Well like it says how could we do this?
What would need to change to make this viable?
I have an idea that would work for the Plate fighters. Basicly every Plate fighter would get a new buff that would allow the MT for the raid to pull mitigation or dispurse damage to all the other tanks that have a shield equiped ( this would be a requirment for it to work ) so long as they are with in X meters of the MT. It could be a proc that does this when the MT is below 50% health or proc if the MT gets hit for more than 50% of health whatever the case may be. Now I would like to say that this would only work with 1 Guard 1 Zerk 1 Pally and 1 SK so that one of each would be needed to make it work, but how many Zerks are going to carry a board for the raid if they are not MT I know I wont I will be OT DW so that my DPS is better for the raid and have my board in my HB just incase I need to pull it out and MT. So I would say you would need at least 3 other Plate fighters in the Raid with shields up for it to work and if it happens to be multipale of the same class like 1 SK and 2 Pally or 1 Guard 2 Pally or 1 Guard 2 SK whatever the combo then it will work but the minimum of 3 would need to apply imo.
For the Brawlers well guys tbh I dont know much about your class's but I think that maybe some raid wide avoidance buffs that stack or are differant in some way so that both are needed could work for ya'll. I know that Brawlers are supposed to be the highest DPS of the fighters ( I think saw that some where or heard it not sure ). Do you have any ideas that might make it more vialble to have both class's in the raid or even something that would incorperate all the fighters into the raids.
Well that is about it untill I get some feed back and think about it some more, and please lets keep it on topic guys not calling for any nerfs or anything like that I would really like to see all the fighters have a viable spot on raids instead of the normal set up where you end up with more than 1 of most ( not all though ) other class's in a raid.
The answer here is simple: If you want 6 fighters in the raid, some of them need to be viable for something other than tanking. No raid should ever need 6 tanks.
Seems simple at first, but then the problem becomes: If one fighter class is viable aside from tanking ability, then they cannot be remotely close to tanking ability of the other fighters. Who is going to stop being a viable tank at raid level?I have an answer for you, but I will bet you, the brawler community will not like it.
So! 6 fighters in a raid, working something remotely close to optimal efficiency, is probably a lost cause. If we can get to one of each subclass (so 3 in total) as a standard setup again, that'd be a start.
I think three fighters is fine. A brawler, warrior, and crusader. No need for one of each subclass. You don't really need necromancers, conjourors, rangers, or wardens either.
I you want to bring 6 fighters you need to give them something to do other than dps.
Or you do like the zakaron fight ... but then you only need 4 fighters.
So ... paladins should be able to healer spec ... I just put some ideas .... but since paladins are "hybrids" cleric-fighter, they could with a stance specialize tanking, dps or healing. but I know, you don't bring healers just for the heals but also for the buffs ... and paladins should be able to get nice buffs to ... which they'll only be able to use when in healing mode. or when in healing stance, add effects to their current buffs so that they can really help healing.
SKs are hybrid mage-fighter so they should have a tank stance, a dps stance that would make them more mage-like. more dps, better spells, even their taunts would become damage spells -without the taunt- and their buffs would still help the group.
For zerk, monk and bruiser, they could be melee dps machines. Having a dps close to the rogues. but also they should bring other stuffs. Coz rogue dps is where it is because they debuff ... fighters, at least monks and bruisers just have 1 debuff, some buffs, but their avoidance buff should work aother way so that they still can dps and help the MT. Because right now brawlers have to choose whether dps or max their avoidance to help the MT. And it's not right, because it's one of the only class who has to choose to do one thing or another.
even guard should be able to have another role as a dps class. I usually don't talk about them coz I always see them as the perfect MT, but if your mt is a SK, you should still be able to bring a guard and thet guard would not just be a dead weight.
last, anyway you'll never bring 6 tanks, like you don't bring the 6 mages to a raid or the 6 scouts.
