I didn't read anyone asking to be "on par" with warrior dps, just to reduce the gap between paladin and sk. Btw it would be great if people could provide dps number for a warrior dps, sk dps and pal dps. When i'm talking about warrior dps, it's when the warrior uses DPS weapons. I know you don't use it that much because you're wearing aggro weapons (that's your job, to tank), but it's about the same as knight using a 2hander for dps and not his 1hs+shield.
Knytul wrote:
actually, in Citadel raids, u really only NEED 1 paladin (Brells). 2 at most tbh. After that...3rd is just for comfortability, 4th is a waste. Sk's u can use 3 or 4 conveniently w/out a waste. U sure aint sittin a mage cuz of dps, Same with beast....So between mage, beast and pally..who does that leave as the #1 class to sit....and been that way since like...OoW raids.
Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)
Thancra wrote:
So of course with some SK's reportedly doing up to 6K+ DPS in raids, Paladins asked to have their DPS raised to reflect where they should be relative to their brother Knight - SK's (read the first post on Samana's forum)
NOT that the Warrior classes DPS be reviewed and after adjustment if needed given reported 6K+ SK DPS, Paladin DPS be adjusted reflecting the new Warrior baseline.
The goal of course was to equal or exceed Warrior DPS and to no longer be lower than Warriors, the melee DPS baseline class. Henseforth Paladin (the healer/tank) DPS would be in relation to SK (the offense focused knight) and the longstanding lesser Knight DPS (compared to Warirors) as part of the cost of having a spellbook a thing of the past.
Great work if you can get it. Tank Parity - check. "On Par" DPS - check.
-----------
When you are talking about Warrior DPS weapons you're are talking about 1 of 2 cases:
1. Our best tanking weapons with Enraging Blow augs (which is what nearly all Warriors use)
2. Our very best tanking weapon with an Enraging Blow aug used in the offhand to reduce aggro procs and our third best weapon with a DMG aug on it.
When you are talking about a Knight's DPS weapon it's typically his best 2H with a DMG aug on it. This is especially true of many Paladins because this also provides the best Slays vs undead.
My main is a fairly typical endgame Warrior http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1391249
His usual tanking and DPS setup is:
Raxtki the Skitterer Render with an EB aug
and Heor`Otor the Prismatic Calamity with an EB aug
While I have 2 DMG augged 1Hdrs, please note the ratios even with the DMG augs - they are what 3rd best DMG augged Warrior weapons look like for the most part.
My alt is an atypical mid-tierish geared Pally http://eq.magelo.com/profile/147650
While his 2Hander, Fabled Blade of War, is an extraordinarily good weapon for his level and lack of progression, the point is it's the best ratioed 2Hdr he's encountered with the best DMG aug he can get - typical in that respect I claim.
You have your doubts? Go to EQRankings. Click randomly on the first page of Warriors sorted by AC (or HP's, idc) and examine their 1Handers. Then click randomly on the first page of Paladins sorted by AC (or HP's, idc) and examine their 2Handers.
-----
Finally, the first post in that thread on Samana nets site and subsequent comments by Knytul that Paladin DPS is SK/Paladin business are both clear attempts to lure a developer into not concidering:
Warriors are the longstanding melee DPS baseline,
Knights as part of the cost of having spellbooks are intended to do less DPS than Warriors,
and that the Paladin class character is heal/tank and SK's are a much more offensive oriented class than Paladins.
More convinced?
"I'm sorry? All I heard was, "blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."----Mr. Deeds
"I'm sorry? All I heard was, "blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."
----Mr. Deeds
Lol I actually dropped my coffee you owe me one keyboard sir !
Swain33 wrote:
Knytul wrote:"I'm sorry? All I heard was, "blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."----Mr. DeedsLol I actually dropped my coffee you owe me one keyboard sir !
neomongo wrote:
Swain33 wrote:Knytul wrote:"I'm sorry? All I heard was, "blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."----Mr. DeedsLol I actually dropped my coffee you owe me one keyboard sir !
is it wrong that i want to marry her and have many maladjusted offspring?
hmm i think our potential children will all roll paladins and follow bbz asking him to tank for them while they heal him.
Malleria wrote:
be fashionable.
btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:
Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449secDMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161secDMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117secDMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)
Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467secDMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)
Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111secDMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)
Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185secDMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)
Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118secDMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)
Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431secDMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)
those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'
just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.
