Karthos wrote:
It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlord
It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.
Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlord
and this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:
Karthos wrote:It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlordand this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...
Raid forces are definitely different (and if the necro has their Anguish BP, that's a HUGE DPS boost).
My old raid force was around ~ Wizard=Zerker=Necro=Rogue >Monk=Ranger > Mage=SK > Bard > Beastlord > Warrior
Used to be Necros were appreciated.
Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.
Used to be Necros were appreciated.Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.
is it any more wrong than requiring a cleric to have their 2.0? or, before the AA was introduced, a cleric to have their 1.0?
though frankly i will say that giving necros a BP clicky rat in SoD, when it could have been an equivalent of the COA BP click, especially considering the *massive* power of the wizard click, is kinda... stupid.
tearsin wrote:
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Used to be Necros were appreciated.Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.is it any more wrong than requiring a cleric to have their 2.0? or, before the AA was introduced, a cleric to have their 1.0?though frankly i will say that giving necros a BP clicky rat in SoD, when it could have been an equivalent of the COA BP click, especially considering the *massive* power of the wizard click, is kinda... stupid.
Comparing cleric epics (what are now essentially just time sinks, but everybody will help you and basically a guaranteed cleric-only drop) to an extremely rare drop, desired by all classes, (albeit marginally in many cases) off a named that is generally inaccessible to many, from.. what? 7 expansion ago? Not right.
I raided in COA when it was current. Saw the robe three times, never won it.
Next question I ask is... A non-raider (or low raider) cleric can get his epic 1.5, join a raiding guild, get help for his 2.0, assuming he couldn't before.
How does an up and coming necro ever get his Anguish BP?
tearsin wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Used to be Necros were appreciated.Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.is it any more wrong than requiring a cleric to have their 2.0? or, before the AA was introduced, a cleric to have their 1.0?though frankly i will say that giving necros a BP clicky rat in SoD, when it could have been an equivalent of the COA BP click, especially considering the *massive* power of the wizard click, is kinda... stupid.Comparing cleric epics (what are now essentially just time sinks, but everybody will help you and basically a guaranteed cleric-only drop) to an extremely rare drop, desired by all classes, (albeit marginally in many cases) off a named that is generally inaccessible to many, from.. what? 7 expansion ago? Not right.I raided in COA when it was current. Saw the robe three times, never won it. Next question I ask is... A non-raider (or low raider) cleric can get his epic 1.5, join a raiding guild, get help for his 2.0, assuming he couldn't before.How does an up and coming necro ever get his Anguish BP?
OMM can be done with less than a group in Tower gear. If a necro is worth his salt and puts out good dps minus anguish BP, my guild would get it for him pretty fast. If he's lucky, he'd also get epic 2.5 aug from Demi as well.
Thymiak wrote:
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:tearsin wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Used to be Necros were appreciated.Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.is it any more wrong than requiring a cleric to have their 2.0? or, before the AA was introduced, a cleric to have their 1.0?though frankly i will say that giving necros a BP clicky rat in SoD, when it could have been an equivalent of the COA BP click, especially considering the *massive* power of the wizard click, is kinda... stupid.Comparing cleric epics (what are now essentially just time sinks, but everybody will help you and basically a guaranteed cleric-only drop) to an extremely rare drop, desired by all classes, (albeit marginally in many cases) off a named that is generally inaccessible to many, from.. what? 7 expansion ago? Not right.I raided in COA when it was current. Saw the robe three times, never won it. Next question I ask is... A non-raider (or low raider) cleric can get his epic 1.5, join a raiding guild, get help for his 2.0, assuming he couldn't before.How does an up and coming necro ever get his Anguish BP?OMM can be done with less than a group in Tower gear. If a necro is worth his salt and puts out good dps minus anguish BP, my guild would get it for him pretty fast. If he's lucky, he'd also get epic 2.5 aug from Demi as well.
Boy, that's circular logic. In Tower gear implies that he';s a high end raider, yet...
And the high end raiding guild I was in? I could PAY people to go to Anguish.
OMM can be trioed in Tower gear, could easily be grouped in group gear now.
