Beghard wrote:
Silken@Butcherblock wrote:Noaani wrote:Mijrk@Valor wrote:I don't see any reason why they wouldn't just say "We're looking for a way to make rare masters more available".I don't see a reason they wouldn't say they are adding this because they had a lot of complaints about lack of character progression, or they are adding it because they want players to like the new mechanics supervisor.We were given a reason for the fighter revamp, a reason for the spell name changes, , a reason for LU#13, a reason for LU#24 (all three parts), a reason for diminishing returns. Basically, every major change in the game has had its reason provided to us players. Some of them may have better reasons than others, but we as a community still knew.So far, the reason for RAs has been "it would be cool!". This is not a reason.If a returning player comes up and asks me why all their stats are on a diminishing returns curve (a question I get asked often), I can give them an accurate answer that they can accept as correct and move on. If a return player comes up to me in a few months time and asks me why we have RAs, with everything we know about them right now my answer will have to be "I have nfi".Until they start to treat us players with a mediocum of respect in this matter, and provide us with an actual reason, we are left to simply make assumptions (often wild assumptions) as to why they are trying to screw the game up like this (maybe the all secretly work for CCP!). Its not hard to provide a reason, reguardless of what it is.The fact that none has been provided for a situation where we usually would have one says to me that we would not like the reason they are adding it.How about you all put your reasons for wanting the idea scratched in one place. Me, I want them. I want to a way to get master spells that doesn't require me to raid.In my case there is a lot of solo content I could do with the master earthen avatar and other strong spells that I can't do now. That would make the game more enjoyable for me. Right now I'm just hanging in there until new content comes out that I can solo or do in small groups. Yes, I play in small groups and solo. No I don't care that I can do that off line. There's a lot in this game for people who solo and work in small groups or who come on for limited periods. We need more of that content. I don't agree with those of you who suggest that a large plat requirement be made to obtaining the spells through RA. If it comes down to plat, I'd rather have the option to spend my dollars in Station Cash and buy them outright. I trust the game developers to keep on developing the good game they have provided for us all along. So, tell me. Why don't you want the RA? Are your toys less valuable to you if I have one too? Congrats! Prolly 90% of the masters in the game DONT already come from raids! I have allot of masters and I raid. I have them because I raid, but not because I GOT them from raids. Infact, Ive only ever gotten ONE master from a raid. If you really want masters like the raiders do, why dont you do what the raiders do and chek the broker or farm in KC, cause thats what every1 else is doing. The "oh I cant help my self" mentality of some players makes me sick
Silken@Butcherblock wrote:
Noaani wrote:Mijrk@Valor wrote:I don't see any reason why they wouldn't just say "We're looking for a way to make rare masters more available".I don't see a reason they wouldn't say they are adding this because they had a lot of complaints about lack of character progression, or they are adding it because they want players to like the new mechanics supervisor.We were given a reason for the fighter revamp, a reason for the spell name changes, , a reason for LU#13, a reason for LU#24 (all three parts), a reason for diminishing returns. Basically, every major change in the game has had its reason provided to us players. Some of them may have better reasons than others, but we as a community still knew.So far, the reason for RAs has been "it would be cool!". This is not a reason.If a returning player comes up and asks me why all their stats are on a diminishing returns curve (a question I get asked often), I can give them an accurate answer that they can accept as correct and move on. If a return player comes up to me in a few months time and asks me why we have RAs, with everything we know about them right now my answer will have to be "I have nfi".Until they start to treat us players with a mediocum of respect in this matter, and provide us with an actual reason, we are left to simply make assumptions (often wild assumptions) as to why they are trying to screw the game up like this (maybe the all secretly work for CCP!). Its not hard to provide a reason, reguardless of what it is.The fact that none has been provided for a situation where we usually would have one says to me that we would not like the reason they are adding it.How about you all put your reasons for wanting the idea scratched in one place. Me, I want them. I want to a way to get master spells that doesn't require me to raid.In my case there is a lot of solo content I could do with the master earthen avatar and other strong spells that I can't do now. That would make the game more enjoyable for me. Right now I'm just hanging in there until new content comes out that I can solo or do in small groups. Yes, I play in small groups and solo. No I don't care that I can do that off line. There's a lot in this game for people who solo and work in small groups or who come on for limited periods. We need more of that content. I don't agree with those of you who suggest that a large plat requirement be made to obtaining the spells through RA. If it comes down to plat, I'd rather have the option to spend my dollars in Station Cash and buy them outright. I trust the game developers to keep on developing the good game they have provided for us all along. So, tell me. Why don't you want the RA? Are your toys less valuable to you if I have one too?