Tearsin_Rain wrote:
Malleria wrote:Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)be fashionable.
Are you kidding? Vilf totally has that rugged hunk look. Meow!
they do have that rugged evil is cool thing going especially the trolls. if i were a fan girl i would totally make a troll sk those craggy good looks are the most awesome thing ever.
Since patch last patch druids have been pretty much pushed back to a solo class. If a group is looking for a healer, you have the choice between sending a tell to a druid and waiting for he/she to arrive, or you can just click a button and pop a merc..... I always pop the merc when i'm playing my monk if no clerics and my druid isn't loaded up. I'm sure not going to waste my time messing around with a druid. It's just not worth it. I'll take a shammie or a cleric any day before I invite a druid. Shammie will provide more DPS to the group, and endless mana....and of corse clerics are what they are.... the best healers in the game...as it should be.... So the question is why have a druid in the group at all? Woot a second rate healer that does crap dps.
Woodelfous-ToN wrote:
yeah druids are falling behind again i agree. they have always been in a wierd strong in raids as patch healers weak in groups position. personally i love them on my paladin since they play to my weaknesses and i hate running when i can get a ride. if i had to chose though id go with a shaman over a druid for the dps and slows, the proc dps line is sooo addicting.
I'm sympathetic to the plight of druids, but how can you justify that druids now need more to offer groups but clerics don't? Druid healing now can usually get the job done just as well as cleric healing. If bringing adequate healing to a group isn't worth much these days, best healing isn't worth much more. Druids still have better dbs than clerics, plus snare, tracking, ports, evac... Groups routinely use druids for these abilities, far more than they use clerics to tank or to pull.
Ask yourself this - What if you got no more dps, no more utility, but instead got absolute healing parity with clerics? Would you be satisfied with absolute healing parity? If yes, then why are no druids pushing for anything like this? If no, then do you really expect clerics to be satisfied now?
Malleria wrote:Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)be fashionable.btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449secDMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161secDMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117secDMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467secDMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111secDMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185secDMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118secDMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431secDMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.
1: you suck at dps ing
2: high sk parse (6k to 8k) is something a sk with more than 2 neurone can repeat as much as they want.
3: i can show you 700dps paladin parse and try making you believe it s reality too.
4:Afk/slack parse dont count as dps parse.
There you go.
Looks right to me... That's why I was saying on the dps thread that it takes a true student of the game to keep track of burn dps for every class. By and large most of the time your non-uber dps classes arn't in good burn situations you just don't get a lot of looks at them in burn situation. And now we got spires/AA beyond epics making the uber burn group even more burny... making it even harder to get good looks at what a non-uber dps class would do with uber dps support.
To Grrrf - No it's not.
Very high dps SK parses come about because we now have some abilities that stack.
Instant cast dots stacks with our spire, and with 7th and with a bard and with mana flare. On top of that we can use our unholy aura disc (which again stacks with spire and 7th) and harm touch.
Take away that bard or enchanter, or take away the discs. And you immediately cut the parse potential by a third or a half.
Without a chanter + bard a SK can do 4k dps tops while harm touch and discs are running over a short burn. Take away more and you see exactly what Tearsin has parsed.
And this goes way way more for SK healing.
You remember those times, once a week when a SK says in chat 'wuwu I got a 25k lifetap heal'.
Guess what... because of how dependent SK abilties are on stacking (in this case how aa, disc and healing aura stack) ... the reason the SK says it once a week... is because that's exactly how often it happens. Most SK lifetap heals are about 4-5k hp.
I agree the situation for a sk to burn for doing very high parses isn't common and he has to be put in a dps group, not a "regular" offtank group. The problem is the paladin, in the same situation (dps group with people dedicated to buff him) has NO CHANCE of getting close to what the sk can do. That's where the problem is, there is no possibility to switch to a dps role (lesser than sk one, of course), for the paladin.
Edit before people saying paladin want to have on par dps with sk -> just asking for the gap in a burn situation, with a dedicated group etc etc to be closer than what it is now.
@Battleblade: No need to explain me what warrior wears. You have the "opportunity" to maximise your dps, fact for tanking issue you choose not to doesn't mean it should be the standart of what a warrior is able to do.
If paladin dps happens to be reviewed, and upgrade, THEN after seeing the changes I have no problem with warrior getting a boost if needed (in fact and to be honest, I don't care what dps you're doing in the end).