Thymiak wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:tearsin wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Used to be Necros were appreciated.Requiring the Anguish BP to compete for raid spots is just...wrong.is it any more wrong than requiring a cleric to have their 2.0? or, before the AA was introduced, a cleric to have their 1.0?though frankly i will say that giving necros a BP clicky rat in SoD, when it could have been an equivalent of the COA BP click, especially considering the *massive* power of the wizard click, is kinda... stupid.Comparing cleric epics (what are now essentially just time sinks, but everybody will help you and basically a guaranteed cleric-only drop) to an extremely rare drop, desired by all classes, (albeit marginally in many cases) off a named that is generally inaccessible to many, from.. what? 7 expansion ago? Not right.I raided in COA when it was current. Saw the robe three times, never won it. Next question I ask is... A non-raider (or low raider) cleric can get his epic 1.5, join a raiding guild, get help for his 2.0, assuming he couldn't before.How does an up and coming necro ever get his Anguish BP?OMM can be done with less than a group in Tower gear. If a necro is worth his salt and puts out good dps minus anguish BP, my guild would get it for him pretty fast. If he's lucky, he'd also get epic 2.5 aug from Demi as well.Boy, that's circular logic. In Tower gear implies that he';s a high end raider, yet...And the high end raiding guild I was in? I could PAY people to go to Anguish.
Then you should consider looking for a raiding guild that does value necros. There is no issue with the necro class, it's with necros that don't have the skill and guilds that can't grasp how good necros really can be.
PS. 1 grouping OMM in group gear might be a stretch, but 2 groups would be no problem.
After sitting and reading this entire post and the tangents associated with it I have decided to play WoW.
Just kidding
VERY lively and I have gotten a lot out of the comments here.
I personally do NOT think Paladins are at the bottom of the list in any setting. I also agree that any player that plays their class and role with skill far outshines the player who plays their class and role poorly. Then and differences in player AAs and gear!
This is what makes balancing classes so difficult for the Devs and also makes discussion on these boards so.... lively.
Its like trying to balance fairness in a football game with Pro's and Pee Wees on the same field.
Thank you for all your responses and comments
I'm going to start both a hydra shammy and wizzy - lvl them up at the same time on the same account. Hydra the wizzy for dps burns and change to the shammy when buffs and slows suit the target more. Both will get merc tanks.
Yes, like all classes Paladins could use some help, but they are still great to play and Paladins who know their class and the tools at hand need only tweaking, not a class overhaul as some suggest.
nephayres wrote:
Soon you will have more posts than me, Naubi
Brogett wrote:
RaidTricky one. People suggested beastlords and that's probably reasonable. Then again I have to think - hybrid "jack of all trades" class... did you expect it to excel in any one specific area, more than others? The fact is the min/max-ers out there won't like beastlords as there's always a class that is better than them at whatever role you're trying to fit. So maybe they need a bit of tweaking, but it's not massively broken IMO.I don't think it's a coincidence though that the recent data-mining of eqplayers showed necros and rogues as losing ground fast in the number of active players, with beastlords relatively low on a percentage played too. The facts sort of speak for themselves there.
Tricky one. People suggested beastlords and that's probably reasonable. Then again I have to think - hybrid "jack of all trades" class... did you expect it to excel in any one specific area, more than others? The fact is the min/max-ers out there won't like beastlords as there's always a class that is better than them at whatever role you're trying to fit. So maybe they need a bit of tweaking, but it's not massively broken IMO.
I don't think it's a coincidence though that the recent data-mining of eqplayers showed necros and rogues as losing ground fast in the number of active players, with beastlords relatively low on a percentage played too. The facts sort of speak for themselves there.
While we may have been "jack of all trades" once, back when we had up to date discs, could tank reasonably, our debuffs were effective, our buffs (well at least paragon) were godly, our pets did good damage and could take hits well, and when our heals and cures were reasonable, and our nukes were unlinked.
Since then, we're still using PoP era discs, our slows have been almost negated with partial slows. Our tanking ability has declined severly with the introductions of strike through mobs, which effected all melee classes, but mostly beastlords. Our AC softcap is by far the lowest, hence all those strikethroughs (and everything else) will be hitting a lot harder. Our pets have stagnated in damage and defensive abilities for the better part of 3-4 years now. Due to mudflation, paragon lines are nowhere near the status they used to be, and same goes for our mana regen buff line. Our current heals don't even heal half of the damage of a raid target's hit (hit, not round), and one hit of a trash mob for xp group. We have received no curing ability since the PoP era.