Noaani wrote:
Mijrk@Valor wrote:I don't see any reason why they wouldn't just say "We're looking for a way to make rare masters more available".I don't see a reason they wouldn't say they are adding this because they had a lot of complaints about lack of character progression, or they are adding it because they want players to like the new mechanics supervisor.We were given a reason for the fighter revamp, a reason for the spell name changes, , a reason for LU#13, a reason for LU#24 (all three parts), a reason for diminishing returns. Basically, every major change in the game has had its reason provided to us players. Some of them may have better reasons than others, but we as a community still knew.So far, the reason for RAs has been "it would be cool!". This is not a reason.If a returning player comes up and asks me why all their stats are on a diminishing returns curve (a question I get asked often), I can give them an accurate answer that they can accept as correct and move on. If a return player comes up to me in a few months time and asks me why we have RAs, with everything we know about them right now my answer will have to be "I have nfi".Until they start to treat us players with a mediocum of respect in this matter, and provide us with an actual reason, we are left to simply make assumptions (often wild assumptions) as to why they are trying to screw the game up like this (maybe the all secretly work for CCP!). Its not hard to provide a reason, reguardless of what it is.The fact that none has been provided for a situation where we usually would have one says to me that we would not like the reason they are adding it.
Mijrk@Valor wrote:
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't just say "We're looking for a way to make rare masters more available".
I don't see a reason they wouldn't say they are adding this because they had a lot of complaints about lack of character progression, or they are adding it because they want players to like the new mechanics supervisor.
We were given a reason for the fighter revamp, a reason for the spell name changes, , a reason for LU#13, a reason for LU#24 (all three parts), a reason for diminishing returns. Basically, every major change in the game has had its reason provided to us players. Some of them may have better reasons than others, but we as a community still knew.
So far, the reason for RAs has been "it would be cool!". This is not a reason.
If a returning player comes up and asks me why all their stats are on a diminishing returns curve (a question I get asked often), I can give them an accurate answer that they can accept as correct and move on. If a return player comes up to me in a few months time and asks me why we have RAs, with everything we know about them right now my answer will have to be "I have nfi".
Until they start to treat us players with a mediocum of respect in this matter, and provide us with an actual reason, we are left to simply make assumptions (often wild assumptions) as to why they are trying to screw the game up like this (maybe the all secretly work for CCP!). Its not hard to provide a reason, reguardless of what it is.
The fact that none has been provided for a situation where we usually would have one says to me that we would not like the reason they are adding it.
How about you all put your reasons for wanting the idea scratched in one place.
Me, I want them. I want to a way to get master spells that doesn't require me to raid.
In my case there is a lot of solo content I could do with the master earthen avatar and other strong spells that I can't do now. That would make the game more enjoyable for me. Right now I'm just hanging in there until new content comes out that I can solo or do in small groups. Yes, I play in small groups and solo. No I don't care that I can do that off line. There's a lot in this game for people who solo and work in small groups or who come on for limited periods. We need more of that content.
I don't agree with those of you who suggest that a large plat requirement be made to obtaining the spells through RA. If it comes down to plat, I'd rather have the option to spend my dollars in Station Cash and buy them outright.
I trust the game developers to keep on developing the good game they have provided for us all along.
So, tell me. Why don't you want the RA? Are your toys less valuable to you if I have one too?
Congrats! Prolly 90% of the masters in the game DONT already come from raids! I have allot of masters and I raid. I have them because I raid, but not because I GOT them from raids. Infact, Ive only ever gotten ONE master from a raid.
If you really want masters like the raiders do, why dont you do what the raiders do and chek the broker or farm in KC, cause thats what every1 else is doing.
The "oh I cant help my self" mentality of some players makes me sick
You know what? I don't really care what makes you sick. Knowledge of your health doesn't add a thing to these forums or anyone's reading appreciation.
BTW. There are no groups farming KC on my server. I've been there, hanging around, farming blue shinies. Therefore, I want a way to get master spells. I can't get them by farming. I can't buy them. The ones I need ARE NOT FOR SALE FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY. EVER. EVER.
Please developers, bring on the RA. And thank you.
Mijrk@Valor wrote:Silken@Butcherblock wrote:Have you tried doing some of the blue shiny collections solo?Maybe some masters will make you able to do this soloAnyone unable to farm KC for blue shinys with adept 3s will be equally unable to do it with masters.That is a task that is almost totally independant of spell quality.
Silken@Butcherblock wrote:Have you tried doing some of the blue shiny collections solo?Maybe some masters will make you able to do this solo
Have you tried doing some of the blue shiny collections solo?
Maybe some masters will make you able to do this solo
Anyone unable to farm KC for blue shinys with adept 3s will be equally unable to do it with masters.