You keep saying it's not normal to have paladin on par with warrior dps, ok. You have to tell me why a paladin boost have to necessarily bring the paladin on par with the warrior dps. And for your rules of 120 (dps), 100 (war), 80 (knights) it's long gone, the SK are easily doing more dps than war already, and yet you have no problem with this ? Where is the logic?
Naubi wrote:
Instant cast dots stacks with our spire, and with 7th and with a bard and with mana flare. On top of that we can use our unholy aura disc (which again stacks with spire and 7th) and harm touch.Take away that bard or enchanter, or take away the discs. And you immediately cut the parse potential by a third or a half.Without a chanter + bard a SK can do 4k dps tops while harm touch and discs are running over a short burn. Take away more and you see exactly what Tearsin has parsed.
Instant cast dots stacks with our spire, and with 7th and with a bard and with mana flare. On top of that we can use our unholy aura disc (which again stacks with spire and 7th) and harm touch.Take away that bard or enchanter, or take away the discs. And you immediately cut the parse potential by a third or a half.
What is the recast on your discs?When I personally look at these parses, I will not factor in 7th, but I will factor in having a bard + chanter. All the pure DPS parses factor that stuff in, there is no reason not to factor it in with a SK. {Unless your point is just comparing tank dps vs tank dps in a typical raid setting} But, think how pathetic this is for DPS classes who need their support classes to do what they do.
I wonder what would happen if you took a Warrior and put in DPS augs, DPS weaponed him up and put him in the DPS group. How far behind a pure DPS class would he be? I wonder the same about all classes including SK's Hybirds etc.
Unlike the "Pure Tank Warrior" who also gets respectable DPS. the pure DPS get zip, zippo, nada. Furthermore, there edge over other classes is smaller all the time.
I am not advocating any nerfs or any blurring of class lines, I would like all the DPS'ers to do more DPS. Stop settling healer parity, caster parity and tank parity issues by farming out dps.
Richard wrote:
Naubi wrote:Instant cast dots stacks with our spire, and with 7th and with a bard and with mana flare. On top of that we can use our unholy aura disc (which again stacks with spire and 7th) and harm touch.Take away that bard or enchanter, or take away the discs. And you immediately cut the parse potential by a third or a half.Without a chanter + bard a SK can do 4k dps tops while harm touch and discs are running over a short burn. Take away more and you see exactly what Tearsin has parsed. What is the recast on your discs?When I personally look at these parses, I will not factor in 7th, but I will factor in having a bard + chanter. All the pure DPS parses factor that stuff in, there is no reason not to factor it in with a SK. {Unless your point is just comparing tank dps vs tank dps in a typical raid setting} But, think how pathetic this is for DPS classes who need their support classes to do what they do.I wonder what would happen if you took a Warrior and put in DPS augs, DPS weaponed him up and put him in the DPS group. How far behind a pure DPS class would he be? I wonder the same about all classes including SK's Hybirds etc.Unlike the "Pure Tank Warrior" who also gets respectable DPS. the pure DPS get zip, zippo, nada. Furthermore, there edge over other classes is smaller all the time.I am not advocating any nerfs or any blurring of class lines, I would like all the DPS'ers to do more DPS. Stop settling healer parity, caster parity and tank parity issues by farming out dps.
The warrior will do more.
And while the SK is doing 6k dps in tower gear with the ideal group over the ideal duration with all discs up a melee dps (like a rogue) in the same situation will do 2x that.
But anyway, my point was that most of the time a SK does 2-3k dps even in tower gear when they are 'burning' i.e. chaining lifetaps and/or dots.
The picture grf is portraying is not anything like the reality and more based, I'm assuming, on Hepp having better gear (he's top geared sk serverwide now) and always getting better groups than him (maybe because grf is annoying?).
Basically, the times when SK do over 5k dps are very (extremely) rare, period. And grf is plain lying when he tries to make out that it isn't.
If ppl think SK can on extremely rare occassions stack too high, then the devs will block some stacking somewhere. But IMO it's so rare they won't bother because it would cause too much grief making sure it doesn't mess up our regular (2-3k) dps.
One thing i have never understood is why a war should have more dps than knights period. If you take a look from the mitigation side it seems melee dps scales from.....
Takes massive hits and doesnt do much damage to....
Cant take hits for beans and causes alot of damage.
Using that as an example, obviously rogues are going to cause alot more damage than a war. BUT though the gap is smaller knights do have less mitigation than wars and as such should be slightly higher imo.