Basically we've gone from "jack of all trades" to "jack of no trades".
One could argue causality, but from what I've seen, it was the lack of dev attention to the beastlord community that caused the decline in our numbers. From there, it became a chain reaction, less beastlords remained to voice their concerns, which were still ignored.
Calixto-Combine wrote:
darkpoet29 wrote:Didn't you you 1 group Lethar & BB with Inphared? He's pretty solid DPS.And I've never seen another beastlord do half his DPS.
darkpoet29 wrote:
Didn't you you 1 group Lethar & BB with Inphared? He's pretty solid DPS.
And I've never seen another beastlord do half his DPS.
While i'm sure that's a bit of an exaggeration, you have to consider he's among the top 3 serverwide beasts, who has spent over 1.5k AAs just on glyphs. And even with that, real dps classes leave him in the dust on burns (and yes, he does parse fairly well for a beast).
fystsofury wrote:
Probably should not have used the term "much worse off" because I really do not feel that way, but I do not see how we are in better shape than bsts. I agree that monks are doing well this expansion, but I just dont see how a bst are so worse off. I mean I dont play a bst but I can see parses and they parse relativly well. That and they have more utility than any other melle dps class. I see other classes needing a little more help than bst.One could argue a ranger has more or vise versa, but in my eyes the bst trumps the ranger in utility,.
I agree that monks are doing well this expansion, but I just dont see how a bst are so worse off. I mean I dont play a bst but I can see parses and they parse relativly well. That and they have more utility than any other melle dps class. I see other classes needing a little more help than bst.
One could argue a ranger has more or vise versa, but in my eyes the bst trumps the ranger in utility,.
Really? Let me edumucate ya.
Monk abilities and spells have nowhere near the aggro generation as beastlord spells. For the relatively small amount of damage we do, (excluding pet dmg, since their dmg isn't contributing to our aggro) we are aggro magnets.
Even if a monk somehow manages to get aggro, they have a few surefire way of ditching it, beast deaggro abilities cause almost as much damage as their jolt.
Even if for some reason a monk doesn't have immitate death of FD ready, a monk can tank/take damage almost on par with knights. Beasts take damage on par with druids.
Monk offensive discs vs beastlord offensive discs. You're not still using innerflame, right? Thought not.
Beastlords are basically the class that requires the most amount of button mashing to maximize what they do, yet have the least to show for their effort.
Now on top of this, just imagine having to rely on a seriously offensively and defensively challenged pet for a portion of your damage. While they can pump out 500-1k dps (from sustained to burst), they're generally more headache than they're worth. Can check out this thread for more info on pets if you're interested.
So why would you want a subpar dps, high maintenance "utility" class on raid?
two things:
1. yes, the cleric 1.0 is *now* just a timesink, and the 2.0 is easily obtained, but at one point if you didn't have a 1.0, good luck finding a raid guild who would accept you (i was comparing the concept, not the items themselves)
2. my level 72 necro alt has a CoA robe, as does my GF's necro alt, because me and my group cleared COA a bunch of times times getting alt gear and 2.0's - even if you can't handle OMM, AMV drops a BP about 1 in 10 or so times (which is where my necro and her necro got the bp, we've never killed OMM)
so, i don't see how it's unreasonable to make the argument that if it's acceptable to get in a raid guild without a coa drop, THEN go get the coa drop, that whether it's an orb or a vest is irrelevant, except purely as a function of time (possibly, depending your luck with the RNG)
BobV wrote:
After sitting and reading this entire post and the tangents associated with it I have decided to play WoW.Just kiddingVERY lively and I have gotten a lot out of the comments here.I personally do NOT think Paladins are at the bottom of the list in any setting. I also agree that any player that plays their class and role with skill far outshines the player who plays their class and role poorly. Then and differences in player AAs and gear!This is what makes balancing classes so difficult for the Devs and also makes discussion on these boards so.... lively.Its like trying to balance fairness in a football game with Pro's and Pee Wees on the same field.Thank you for all your responses and commentsI'm going to start both a hydra shammy and wizzy - lvl them up at the same time on the same account. Hydra the wizzy for dps burns and change to the shammy when buffs and slows suit the target more. Both will get merc tanks.Yes, like all classes Paladins could use some help, but they are still great to play and Paladins who know their class and the tools at hand need only tweaking, not a class overhaul as some suggest.
