use whorl anymore, we use Calanin's Synergy.

fystsofury wrote:

Hatsee wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

Oh hey a monk, go Whorl something.

 

Was merely pointing out an error in a statement that was made. As I will correct you in letting you know we dont use whorl anymore, we use Calanin's Synergy.

Yes, but saying go Calanin something didn't sound right, Whorl works better.

Peaky wrote:

Ivor_themad wrote:

On percentage increases. A 10% increase of 2000 takes to 2200, a 10% increase of 4000 takes to 4400. Flat percentage increase do not maintain any sort of balance or give a sufficient upgrade to make a spell workable. Each expansion that passes the gap widens, resulting in a spell that is so out of date it is no functioning correctly.

Regarding DPS and healing, when casting a 3 second heal, dps is zero, so it is a choice to heal or DPS, it is not having it both ways.

DPS isn't zero if you have dots running while casting that heal!

yeah cause that whopping 900dmg every 6 seconds from my 2 DoTs is a Ton of dps

Hybrid heals have saved me many times in odd situations and I would be very supportive in their heals being more in line with today's hit point totals.

Thulack-Secrecy wrote:

Peaky wrote:

Ivor_themad wrote:

On percentage increases. A 10% increase of 2000 takes to 2200, a 10% increase of 4000 takes to 4400. Flat percentage increase do not maintain any sort of balance or give a sufficient upgrade to make a spell workable. Each expansion that passes the gap widens, resulting in a spell that is so out of date it is no functioning correctly.

Regarding DPS and healing, when casting a 3 second heal, dps is zero, so it is a choice to heal or DPS, it is not having it both ways.

DPS isn't zero if you have dots running while casting that heal!

yeah cause that whopping 900dmg every 6 seconds from my 2 DoTs is a Ton of dps

At least they are instant now, they wouldn't even be worth using if they didn't have that going for them.

Hatsee wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

Hatsee wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

Oh hey a monk, go Whorl something.

 

Was merely pointing out an error in a statement that was made. As I will correct you in letting you know we dont use whorl anymore, we use Calanin's Synergy.

Yes, but saying go Calanin something didn't sound right, Whorl works better.

Touche!

fystsofury wrote:

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Fists of Wu adds as much dps as pred and hunter.  100% pure fluff on both acounts, just the way it should be.

Linendir wrote:

Y'know.... It's pretty obvious who's raiding Tower and other current content and who aren't just by reading what they've posted.

Not really.  It's mostly just obvious who's guild's have sufficient priests that their rangers / beasts don't have to heal much for whatever content they are raiding.

BroncoAndy wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Fists of Wu adds as much dps as pred and hunter.  100% pure fluff on both acounts, just the way it should be.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

How do posts like these always turn into topics comparing one classes abilities to another?

Ranilen wrote:

How do posts like these always turn into topics comparing one classes abilities to another?

Cause that is the nature of the internet, forums and humans!

fystsofury wrote:

BroncoAndy wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Fists of Wu adds as much dps as pred and hunter.  100% pure fluff on both acounts, just the way it should be.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

pred + hunter = 328hp 308 atk and 4% double atk bonus

Fists of WU = 6% double atk bonus

so not technically the same but wonder what 1% of double attk would be compared to atk if it was at all possible to compare.

fystsofury wrote:

BroncoAndy wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Fists of Wu adds as much dps as pred and hunter.  100% pure fluff on both acounts, just the way it should be.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

Attack doesn't add as much as it used to, I've never parsed it but have been told time and time again how worthless it is.  The double attack mod on pred is also worthless now.  Basically our buffs just aren't what they used to be, I think that was his point.

Thulack-Secrecy wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

BroncoAndy wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Fists of Wu adds as much dps as pred and hunter.  100% pure fluff on both acounts, just the way it should be.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

pred + hunter = 328hp 308 atk and 4% double atk bonus

Fists of WU = 6% double atk bonus

so not technically the same but wonder what 1% of double attk would be compared to atk if it was at all possible to compare.