In other words using "our friends" numbers it should be....
War 80%
Knights 100%
And so on....
Yeah yeah spellbook. Wars have one too so that argument is old and useless now. And 90 or 96%..who really cares when you are max level? As for buffs and utility...yeah..lots running around with pally buffs instead of cleric ones....Heals?..though they are nice and do help...unless they( and most classes who arent priests with heals to be honest) get lucky and get a few crit ones (and even then) they arent very useful imo. Take my necro for example..SKs i assume to be sort of the same...after a couple of hits or a large AE or something, there is nothing like spamming a tap over and over hoping for a crit to get your hps back. Heals/taps are nice but have not scaled with the game in any way.
That aside i dont understand why SK and pally dps should be any different really. They have different abilities sure..but over all dps should(?) be the same i would think. Is it the SU thing?..If so i wonder if pallys would give it up to be on par dpswise with SKs since there isnt much in the way of undead usually to use the ability on. Im sure you would see some say yes and some say no.
Hope you enjoyed that one BB..i sure did.
I assume the reason SKs do more dps than paladins is because otherwise the balance would be paladin healing/curing vs SK fd and ae aggro.
If you gave paladins SK dps and ae aggro (like some of them are preparing to campaign for in beta)... it'd be paladin healing/curing vs sk fd. Oh, and they want to have pacify/lull aswell.
And not one person has said paladins shouldn't get a dps upgrade. We just worry (based on past experience) that if you even hint you're going to give paladins an inch and they demand a mile. It's not something I'm looking forward too
That is all I cared about, thanks.
And while the SK is doing 6k dps in tower gear with the ideal group over the ideal duration with all discs up a melee dps (like a rogue) in the same situation will do 2x that.If ppl think SK can on extremely rare occassions stack too high, then the devs will block some stacking somewhere. But IMO it's so rare they won't bother because it would cause too much grief making sure it doesn't mess up our regular (2-3k) dps.
This situation happens more than you seems to think, the dps can also reach 10K in the case of Queen Malarian (of course, with perfect group, real well geared and skilled SK). Btw, what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps. Add to this the fact we have very few ways to make it better, even with support and even if we really really want, and that is where the problem is.
All I mean is you can't really balance a general upgrade to paladin dps (i.e. something you'd have all the time) against that.
SK most of the time (on raid burns, raid buffed) are doing 2/3 to 4k tops dps.
"what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps"
That's true and this is why paladins need an increase (which the devs have said they are going to give you).
It would just be nice if paladins like grf/gilthanos/drayron etc would rub two braincells together and try and consider balance from the other side for once.
Like if paladins are unhappy because they can't dps well on events that don't need healing or offtanking. What about SKs, there are no events where we are needed to heal, because we can't.
How do they think it looks to SKs when they decide they should have the same (an upgrade isn't good enough) dps as us and/or ae aggro etc.
SK are easily doing more dps than war already, and yet you have no problem with this ? Where is the logic?
that's not 100% true - a war that either A. has dmg augs instead of EB or B. has a set of decent DPS weapons with dmg augs will crank out a TON of dps on a short fight - here's another Mindshear Avatar fight, for example (not sure what, if any, discs he used on this - i was doing my standard: 6 dots, 1st spire, HT, LT, epic, circle of power 3, and swarm pets - but not regular pet, or chaining taps):
warrior 'attack on' DPS (even counting tap procs) is superior to sk 'attack on' dps, and probably superior to sk 'moderate spell dps + attack on', but we can burn a little bit higher in the right circumstances.
i 100% agree however that paladins need now, and have needed for a VERY long time, some form of turn dps capability.perhaps a disc to make SU hit everything for the duration of the disc or something... would be spikey and unreliable, but probably average out reasonably well over the course of a night or a week or what have you... i have no idea and won't pretend to, because pal isn't my class and i don't know it well enough to offer that level of insight - but something definitely should be done.
no, it doesn't happen more than that - high sk DPS parses are ridiculously rare, and in your QM example, for the fight to be short enough for an sk to hit that much dps, the DPS classes in that same parse would have been 2x-3x that high.
sks are capable of making impressive numbers for a non-dps class, true - but we can never compete with a dps class given roughly equal circumstances. to suggest otherwise shows a ridiculous lack of understanding of the SK class in general.