Good for you!
FOLKS, looks like we've done our job of completely polluting the entire landscape of class balance
I can tell you this: if I got "forced" to trade my current toon for another toon of a different class of comparable investment the only class that I am sure I would sooner quit than continue to play would be enchanter.
People seriously overrate monk DPS. Monks do really well on the extremely short burn fights. Monk DPS drops like a rock when their two big burn discs are done though. (The other discs are ok, Scaledfist can do nice DPS... if you have other monks doing synergy and get extremely lucky with multiple big crits).
Without discs up Monks and BLs parse pretty close to one another. (Undisced monk DPS is only in the 2000-2500 range with Tower weaponry, 3-4K range with a bard and non-slacker shaman, maybe). Monk sustained DPS is not impressive.
The best thing about monks is that they are hard to kill if they are even 1/2 awake at the keyboard.
Grau-TT wrote:
People seriously overrate monk DPS. Monks do really well on the extremely short burn fights. Monk DPS drops like a rock when their two big burn discs are done though. (The other discs are ok, Scaledfist can do nice DPS... if you have other monks doing synergy and get extremely lucky with multiple big crits).Without discs up Monks and BLs parse pretty close to one another. (Undisced monk DPS is only in the 2000-2500 range with Tower weaponry, 3-4K range with a bard and non-slacker shaman, maybe). Monk sustained DPS is not impressive.The best thing about monks is that they are hard to kill if they are even 1/2 awake at the keyboard.
Monks have gotten even better now with synergy. Haven't been seeing them pop up on the parses like they have since this came about. Stacking monks together has been very beneficial to the raiding monk.
bulletproof69 wrote:
Grau-TT wrote:People seriously overrate monk DPS. Monks do really well on the extremely short burn fights. Monk DPS drops like a rock when their two big burn discs are done though. (The other discs are ok, Scaledfist can do nice DPS... if you have other monks doing synergy and get extremely lucky with multiple big crits).Without discs up Monks and BLs parse pretty close to one another. (Undisced monk DPS is only in the 2000-2500 range with Tower weaponry, 3-4K range with a bard and non-slacker shaman, maybe). Monk sustained DPS is not impressive.The best thing about monks is that they are hard to kill if they are even 1/2 awake at the keyboard. Monks have gotten even better now with synergy. Haven't been seeing them pop up on the parses like they have since this came about. Stacking monks together has been very beneficial to the raiding monk.
Synergy is nice, for what it does. However you have to keep in mind that it doesn't scale with weaponry. The lower tier you are the higher you are going to see monks on your DPS parses. /shrug
Personally I'm not a fan of the WoF/Synergy line of abilities. I don't like that my relative DPS actually gets worse compared to other classes as we gear up.
Most are likely half awake at the keyboard, given that all things being equal I parse pretty close to them sustained but on a burn it's a toss up. Equal gear/foci I mean.
Monks do fine, but most don't seem to try or don't know what to do, I'm not sure which it is but that's the problem with the class not the tools you are given. Had I read this a few months back I'd have agreed with you on monks being bad, now not a chance anyone can get away with saying that and me believing it.
I don't know. To me it seems that Rangers can parse about on par with monks on short fights. However the ranger can also seem to sustain his burns longer than a monk can.
For 60 seconds a monk may spike up to 10-12K damage. After that 60 seconds our DPS falls off considerably. Our DPS after that is completely up to getting lucky on big crits with Scaledfist and Synergy. If we're not lucky our DPS is not impressive, if the other monks are slacking then our DPS is not impressive.
I have myself test copied over. I may see if I can set up some long duration parses to see where I parse compared to our equally geared rangers, if any of them are willing to set up the parses as well.