Um.

fystsofury wrote:

Teaadil wrote:

Swilver wrote:

Patch healing is the weakest argument ever.  If your shaman can't keep up with all the DPS taking AE Rampage damage, you need look no further than your Raid Leader who forgot to add additional healing to that group.  Unfortunately, EQ would implode if you add anything besides Bards, Rogues, Monks, Zerkers, Rangers or Beastlords in a Shaman group.

Excuse me? Try again, thanks.  I still make parses when inside a Shaman group, we don't have utility to use on raids other than DPS.  I try healing my shaman in the group thats dying to a DoT, with max AA's into healing, nope.  10%

Except for those weak Auspice and Guardian spells you  have that add 0 dps right? 

 

-- Not to mention the buffies !

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

Auspice is an excellent tool if used properly, but like all tools it does require a specific set of circumstances to be effective.

As for the buffies. . . Well, that might mean something if ranger buffs stacked with ranger buffs, but since ranger buffs are like any other buffing class's buffs and don't, it only takes one ranger to cast them.

Rangers have three buffs that people are interested in. Hunter, Predator and CoF. Hunter and Predator are considered attack buffs and CoF is viewed as an AC buff.

CoF will contribute to a tanks survivability. It will also cause damage to the mob, but considering how many hitpoints mobs have these days, the increased damage is insignificant.

Hunter increases attack. It also a small HP buff. Predator also increases attack and also has a double attack mod.

Attack helps defeat a mob's AC. In the single group game, a high-end single grouper will have close to 2.5k attack without having any buffs. Fights in the single group game usually last less than a minute and will rarely exceed two minutes. Mob AC is very low and is already overwhelmed by unbuffed attack values.

Essentially, in the single group game we have an AC buff (from CoF), a minor HP buff (from Hunter) and a double attack buff (from Predator).

Now I can't really make any definitive statements about the value of the attack buffs in raiding current content as I know nothing about the mobs being fought.  I can say with a certainty, though, that unless raid mob AC has dramatically increased in the last three expansions, the additional attack from the Hunter and Predator buffs wouldn't be missed if it was removed.

I am not saying that the attack portion of ranger buffs are worthless, more is always better. I am just saying that in the single group game (and I suspect but am not certain, in the raid game) the attack from these two lines is over-valued by most people.

Now back on subject. While I wouldn't mind a better heal (either increased heal amount or decreased cast time), I am not certain I would use it any more than I do now. As it stands, I generate about 1.9k points of hate every time I cast my heal in combat. I am not all that certain I want to generate more hate from healing (I certainly wouldn't want to add 900 points hate per tick as was suggested earlier in this thread).

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

I grant you that anyone who can't adapt is kind of brain damaged. But please note, I specified "If they aren't experienced" (i.e., they haven't had time to adapt).

I am well aware that the illusion can be blocked, again please note, I specified "the illusion lands on them". It is likely to land if they are not experienced.

Please note, I stated it was a matter of "how experienced the others in the group are".

gcubed wrote:

I grant you that anyone who can't adapt is kind of brain damaged. But please note, I specified "If they aren't experienced" (i.e., they haven't had time to adapt).

I am well aware that the illusion can be blocked, again please note, I specified "the illusion lands on them". It is likely to land if they are not experienced.

Please note, I stated it was a matter of "how experienced the others in the group are".

yes, you were quite clear on that matter of experience, but you still brought it up as basically an argument against the buff in general in terms of how powerful it is/can be - my main point was anyone who is in a situation wherein these types of DPS discussions are taking place with any amount of seriousness or relevance (mid-high end grouping and raiding), the very notion of somebody getting net negative DPS from an illusion is purely a statement on that individual, and thus out of context for the purposes of the topic.

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

I grant you that anyone who can't adapt is kind of brain damaged. But please note, I specified "If they aren't experienced" (i.e., they haven't had time to adapt).

I am well aware that the illusion can be blocked, again please note, I specified "the illusion lands on them". It is likely to land if they are not experienced.

Please note, I stated it was a matter of "how experienced the others in the group are".

yes, you were quite clear on that matter of experience, but you still brought it up as basically an argument against the buff in general in terms of how powerful it is/can be - my main point was anyone who is in a situation wherein these types of DPS discussions are taking place with any amount of seriousness or relevance (mid-high end grouping and raiding), the very notion of somebody getting net negative DPS from an illusion is purely a statement on that individual, and thus out of context for the purposes of the topic.