Maybe I was wrong on the "easily more" dps, we would need a war parse in a "burn mode" (with support) to have a better idea probably. We aren't anymore in the 120 / 100 / 80 mode Battleblade uses to explain why paladin dps should not get a real boost.
Their guild has the best geared sk serverwide who gets perfect groups... and some not so awesome dps :p
no, it doesn't happen more than that - high sk DPS parses are ridiculously rare, and in your QM example, for the fight to be short enough for an sk to hit that much dps, the DPS classes in that same parse would have been 2x-3x that high.sks are capable of making impressive numbers for a non-dps class, true - but we can never compete with a dps class given roughly equal circumstances. to suggest otherwise shows a ridiculous lack of understanding of the SK class in general.
Sorry but no class reached 2x-3x what been done, unless you know wizard that can reach 30K dps or rogue with 20K dps.
You say they're ridiculously rare ? Just counting Korafax / Citadel, you can burn on Pallorax, Mindshear, Event 4, Event 5.
That's not "rare" and for a paladin being able to increase his dps as much as a sk can do it just can't happen, in any way.
Druids are in a weird spot in DPS now. In a DPS role you'd end up with DPS roughly equal to a melee that has autoattack on, maybe slightly more. Then the question becomes why even bother if it's just the same as autoattack? But at least you have the option of being equal to an average melee. Clerics don't even get that choice at all. On the healing end, all group content is trivially healed by any healer, including the cleric merc, so it's pointless to say who heals better and who does not. Since the cleric merc is the master of 1on1 damage healing, most of the truly tough group situation involves ones where some kind of CC is needed, and druids are easily the best CC class out of all healers with some preparation (shamans are the best CC with no preparation, since VP is always up and almost always gets rid of one mob with no effort).
I don't think druid DPS will be bumped up, but I think they need a way to do average DPS while being nearly AFK like melees do. Either that or their DPS could be higher if you're not AFK.
I don't compare with other dps class, I compare with me and it's a difference of 6-7K dps...
Thancra wrote:This situation happens more than you seems to think, the dps can also reach 10K in the case of Queen Malarian (of course, with perfect group, real well geared and skilled SK). Btw, what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps. Add to this the fact we have very few ways to make it better, even with support and even if we really really want, and that is where the problem is.no, it doesn't happen more than that - high sk DPS parses are ridiculously rare, and in your QM example, for the fight to be short enough for an sk to hit that much dps, the DPS classes in that same parse would have been 2x-3x that high.sks are capable of making impressive numbers for a non-dps class, true - but we can never compete with a dps class given roughly equal circumstances. to suggest otherwise shows a ridiculous lack of understanding of the SK class in general.
SK parsing really high (like 7/8K) is rare enough, however a sk fully geared in tower doing 6Kish is far from being rare, it s actually quite common.
Our sk easily parse for that much on all burn fight, and stagnate around 3K5 sustained.
Those same sk manage to squeeze 15aa/30min lesson burn solo in gyrospires.
To think otherwise just show how little you know of your class.
Grrrrf wrote:
SK parsing really high (like 7/8K) is rare enough, however a sk fully geared in tower doing 6Kish is far from being rare, it s actually quite common.Our sk easily parse for that much on all burn fight, and stagnate around 3K5 sustained.Those same sk manage to squeeze 15aa/30min lesson burn solo in gyrospires.To think otherwise just show how little you know of your class.
your neurotic fixation on trying to insult me personally is severely clouding what very little reasoning ability that you posess - i never said otherwise with regards to top end sk dps, simply that the very large numbers that were being seen were the product of specific circumstances that by and large don't exists in most cases.
even getting a 6k burn requires 2 things: a enc dedicated to keeping the mana flare buff on you, or an enc in your group that's keeping you in flare aura range... and a fight under 180 seconds. and, knowing some of the people who hit those very high sk dps numbers, you also need a fight that isn't AE heavy, and/or someone who helps you to keep your pet alive through AE's.
the fact of the matter is that these really high sk dps numbers everyone keeps throwing around all willy-nilly are an anomaly - the product of a unique set of circumstances that are not at all typical. perhaps it's just me, but taken into account context, the secondary classes required for an SK to get to those numbers aren't something you're going to see in a typical raid setup, because it's contrary to our primary role of off-tanking.IMO any time a parse number is the product solely of a specific and concentrated effort to create as high a number as possible, it just doesn't count for the purposes of serious discussion... that's like going to EC and harm touching an orc and going 'omfg, sks do 21k dps!'