While 10-12k parses are plausible from a monk or a ranger, and I see em often nuff from zerkers and rogues, you're definately not gonna see that from any bsts, not even if the moons and the stars align. Granted I haven't seen a bard or mana reiterate in ages
Our only salvation lies in the long fights (10 mins or so), when all the real dps classes burnt everything they had, and their dps start to stagnate in the last half of the encounter. This is mostly due that we're restricted to 2 real discs, both of which do the same thing, 100% dmg boost, with no additional mods. One of those discs affects the pets too, the other does not. Since our damage is split between spell damage, pets and our melee dps, our discs will not even be as effective as innerflame used to be for monks. Since we have no way to burn our mana Summer Mist spam style (yes the nerf sucked, but it's still a good way to unload your mana on shorter encounters), we are also severly restricted in the amount of spell damage we can inflict.
As for the parses in the arena, afaik the dummies are 100% magic immune, so you're not likely to get an accurate parse of sustained dmg, but from what I've seen, monks can do fairly well in that category as well.
warders
Paladins, since they just can't compete with SK on a group level, and both SK & war on raids, depending on the task at hand.
Beter alternatives for tanking, way beter alternatives for combined tanking + DPS, their grouphealing has become less important with the DRU / SHM upgrades, which just leaves stuns - although cool in non-top end content, near useless in top end content.
They can use some love.
No, nerfing SU and giving them a 50 dps upgrade overall does not qualify as love.
You guys are playing with the wrong necros . . .
Were at that level too and necros are extremely competitive parsers. (the mmm, tier 1 sod, cryst). You absolutely must have necros parse themselves though and announce their dps when you announce the raid dps. Also I find dragons and giant golems to be unparsable in cryst.
Qulas_Druzzil wrote:
Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Karthos wrote:It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlordand this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...You guys are playing with the wrong necros . . .
And beastlords...
Llosidian wrote:
Qulas_Druzzil wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Karthos wrote:It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlordand this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...You guys are playing with the wrong necros . . .And beastlords...
By no means are beastlords horrible dps, they do better than a burning warrior (that's not saying much though). We're about as far behind the real dps classes as warriors are behind us.
Essentially we're constantly playing catchup. Rogues and zerkers are exhausted fairly quickly, but monks and rangers can sustain fairly well, as can a beast to a certain extent (no way to dump mana / endurance). If the fight lasts long enough, we close the gap created on the initial burn.
/agree
Qulas_Druzzil wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Karthos wrote:It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlordand this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...You guys are playing with the wrong necros . . ./agree
Actually thinking about it now if people don't know how to parse dot's then necros look rather worthless most of the time. It's based off the caster so either the necro sits on someone that parses or has to parse themself, any of you guys that think they are worthless ask them to parse themself and link it or something.
Lillpiggy wrote:
Llosidian wrote:Qulas_Druzzil wrote:Klonn_Darkbane wrote:Karthos wrote:It seems every raid force is different. Generally this is what we see at the MMM level. We are working on clearing crystallos.Wizard>Monk>Ranger>Rogue>Zerker>Bard>Warrior>SK>Beastlordand this is proof of my statement about necros no longer serving any purpose on raids...You guys are playing with the wrong necros . . .And beastlords...By no means are beastlords horrible dps, they do better than a burning warrior (that's not saying much though). We're about as far behind the real dps classes as warriors are behind us.Rogues and zerkers can burn above 12kMonks and rangers around 10k (up to 12k-ish?)Beasts at around 7-8kWarriors at around 5-6kEssentially we're constantly playing catchup. Rogues and zerkers are exhausted fairly quickly, but monks and rangers can sustain fairly well, as can a beast to a certain extent (no way to dump mana / endurance). If the fight lasts long enough, we close the gap created on the initial burn.
Considering that all most of us bring to a fight anymore is dps you're right, not sure why people disagree that bst's are not the worst off at the moment.