Actually, DPS is off topic. The discussion is about increasing beastlord and ranger heals.

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

I guess I am a newb because I'm not really sure how this could be negative dps to anyone?  How would the illusion effect downgrade dps exactly?  Every time guardian has been on me, I have done increased dps.

I mean, I have fought as a wolf many times with drood illusion etc in the past and never had any troubles.

fystsofury wrote:

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

I guess I am a newb because I'm not really sure how this could be negative dps to anyone?  How would the illusion effect downgrade dps exactly?  Every time guardian has been on me, I have done increased dps.

I mean, I have fought as a wolf many times with drood illusion etc in the past and never had any troubles.

/sigh

Never had any problems? Not even the first time? You are unusual then. Most people do when presented with the camera leaping forward and back like that for the first time. Most people generally wind up moving out of range of melee trying to adjust. Some people (a very few) become ill because if the changes in the camera (a version of motion sickness, I guess). Normally, it only takes a few fights to get used to it. How many varies from individual to individual. Some (those that become physically ill, mostly), never do.

gcubed wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

I guess I am a newb because I'm not really sure how this could be negative dps to anyone?  How would the illusion effect downgrade dps exactly?  Every time guardian has been on me, I have done increased dps.

I mean, I have fought as a wolf many times with drood illusion etc in the past and never had any troubles.

/sigh

Never had any problems? Not even the first time? You are unusual then. Most people do when presented with the camera leaping forward and back like that for the first time. Most people generally wind up moving out of range of melee trying to adjust. Some people (a very few) become ill because if the changes in the camera (a version of motion sickness, I guess). Normally, it only takes a few fights to get used to it. How many varies from individual to individual. Some (those that become physically ill, mostly), never do.

 

 

You're playing with the wrong people.

Most of my guild's melee dps (and most that I know outside of guild on my server) simply have Group Guardian of the Forest Form buffblocked so it's not an issue.

These heals are really, mostly an "oh, crap!" tool for saving someone's sorry buttocks from excessive AE's and rampage, particularly in the event of an untimely shaman death when one needs to buy time for their group.

Linendir wrote:

Most of my guild's melee dps (and most that I know outside of guild on my server) simply have Group Guardian of the Forest Form buffblocked so it's not an issue.

These heals are really, mostly an "oh, crap!" tool for saving someone's sorry buttocks from excessive AE's and rampage, particularly in the event of an untimely shaman death when one needs to buy time for their group.

 

Exactly, it's biggest value is the HoT.

I'm a ranger, I use my heals.  They are weak.  Not useless, but very, very weak.

I'm all for a boost to make them functional (same with bsts).  With the changes to the game in mob dps I'd like to see a change in the way our heals are structured.  Cheal worked back in the day because it took a mob over 10 seconds to kill a tank.  Part of the reason it's not used as much now is that mobs drop tanks a lot faster than that.  Regarding rng/bst heals, a 3 second heal for even small amounts back then was functional because the tank wasn't dropping that fast.  Combined with a high mana cost relative to gear/regen, it meant we could keep a tank up for 1 or 2 mobs, but then we were OOM and had to med up.  We could not compare to the short or long term healing power of a cleric, nor should we have.

Fast forward to now- 3 seconds for a heal to land just doesn't cut it.  There is a reason healers use their fast cast heals (in addition to Promised lines and hot's) primarily- the rate that mobs drop people now is much faster then it was years ago.  Conversely, I can cast my heal for a long time before I run OOM- far longer then needed because anyone I'd be trying to heal (including myself) would be dead long before I went OOM anyway.  What good is being able to spam it for 5 minutes straight if you and everyone else wouldn't live that long?

Speaking as a ranger, I'd like to see our healing power boosted but am happy to pay a price for it.  Give me a spell that was a little higher base heal and a little shorter cast time, but make it a mana hog.  Basically, make it work in a pinch when I need it, but something that is going to make me stop to med pretty quick if I'm using it a lot.