Can that SK cure a DT on a Cleric who's busy healing someone else, battle res, heal someone out of group?
In comparing Paladins with SK's you are comparing a priest with a damage dealer. Anyone who know anyrhing would conceed that a Cleric ought not outdamage a Necro.
But I guess such facts are inconvenient when seeking godmode.
120/100/80 is dead? I don't think so. Just as a fighter with a collection of priest spells ought not produce the same DPS as a fighter with Necro spells, hybrids should not exceed parent classes in their area of specialization.
I've been reviewing damage comparasins made during various eras in EQ and are available on a number of websites including TSW. the general gudeline of 120/100/80 has been in force for many years and for very good reasons. I don't think finding a pliant dev willing to alter that is going to change the minds of Warriors, Rangers, or any other class that competes with Knights in tanking and/or DPS and/or utility - which Paladins have in great abundance.
what are u 2 arguing about? You both are saying that sk's can do way more dps than a paladin, perhaps too much. You both are saying pretty much the SAME thing except with different #'s. Naubi, cmon now...u know what arguing with Grrrf is like...dont get baited into it.
Yeah you can argue with knytul instead, and get some arguing that s even lower and more stupid and senseless than arguin with BB ;p
Sorry but no class reached 2x-3x what been done, unless you know wizard that can reach 30K dps
Yes, max duration around 40 seconds.
So bump up pally dps on live mobs by X2 what it currently is. Then add a short term burn discipline (120secs or so every 30 mins) that does X2 that bump, so in non IDEAL burns you'll see 4-6K and in IDEAL dps burn conditions you'll be seeing 6-8K parses. End of story.
Pally tanking is perfectly fine and as someone said before an Oh S**T AE aggro capability will round it out.
What's all the fuss about?
Battleblade-Xegony wrote:
You should seriously learn to read, where did you read paladin want to outdamage sk ? now seriously, find me the quote, and not your suppositions.
Anyway the class evolved from this hybrid type pal = war/cleric and sk = war/necro or we would still have the exact same spells in a lesser power than our parent classes. Atm both knights have their own spells and those are the ones used actually. Even paladin buffs spells aren't anymore the same as the clerics are using.
And yes, look at the parse and now come to tell me in the 120/100/80 ratio if warrior are at 100 and sk at 80.
As for the cure, except on a very long duration dot the paladin will be able to cure other people. Only our SELF cure were really updated (in cast time / counters cured).
Like perhaps.... the post right above yours?
BlankChatName wrote:
Thancra wrote:You should seriously learn to read, where did you read paladin want to outdamage sk ? now seriously, find me the quote, and not your suppositions.Like perhaps.... the post right above yours?
I missed this one while posting
I assume the reason SKs do more dps than paladins is because otherwise the balance would be paladin healing/curing vs SK fd and ae aggro.If you gave paladins SK dps and ae aggro (like some of them are preparing to campaign for in beta)... it'd be paladin healing/curing vs sk fd. Oh, and they want to have pacify/lull aswell.And not one person has said paladins shouldn't get a dps upgrade. We just worry (based on past experience) that if you even hint you're going to give paladins an inch and they demand a mile. It's not something I'm looking forward too
the reason we ask for the mile is so we still have an inch after they get done with all the readjustments the warriors start demanding.
we have learned how to play the game and still break even at least.