Pally's might be a toss up, but I've played with a really good one normally (a few actually that quit) and they never seemed that bad off. Doing mass pulls just seemed to work better with a pally than anyone else, the other guys just seemed to die. They have some issues, ae agro is kind of pain for them but he did it just fine, but overall I didn't see their problem other than dps on live mobs.
brd wrote:
Paladins, since they just can't compete with SK on a group level, and both SK & war on raids, depending on the task at hand.Beter alternatives for tanking, way beter alternatives for combined tanking + DPS, their grouphealing has become less important with the DRU / SHM upgrades, which just leaves stuns - although cool in non-top end content, near useless in top end content.They can use some love.No, nerfing SU and giving them a 50 dps upgrade overall does not qualify as love.
What? Why not? and you're thinking 50 dp s m upgrade. Meanwhile the rest talk about 10k dps burns and how bad off they are. Totally love it.
Paladins, since they just can't compete with SK on a group level, and both SK & war on raids, depending on the task at hand.Warriors, Paladins, and SK's can tank all group content. I fail to see how a tank that can handle all group content AND as a bonus toss out spot heals, Res during combat if Brell forbid the Merc goes down, occasionally root CC, etc. has a competative issue (nor a class that can tank AND pull singles).In raids the supposed role of versatile Knights is yardtrash, adds, splits and mini-bosses - the unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles should be the Warrior role alone. Sadly SOE has subverted that with boss mobs that hit like group trash mobs resulting in many players not even knowing that Knights traditionally defer tanking red boss mobs to Warriors.If Afterlife showed in PoTime that the Warrior/Knight survival gap was far too narrow, SoD confirms this. Paladins (and SK's) have 0 issues in current raids.Beter alternatives for tanking, way beter alternatives for combined tanking + DPS, their grouphealing has become less important with the DRU / SHM upgrades, which just leaves stuns - although cool in non-top end content, near useless in top end content.Battle ressing, curing, group heals (Paladin group heal after a Cleric DArbs is probably the best two player 1-2 healing punch in the game).They can use some love.Yeah right. Suuuuuuure.No, nerfing SU and giving them a 50 dps upgrade overall does not qualify as love.Oh my. At the end of your post you actually say something that's both true and reasonable.The tanking priest class with a sword in one hand and dispensing healing miracles with the other is entitled to it's greatest power vs. undead traditional ability. Its one of the major reasons to play the class (the incredible power of tanking, doing ANY dps whatsoever, and healing being the second reason).IMO SU should be reduced just a tiny bit BUT Holyforge should provide an increased crit rate for 3 minutes vs. live mobs and an increased rate of Slays vs. undead.SOE can "nerf" SU by content design while allowing it to be something that's fun somewhere at every level. Paladins ought not have no burst DPS vs. live mobs whatsoever just because they shine vs. undead. Reworking Holyforge so it provided burst vs. undead and not undead mobs is so obvious, I'm shocked SOE hasn't done it.
Warriors, Paladins, and SK's can tank all group content. I fail to see how a tank that can handle all group content AND as a bonus toss out spot heals, Res during combat if Brell forbid the Merc goes down, occasionally root CC, etc. has a competative issue (nor a class that can tank AND pull singles).
In raids the supposed role of versatile Knights is yardtrash, adds, splits and mini-bosses - the unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles should be the Warrior role alone. Sadly SOE has subverted that with boss mobs that hit like group trash mobs resulting in many players not even knowing that Knights traditionally defer tanking red boss mobs to Warriors.
If Afterlife showed in PoTime that the Warrior/Knight survival gap was far too narrow, SoD confirms this. Paladins (and SK's) have 0 issues in current raids.
Battle ressing, curing, group heals (Paladin group heal after a Cleric DArbs is probably the best two player 1-2 healing punch in the game).
Yeah right. Suuuuuuure.
Oh my. At the end of your post you actually say something that's both true and reasonable.
The tanking priest class with a sword in one hand and dispensing healing miracles with the other is entitled to it's greatest power vs. undead traditional ability. Its one of the major reasons to play the class (the incredible power of tanking, doing ANY dps whatsoever, and healing being the second reason).
IMO SU should be reduced just a tiny bit BUT Holyforge should provide an increased crit rate for 3 minutes vs. live mobs and an increased rate of Slays vs. undead.