As long as you need so much enchanter and bards, you'll always be limited for the other class. Same if you need 7 or 8 healers, then some classes will go away.
I may be fatalist but it's too late and unless they change some things, you won't be able to bring the 24 classes to a raid. maybe if they make X5 raids you'll have 1 more groupe and then you can take some of the "unwanted" classes. Or If they change some sub-classes into ONE class, or if they share utility around the classes.
My main is a coercer so I would be pissed off if they took away some of our utility to give it t another class, but since I play a lot my bruiser right now I understand that things are not balanced and some classes are less lucky than other. Now if hey boost brawlers or any other fighter ... which class will have to leave the raid force?
Imagine, you have a sorcerer, your guild uses 3 sorcerers ... you don't have the time to up an alt and the necro becomes as usefull as your sorcerer and bring other stuff. So they need a necro to the raid ... consequence one sorcerer need to leave or change his main. If now they also need a conju, the 2nd sorcerer needs to change or he will be BU. If you're not the best sorcerer and don't have the required alt, how do you do? You spent 4 years equiping him and now you just can't use him anymore? Not really nice, same for bards or chanty. Some people managed to level up those classes for the good of the guild, now the guild doesn't need them anymore ..; what will they do? You can't just put them away because you want to raid. They want to raid too.
for me the solution would be to give each class great buffs that make them very usefull but 3 or 4 tanks should be the max in a raid force. Now guards, paladins, sks, zerk, bruisers and monks should be as wanted for their buffs and their ability do dps/heal-utility as for their tanking abilities. but if it happens, what will be the difference between those 6 classes? Because there will always be some buffs more wanted than others. The monk haste is really nice coz it buffs casters and melee .. sks only buff mages, bruisers and zerk buff melee and paladins buff healers. Guards help the defense of every class I think with their raidwide buff so they mainly help the other tanks. then only the brawlers don't have a 2 group buff, then bruisers can't even bring utility or healing to their group or raid like the monk can, and the dps is not necessarily bigger enough to make them more wanted. So balancing is not easy ... so they overpowered SK to make them wanted in a raid, now they need to make brawlers overpowered too to make them wanted in raids ...
lol for a conclusion, never gonna happen to get 6 tanks into one raid ... 4 is enough, one in each group
Well having six tanks in the first place is where the issues lies cause not all six are needed for a raid. Trying to give each of the six tanks some type of individuality will be impossible.
Some tools are better fit for a certain job and not all tools can do what other tools do. This is where the imbalance comes when a certain class shines over another in a particular situation. I like the guardain/zerker or paly/sk comparisons becuase guards and paladins are better for the tougher mobs due to having better survival skills where zerks/sk's are good ae tanks. The brawlers are so close in comparison that having two of them seems almost meaningless. Niether are good at aoe, but their dps and tanking are very close. Only a very slight advantage goes to the monk in utility since bruisers don't have utility.
All in all it will be almost impossible to make each tank have something that a raid cannot do with out.
Just because it isn't happening right now doesn't mean that things can't be changed so it does happen. I know forever SKs were always told that they were going to be behind because they are "hybrids" and everybody will want the "pure" tanks, and hence so many SKs rerolled or quit. Wow what do you know, a couple modifications and SKs are rocking now. Every raid wants a SK. Even further a lot more raids are rolling with 4 fighters now versus the 2-3 it always was in the past. They made it so fighters do bring a little bit more through DPS and their raid wide than they did in the past. A great first step.
Now to just figure out the next step so that 6 fighters are wanted on a raid. First of all making enchanter and bard abilities raid wide instead would be a great start since those classes are soaking up 1/3 of the raid. SOE needs to make it so that the optimum set up goes from having 4-5 bards and 4 enchanters to 2 bards and 2 chanters on a raid....bard and chanter abilities should be raid wide and not stack.