Tearsin_Rain wrote:Malleria wrote:Besides the disparity in DPS, what can an SK do in citadel that a paladin cannot? (be specific here, "ae agro" isn't an answer, I want a specific task during a specific event)be fashionable.btw, SK burn parses in non-optimal dps situations (ie: in a typical offtank group, not grouped with a shm or bard or enc, and not getting any of the special niche buffs that can inflate dps for short burns).this is with my current magelo, using lance of draconic mastery, full raid buffs (gall, unity, crack, SE, brell's, haste, pred - sk self buffs, rk2 for procs, and 12% overhaste) and only the fights i had logs of on-hand which were over 100 seconds and which i actually get to DPS and not spend the whole time offtanking:Mindshear Avatar on 5/8/2009 in 449secDMG: 885002 (100%) @ 1971 dps (1971 sdps)Mindshear Avatar on 5/13/2009 in 161secDMG: 324487 (100%) @ 2015 dps (2015 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 5/20/2009 in 117secDMG: 327012 (100%) @ 2795 dps (2795 sdps)Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 5/22/2009 in 467secDMG: 804098 (100%) @ 1722 dps (1722 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 5/27/2009 in 111secDMG: 211786 (100%) @ 1908 dps (1908 sdps)Mindshear Avatar on 5/29/2009 in 185secDMG: 597311 (100%) @ 3229 dps (3229 sdps)Head Scryer Llkth on 6/3/2009 in 118secDMG: 342970 (100%) @ 2907 dps (2907 sdps)Lord Brekt, Rider of Discord on 6/5/2009 in 431secDMG: 898824 (100%) @ 2085 dps (2081 sdps)those huge sk DPS parses you see are extremely rare circumstances in very exactly situations and only when there are minimal AE's and you have 2-3 people in the raid dedicated solely to buffing you... and/or you get a dream group of you, a shm, an enc, and a bard... which you're never going to see in an actual raid outside of 'zomfg, how big can i make this parse'just look at the 2 avatar parses - one day we had very low raid numbers so it took twice as a long, and i did 2/3rd the dps using the exact same setup... sk dps is pretty decent up to 180 seconds or so and then plummets.1: you suck at dps ing2: high sk parse (6k to 8k) is something a sk with more than 2 neurone can repeat as much as they want.3: i can show you 700dps paladin parse and try making you believe it s reality too.4:Afk/slack parse dont count as dps parse.There you go.
1. Some of us have to be the raids CC on our own a lot of the time, and don't have time to be a 'dps sk'. /eyeroll
2. 7kish parse is doable yes, if your guild lacks DPS classes to the point you get a DPS group, and mana reiterate, and use intensity + glyph. Of course, every class in the game except paladin, druid, cleric can beat those numbers in the same setup.
3. Who cares.
4. See #1.
Naubi wrote:And while the SK is doing 6k dps in tower gear with the ideal group over the ideal duration with all discs up a melee dps (like a rogue) in the same situation will do 2x that.That is all I cared about, thanks.
Heh. 3 x, not 2x.
Naubi wrote:And while the SK is doing 6k dps in tower gear with the ideal group over the ideal duration with all discs up a melee dps (like a rogue) in the same situation will do 2x that.If ppl think SK can on extremely rare occassions stack too high, then the devs will block some stacking somewhere. But IMO it's so rare they won't bother because it would cause too much grief making sure it doesn't mess up our regular (2-3k) dps.This situation happens more than you seems to think, the dps can also reach 10K in the case of Queen Malarian (of course, with perfect group, real well geared and skilled SK). Btw, what I normally do is more around 1K dps as a paladin, if I receive no support, that's still way under the numbers you're providing as a regular and normal dps. Add to this the fact we have very few ways to make it better, even with support and even if we really really want, and that is where the problem is.
Maybe it happens a lot in your guild, but we have too many DPS classes that kick my butt on parses for us to sit one of them and put me in a DPS group. Why would we want to lower our guild DPS?
Tearsin_Rain wrote:no, it doesn't happen more than that - high sk DPS parses are ridiculously rare, and in your QM example, for the fight to be short enough for an sk to hit that much dps, the DPS classes in that same parse would have been 2x-3x that high.sks are capable of making impressive numbers for a non-dps class, true - but we can never compete with a dps class given roughly equal circumstances. to suggest otherwise shows a ridiculous lack of understanding of the SK class in general.Sorry but no class reached 2x-3x what been done, unless you know wizard that can reach 30K dps or rogue with 20K dps.You say they're ridiculously rare ? Just counting Korafax / Citadel, you can burn on Pallorax, Mindshear, Event 4, Event 5.That's not "rare" and for a paladin being able to increase his dps as much as a sk can do it just can't happen, in any way.
I don't argue that paladins need help on DPS, I definitely think they do and support them getting it. However, I don't like a lot of misinformation being spewed. Again, not every guild has the luxury of 5 or 6 SK per raid. In those guilds who only have 1 or 2, they are busy 95% of the time and cannot DPS anyway. Take your examples:
Pallorax: I am tanking.
Mindshear: I am handling adds.
Event 4 and 4: I am tanking.
The only mob in current EQ that I can actually 'burn' on: Queen Malarian.
And she dies in 48 seconds. Woowoo, I can hit almost 7k once...and still be #21 on the parse.
Ronak-Xegony wrote:
Curiousity, fun and morale would be the most compelling reasons. Oh noes it would take 10 seconds longer to farm 2 Runes and alt gear from Queen Malarian with sub-optimal classes grouped with Bards.