SOE can "nerf" SU by content design while allowing it to be something that's fun somewhere at every level. Paladins ought not have no burst DPS vs. live mobs whatsoever just because they shine vs. undead. Reworking Holyforge so it provided burst vs. undead and not undead mobs is so obvious, I'm shocked SOE hasn't done it.
A warrior with a group set up for dps would smash a beastlord with a group set up for dps. Also anyone thinking beastlords are "more competitive" on longer parses is pretty crazy too. On big bynn 1 grp which someone mentioned here I(berserker) did well over 3 million damage more than Inphared who is presumably a top tier dps beastlord. I did a little over 2 million more than the ranger and somewhere over a million more than the rogue. Beastlord DPS is hurting right now, their pets are an absolute sham compared to mage pets.
Sanc wrote:
On big bynn 1 grp which someone mentioned here I(berserker) did well over 3 million damage more than Inphared who is presumably a top tier dps beastlord. I did a little over 2 million more than the ranger and somewhere over a million more than the rogue. Beastlord DPS is hurting right now, their pets are an absolute sham compared to mage pets.
This is the most misleading info I ever heard, 1 grouing a raid mob is not a normal fight and should have nothing to do with balance.A million more or less means nothing without knowing the total damage. We also do not know if the Bst had to do anything else, slow, heal etc
Berserker + 1MillRogue + 1MillRanger + 1MillBst If anything this means the Bst and Rng should do LESS DPS. Why is the diff b/w Rng & Rog the same as the diff b/w Rog and Zerk. Arent Zerkers the class with a aura and no rear arc dependancy?
Richard wrote:
Sanc wrote:On big bynn 1 grp which someone mentioned here I(berserker) did well over 3 million damage more than Inphared who is presumably a top tier dps beastlord. I did a little over 2 million more than the ranger and somewhere over a million more than the rogue. Beastlord DPS is hurting right now, their pets are an absolute sham compared to mage pets.This is the most misleading info I ever heard, 1 grouing a raid mob is not a normal fight and should have nothing to do with balance.A million more or less means nothing without knowing the total damage. We also do not know if the Bst had to do anything else, slow, heal etcBerserker + 1MillRogue + 1MillRanger + 1MillBst If anything this means the Bst and Rng should do LESS DPS. Why is the diff b/w Rng & Rog the same as the diff b/w Rog and Zerk. Arent Zerkers the class with a aura and no rear arc dependancy?
Bringing up any 1 fight is never a strong arguement in a dps claim. Espicially one like this, which has no real merrit on actuall dps.
You are really kind of thick aren't you?
So you think that because one class is lagging behind in terms of dps the devs should lower the dps of everyone else but rogues to compensate. I bet you kick people in wheelchairs for fun, ffs.
Hatsee wrote:
Richard wrote:Sanc wrote:On big bynn 1 grp which someone mentioned here I(berserker) did well over 3 million damage more than Inphared who is presumably a top tier dps beastlord. I did a little over 2 million more than the ranger and somewhere over a million more than the rogue. Beastlord DPS is hurting right now, their pets are an absolute sham compared to mage pets.This is the most misleading info I ever heard, 1 grouing a raid mob is not a normal fight and should have nothing to do with balance.A million more or less means nothing without knowing the total damage. We also do not know if the Bst had to do anything else, slow, heal etcBerserker + 1MillRogue + 1MillRanger + 1MillBst If anything this means the Bst and Rng should do LESS DPS. Why is the diff b/w Rng & Rog the same as the diff b/w Rog and Zerk. Arent Zerkers the class with a aura and no rear arc dependancy?You are really kind of thick aren't you?So you think that because one class is lagging behind in terms of dps the devs should lower the dps of everyone else but rogues to compensate. I bet you kick people in wheelchairs for fun, ffs.
Unfortunately we can never avoid the people that like to go on crusades for their own class. It's quite sad because it mostly steers these kind of logical discussion in the wrong directions. Which was also how the other thread ended up being another class ability arguement.
No, i think that class (Rogue) should be raised.I was saying that his point proved the opposite of what he wanted to show. He showed how close pure melee is to Hybird. Not that I give creedance to his example.
I had a person in a group ask me how long I have played my Paladin and after I told him over 9 years he was flabbergasted. Asked me why I played the worst class in the game for so long.