That is a task that is almost totally independant of spell quality.
It just so hapens that the jailor named MOB sometimes blocks the blue shiny in an otherwise perfect spots for camping blue collection pieces. I could beat him with the master pet. I almost beat him with the adept 3. Why is beating a MOB solo independent of spell quality?
Silken@Butcherblock wrote:Have you tried doing some of the blue shiny collections solo? There's a nice spot in Karnor's Castle that if you can get to it you can camp the collectibles. If you are a bruiser with feign death you might be able to complete the collection. Casters need master level spells to fight the mob that sometimes pops right on top of the blue shiny. And you think you should be able to farm them solo because ...?Karnor's Castle is group content and therefore is meant to be done in a group. Maybe some masters will make you able to do this solo, but I'm pretty sure that in a future expansion, group content will be even harder and you won't be able to do it solo without at least 10 masters AND fabled gear.What will you do then? Ask for a Smith Assistant that hands out a piece of the best available raid gear per month, so you can solo group content again?
Have you tried doing some of the blue shiny collections solo? There's a nice spot in Karnor's Castle that if you can get to it you can camp the collectibles. If you are a bruiser with feign death you might be able to complete the collection. Casters need master level spells to fight the mob that sometimes pops right on top of the blue shiny.
And you think you should be able to farm them solo because ...?
Karnor's Castle is group content and therefore is meant to be done in a group. Maybe some masters will make you able to do this solo, but I'm pretty sure that in a future expansion, group content will be even harder and you won't be able to do it solo without at least 10 masters AND fabled gear.
What will you do then? Ask for a Smith Assistant that hands out a piece of the best available raid gear per month, so you can solo group content again?
Tell the conjuror with the master earthen avatar that was doing Karnor's Castle solo last night that he can't do it. Tell my group mate who can solo every named in the castle except for X(somebody) that he can't do it solo either. They both solo the zone..
Again, what is coming down the pike in the future has nothing to do with what I want now. I want to be able to get master spells in the game without cheating by buying plat. As has been said, masters are not raid rewards. They should not be out of reach of the casual player.
What I will want or ask for next is not part of this debate. My two cents for this debate is that we need a way for casual players to get master spells and if RA is the way the devs give us, I am very glad of it.
Why are you so antagonistic about this. How about you simply state your reasons for not wanting the RAs instead of attacking thouse of us who do.
It's been stated over 100 times in this thread already.
The vast majority of players just want a reasonable cost added to the RA service. Plat, Master Exchanged, Crystalized Mana, farmed token, heroic quest, just something.
Why is beating a MOB solo independent of spell quality?
There are plenty of ways of getting that shiny spawn (and the whole collection) without killing the mob. If you chose to get it by killing the mob, then the issue is suddenly you want free masters to be able to solo a T8 heroic named mob that you otherwise could not solo. This is a totally different situation from wanting to farm a heroic level collection quest.
Point is, the KC, Chardok and Sebilis blue collection quests can be done with adept 3s or less.
Don't you see the reason I stated in the post you quotet? It's part of a discussion to try to convince the persons who think otherwise than myself, isn't it? And that means taking their arguments and showing them why myself think they're bad, doesn't it?
I didn't want to attack you personally. I just think that what seems to be good right now will have a (very) bad impact in the future. Denying to think about these consequences is very shortsighted and bad for a game that is intended to last for years.
Sure I want to be able to solo some content that I can't right now. It would indeed be nice to get masters for free. But thinking about the next two expansions I shiver because there will be no way left to improve the character for casuals then (again) because they already got the best spells available. This problem won't be solved, it's just delayed and will reappear in a year or two.
Even for more casual players, having masters (even being completely mastered out) isn't the end of progression. Gear is a bigger part of that than spells are. They've still got a thousand runs through Crucible, Palace, Lab, Outer Guk, etc. to look forward to. A fully mastered player in gimp gear is still, well, gimp.
Kordran wrote:
Mijrk@Valor wrote:Sure I want to be able to solo some content that I can't right now. It would indeed be nice to get masters for free. But thinking about the next two expansions I shiver because there will be no way left to improve the character for casuals then (again) because they already got the best spells available. This problem won't be solved, it's just delayed and will reappear in a year or two.Even for more casual players, having masters (even being completely mastered out) isn't the end of progression. Gear is a bigger part of that than spells are. They've still got a thousand runs through Crucible, Palace, Lab, Outer Guk, etc. to look forward to. A fully mastered player in gimp gear is still, well, gimp.