The only mob in current EQ that I can actually 'burn' on: Queen Malarian.And she dies in 48 seconds. Woowoo, I can hit almost 7k once...and still be #21 on the parse.
Last mob in Tower 3 event, one Scryer, Tower 7 and Ganak.
I'll repeat what I wrote on the paladin class forums "wish list for 2009 expansion" thread:
There are 4 things paladins need in order to reverse the trend of being worth less and less to a raid (and to a lesser extent group) makeup:
1) A targetable curing role (which we used to have prominent in our arsenal). Upgrades to our multi cure do not help, as any important cures are being shunted as corruption counters anyway. What we need is a targettable version of expiation, with a more moderate cast time (2.0 seconds would be good). The counter number can be equal to what expiation is right now for the different ranks to be servicable.
2) An increase in dps to at least make our dps not laughable. 2a) We need a way of increasing our overall dps (YES this includes undead dps) by approximately 20-25%. 2b) A disc based dps ability to "burn" and do approximately 50% more dps than we currently do. There is zero reason for paladins in the top gear to be happy with 2500 dps against live and 4000 dps against undead in burn situations.
3) Group healing that is more sustainable. What I'm talking here is mana efficiency. Chaining both group heals, not even considering aurora, results in mana depletion that is too fast, particularly for any paladin in a guild without extreme dps in an event with heavy AEs. With the way mob dps is applied in raids via melee named dps, add dps, and ae dps, we should be able to sustain a single group for awhile against the spell based dps. In conjunction with this, our single target heal (non-burst) needs to be WAY better. Our light line is pathetic.
4) We need something to compete with SK innate taps and their rune abilities that make paladin and sk interchangeable when offtanking, or named tanking. 4a) Our innate heal proc aa needs to get at least 4x as powerful, it is pathetic at the moment 4b) We need our next generation preservation of tunare to do something different, a small direct heal and hot does not compete with runes in the tanking environment that exists in everquest right now. Whether its increasing the one shot direct heal portion and changing the hot portion to a rune, I don't know. It needs to gain effectiveness
Without these issues addressed, either in the way described or some other way, we are in serious trouble as a class.
--
I highlighted the dps portion. That's what would be fair IMO. Using 2hers and with your average raid buffs and without things like mana recursion, a paladin is doing like 2500 "burn" dps on live and 4000 on undead (obviously the undead dps can spike hugely but also be lower, thats a reasonable dps value with using holyforge, second spire, nukes). That's without 7th and doing nothing but dpsing from the back.
I doubt those numbers are unbelievable to anyone being honest about the issue.
If I burned everything and hit 5-8k min/max range on an undead burn (if one existed) that would be fair IMO. 3-5k min/max possible live burn range seems right. Those are both with intensity.
I don't think I'm looking for god mode. I should have stated the last sentence more clear, "we are in serious trouble as a class that has any reason to be in a raid or for someone to make a new character for the grouping game based off our merits as a class versus sks."
[edit] Removed double cut paste, added one comment at end.
Survey_ wrote:
Ronak-Xegony wrote:The only mob in current EQ that I can actually 'burn' on: Queen Malarian.And she dies in 48 seconds. Woowoo, I can hit almost 7k once...and still be #21 on the parse.Last mob in Tower 3 event, one Scryer, Tower 7 and Ganak.
also mindshear avatar
you can also do parrollax but that's a really bad mob for anyone to post parses of, which is why i didn't include my logs of that guy in my parses.
if your guild is still doing old content you can also do a burn on rottrued, and if you have 3 other knights you put on tank duty, you can burn on Sacrifice.
but, the fact still remains that in order for an sk to hit high dps parse numbers you need to be putting buff classes in the same group that don't belong in the same group... or, rely on an enc refreshing a 3 minute buff on you, which maybe some people can get but i know i sure can't.
No matter what is the choice made by the RL, what I wanted to point out is that it was possible, not that it's the normal situation. For a paladin, for sure, it isn't possible.
And yes, for those mobs I said, the pal / sk tank or is busy, of course it happens, but let's say knight don't: the sk can do a good dps and contribute in a nice way to the whole dps of the raid, the paladin well, even if he tries hard, his dps won't be noticeable. It's not misinformation, it does happen, and depending of the roster of the guild, the "rare" burn situation vary.