Someone else can crunch the numbers for the actual heal amount, cast time, and mana cost, but in concept that's what I'd like to see and I don't think it is an unfair request.  It only increases our heal utility in the sense that it makes it functional, but it does it at a cost that keeps us from infringing on the priest classes for any sustainable healing role in a group or raid.

Oh- give pallies some luvin too.  God knows you haven't helped their dps at all...

gcubed wrote:

fystsofury wrote:

tearsin wrote:

gcubed wrote:

Actually, Group Guardian can be negative DPS, under certain conditions. It is a function of how experienced the others in the group are at fighting as a wolf. If they aren't experienced and the illusion lands on them, they can actually have their DPS cut by a third.

......
wow

firstly: anyone who can't adapt to something like that is so incomprehensibly pants-on-head stupid that they don't deserve to keep breathing, much less have any kind of consideration whatsoever in terms of this discussion.

secondly: the illusion is a separate buff from the stat mods, you can click off/block the illusion and still gain the combat bonuses.

I guess I am a newb because I'm not really sure how this could be negative dps to anyone?  How would the illusion effect downgrade dps exactly?  Every time guardian has been on me, I have done increased dps.

I mean, I have fought as a wolf many times with drood illusion etc in the past and never had any troubles.

/sigh

Never had any problems? Not even the first time? You are unusual then. Most people do when presented with the camera leaping forward and back like that for the first time. Most people generally wind up moving out of range of melee trying to adjust. Some people (a very few) become ill because if the changes in the camera (a version of motion sickness, I guess). Normally, it only takes a few fights to get used to it. How many varies from individual to individual. Some (those that become physically ill, mostly), never do.

 

 

Ahh ok, I get what you are talking about now.  I  guess maybe the first time I ever had a wolf form I may have been a little thrown off. Soon as I noticed all my misses I would have made other placements tho!

So,  it looks like this version of the wolf form is pretty much worthless then, prob a good idea to throw it on blocked buffs~

What race do you play that you shake more in wolf form than your native race?  My dark elf shimmies just as bad as the wolf.  I avoid the natural camera view though and use the first camera.  Newer races and illusions dont shake so bad.  The new goblin is smooth as ice in melee.

fystsofury wrote:

Ahh ok, I get what you are talking about now.  I  guess maybe the first time I ever had a wolf form I may have been a little thrown off. Soon as I noticed all my misses I would have made other placements tho!

So,  it looks like this version of the wolf form is pretty much worthless then, prob a good idea to throw it on blocked buffs~

You missed the point of my post. I never said it was worthless. On the contrary, I do believe it can be very powerful in a group if used properly. It's raid uses are somewhat limited in that it can't be MGB'd (unless your raid leader is putting a ranger in every DPS group, just for that). Even if it was MGBable it probably wouldn't be as Auspice is a much better choice for that.

As for blocking it? Go ahead, most other people do. The effect will still land on you, you just won't be turned into a wolf.

gcubed wrote:

Never had any problems? Not even the first time? You are unusual then. Most people do when presented with the camera leaping forward and back like that for the first time. Most people generally wind up moving out of range of melee trying to adjust. Some people (a very few) become ill because if the changes in the camera (a version of motion sickness, I guess). Normally, it only takes a few fights to get used to it. How many varies from individual to individual. Some (those that become physically ill, mostly), never do.

yar I can't stand wolf illusion because of everything you mention here.

Qutsemnie wrote:

What race do you play that you shake more in wolf form than your native race?  My dark elf shimmies just as bad as the wolf.  I avoid the natural camera view though and use the first camera.  Newer races and illusions dont shake so bad.  The new goblin is smooth as ice in melee.

My Barbarian alt warrior makes me motion sick in 1st person, and I imagine Ogre/Troll would be similar.  But its a different kind of shimmy shake....Barb is more nautious, while wolf is more back and forth screwing up your melee range.

my biggest problem with it is on my bst.

I wurine pact myself and then shrink myself.    when guardian is cast on me, it changes me to the illusion which is not a problem--however when the illusion wears off it takes my shrink with it.