Shortened-- A gimp is a gimp. The players that " need" masters still suck because adept 3 is adequate for just about everything. If you suck with adept 3's, you probably suck with raid gear and if a master will give you that extra "oomph" it's really just proof of how potent they can be and thus, how much they'll need to be accounted for.
Deson wrote:
Kordran wrote:Mijrk@Valor wrote:Sure I want to be able to solo some content that I can't right now. It would indeed be nice to get masters for free. But thinking about the next two expansions I shiver because there will be no way left to improve the character for casuals then (again) because they already got the best spells available. This problem won't be solved, it's just delayed and will reappear in a year or two.Even for more casual players, having masters (even being completely mastered out) isn't the end of progression. Gear is a bigger part of that than spells are. They've still got a thousand runs through Crucible, Palace, Lab, Outer Guk, etc. to look forward to. A fully mastered player in gimp gear is still, well, gimp. Shortened-- A gimp is a gimp. The players that " need" masters still suck because adept 3 is adequate for just about everything. If you suck with adept 3's, you probably suck with raid gear and if a master will give you that extra "oomph" it's really just proof of how potent they can be and thus, how much they'll need to be accounted for.
OK, we have established that I'm a gimp and so is anyone who wants RA. According to you those that get a masters via RA will still be gimps. No one needs masters, anyway. Don't even know why they are in the game. So why are you so afraid of RA?
Deson wrote:Kordran wrote:Mijrk@Valor wrote:Sure I want to be able to solo some content that I can't right now. It would indeed be nice to get masters for free. But thinking about the next two expansions I shiver because there will be no way left to improve the character for casuals then (again) because they already got the best spells available. This problem won't be solved, it's just delayed and will reappear in a year or two.Even for more casual players, having masters (even being completely mastered out) isn't the end of progression. Gear is a bigger part of that than spells are. They've still got a thousand runs through Crucible, Palace, Lab, Outer Guk, etc. to look forward to. A fully mastered player in gimp gear is still, well, gimp. Shortened-- A gimp is a gimp. The players that " need" masters still suck because adept 3 is adequate for just about everything. If you suck with adept 3's, you probably suck with raid gear and if a master will give you that extra "oomph" it's really just proof of how potent they can be and thus, how much they'll need to be accounted for.OK, we have established that I'm a gimp and so is anyone who wants RA. According to you those that get a masters via RA will still be gimps. No one needs masters, anyway. Don't even know why they are in the game. So why are you so afraid of RA?
I never said you were gimp.It's just a general statement for all those players that think it'll make a massive difference in their game. It will improve them to be sure but if they suck, they suck and the adoption of masters as a standard will just make it that much harder to compensate for and hide behind.
I'm not afriad of the RA itself, I'm wary of the long term implications of progression without effort.
Um, wow I mean, wow. I'm certain with as inflamatory as this thread has become that I'll get flamed anyway so here's my two cents.
We are in effect making all adept III spells sell for huge amounts with this change, so here's hoping you have a crafter in your character line up that can make it or a good friend!
Personally it will be nice to get some master spells for my heals not only on my paladin but a couple of other toons. I'm not much of a raider and real life cuts into my play time making it sometimes hard for me to obtain a master that I would like to have. Research assistants will be a nice way for those of us that can't play all the time get those masters.
Its unwise to give away free masters (offline time is not a significant enough cost) as it will ruin / effect the market.This system purposed is similar to eve… however in eve you must buy the skill then wait the time…. The cost of the skill can be significant.I purpose that to use a research assistant to get a free master you must do the following:Obtain “research material”Must already have Adept III of the skill to be researched. Research materials are craftable items from Scholars, Alchemists and Jewellers, which require 15 rare harvests to create. (This should give them a broker price of 90 – 120p)After you have a research material of the correct type you hand it to the research assistant and wait 2 weeks while he makes your upgrade.This will :1. Will not under value current common masters on the broker.2. Will make masters with low drop rates accessible3. Will increase the value of rare harvests4. Will normalise the cost of Masters either found or researched to 100- 150p
Siodenne@Befallen wrote:
Huh? Anyone the least bit serious about playing to their best ability has adept 3's now at a minimum. If you did not care to aquire adept 3's before, you are now, all of sudden, going to want adept 3's so you can convert them to masters?
I see little impact on the adept 3 market due to the inclusion of the RA.
There's no reason that you can't have your cake and let other players eat from it as well.
Introduce a non-trivial cost to Research Assistants and you immediately remove 90% of the negative feelings and complaints about the feature. It's that simple. You then have a method by which you can acquire your master spells and players who are upset at the concept of effortless progression are placated.
Is there any reasoned argument why the Research Assistant services NEED to be free? I can't think of any. I can think of several reasons why such a cost would have a positive effect on the overall gameplay.