Ok so i only read the first and last page....and only have one thing to say: that 6 boxer is a moron.
People are leaving the Cleric and Necro classes enormously faster than any other class... order of magnitude.
The phrase "order of magnitude" faster than "any other class" is an exageration. Unless you count twenty-some percent (clerics) an "order of magnitude" faster than 19% (rogues). I find it amusing that clerics are closer to rogues in their change yet people persist in lumping them with necros. Also I believe the initial argument was about the number of players in the class, and the same post indicates that clerics are still the most populus class while necros (and rogues) are near the lower edge of player popularity. These are just facts.
They may be leaving clerics (and are). But even with just the priest changes alone we expect that. I mean the argument for druid heals being efficient as cleric heals was player grouping, the argument against was it represented a change of power between druids and clerics. Healer mercs we expect more of that. You are talking about a notoriously boxed class. Change does not mean "unbalanced", it means weaker. Clerics are weaker. That doesn't mean unbalanced.
In the end, maybe we arn't to far apart. I think clerics might need a touch of love, but you'll never see them return to their old numbers. In 2009 they own the title most populus class and in 2007 they owned the title historically over-populated class. Returning them to that percentage shouldn't be a goal, because you won't achieve it without creating a super class in a post merc world. That drop we see is a one-time shift in player perspective, it will level off, and it will not be reversable. We basically induced a massive change of perspective about the power of a cleric, and saw the resulting adjustment in player population. But it won't go on for ever.
As for raids? I think druids are underutilized by most guilds at the moment. They really haven't gotten used to the idea that granvida is as efficient (minus the cleric bonus) as devout light. Considering that I would guess about 90% of a clerics raid mana ends up being funneled through devout light, that represents something huge to the raid game. It doesn't mean that a druid will replace a cleric at a raid, but it does mean there is a built in idea of how the game will adjust when clerics are paired with druids.
Qutsemnie wrote:
total aside here, but...
this is why i tend to prefer thinking of druids at MT healers, and clerics as add tank healers - druids can pour on the steady healing, clerics have more 'oh shite' options which works better for OTing.
In prison, it might.
Ronak-Xegony wrote:
brd wrote:Paladins, since they just can't compete with SK on a group level, and both SK & war on raids, depending on the task at hand.Beter alternatives for tanking, way beter alternatives for combined tanking + DPS, their grouphealing has become less important with the DRU / SHM upgrades, which just leaves stuns - although cool in non-top end content, near useless in top end content.They can use some love.No, nerfing SU and giving them a 50 dps upgrade overall does not qualify as love.In prison, it might.
Ah, so that's why I have a sore feeling after playing EQ lately...
I would say group wise Paladins need the most help they need some kind of dps increase to compete with SK
Fyndal wrote:
I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...
Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.
Kneesmasher_Torv wrote:
Fyndal wrote: I can get 8-9 aa on a lesson burn pure solo fairly easily...Gotta call a B.S. here. I don't believe it for a second.
as a high end SK using a crystallos 2h and a pet, i can get 10-11 AA's on a burn clearing zeka (or an instanced) if i really push myself, so that sounds pretty reasonable to me.
The worst all-around class right now and for the last couple years is without a doubt the general lack of class displayed by many of the people on this message board.
Imrahil_Donnergroll wrote:
Ronak-Xegony wrote:brd wrote:Paladins, since they just can't compete with SK on a group level, and both SK & war on raids, depending on the task at hand.Beter alternatives for tanking, way beter alternatives for combined tanking + DPS, their grouphealing has become less important with the DRU / SHM upgrades, which just leaves stuns - although cool in non-top end content, near useless in top end content.They can use some love.No, nerfing SU and giving them a 50 dps upgrade overall does not qualify as love.In prison, it might.Ah, so that's why I have a sore feeling after playing EQ lately...
You been grouping too much with pinky :p
Some of us actually utilize our abilities instead of whining about them.
FYI, ruins of illslan shiliskins give 8% aa with lesson solo at 85. I kill 100+ true solo in half an hour easily. I do 140-150 with my bot shaman. If the pulls weren't so long it would be far better, as I spend probably 8 minutes of each lesson out pulling.