Next, the issue of 1/3 of the raid being made up of healers for tough mobs. 7-8 healers is pretty normal on raids so what can be done to fix that. Basically each group should "need" 1 healer, than the MT and OT group should only have to roll with 2 healers each. This one is tricky. That is what they need to change about fighters. Having additional fighters should significantly increase the survivability of the raid. Fighters should be able to protect their fellow raid members through various buffs and abilities. Soaking up damage for them, Paladins healing and curing them, SKs lifetapping for them, warriors mitigating for them, etc. Brawlers need to be given an additional role of some type of utility. Debuffs would be great to see on them, you know not something wussy but something that really makes a difference. Tanks could buff crit mit of groups, debuff mobs for crits, stoneskin group, AE immunities, honestly there is so much that could be done. And fighters should be the ones protecting groups, it should not be all on the hands of healers.
I guess my point is I always find it hilarious when people are saying it can't be done, or we are too far into the game, blah, blah, blah. Look at the major changes they bring....proc changes, the fighter changes they wanted to add, heck just going from RoK to TSO we saw a major shift suddenly in what hybrids can bring to the table through DPS because of proper itemization. 6 fighters on a raid could easily be acheived, the trick is just making it so that 6 is the optimum and not 8 like some of those other archetypes.
EDIT: Forgot the very important point that all hate manipulation for groups, transfers and buffs, should be the responsibility of fighters. Some fighters should be able to debuff hate, some should be able to transfer significant hate, some should be able to buff hate, some should be able to steal hate fromone and give it to another. How the heck hate ever got to be abilities of other classes is beyond me.
I'm sorry, but I'm not even remotely interested in seeing this as a reasonable raid build.
Anything requiring more than 3 fighters draws questions in my mind.
Atan@Unrest wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm not even remotely interested in seeing this as a reasonable raid build.Anything requiring more than 3 fighters draws questions in my mind.
I agree. I say 4 max......one tank per group. Even then it better be that there are actually 4 'things' needing to be seperately tanked.
I think its a lost cause.
This could be more done with Raids that have to split into seperate parts, or mobs that had to be tanked away from each other. Even so I think most raid guilds would simply gear an alt for those specific fights and not carry extra fighters through all the zones.
For proof note Sisters in Shard of Hate, several times I have seen it noted that if you dps fast enough or have folks that can actually heal you do not actually need a Brawler for that fight. Have fought and beat them recently without a Brawler as well.
Useful utility for all 6 fighters , possible. Hate Transfer/control is already taken.
I would suggest a new intercede style buff if anything to encourage multiple fighters in the raid. Call it shieldwall. Some of the damage taken by any fighter( 5-10% maybe ) on the raid is split between all the fighters on the raid. Maybe an additional few % for each additional different type of fighter ( guardian, berserker, monk, bruiser, shadowknight, paladin) Even so that might be too powerful. We already have the intercede line and many of us use it when there are spikes of damage, I am thinking of something much smaller, but constant.
As always my concerns are more towards entry level raiding then the top end. I still pur with alts occasionally on non- raid nights.
I don't know that 6 fighters is really what we need, but I would like to see 4 become fairly standard, and I think encouraging 1 fighter of each archetype is something to strive for.
There are three important questions here: 1)where do those extra slots come from and 2)how do we make fighters desireable enough to fill them, and 3)how do we make sure raids are rolling with a diverse spread of fighters, not just a guardian and 2 SKs, for example.
I think #1 could be filled in large part by making the groupwide buffs of bards and enchanters raidwide, and perhaps eliminating concentration slot requirements for certain enchanter spells so that one illusionist and one coercer is enough to get things done in a raid. This should hopefully leave us with 1 of each pure support class, and cuts down on the number of raid slots they monopolize without nerfing those classes. Such a decision would cause some bards to lose their slots, yes--but honestly, everyone else has to compete for their slot, and when you have folks sitting out raids or recruits hoping to join I don't think its ideal to have to have someone bot a dirge instead of bring along a full player.
#2 is trickier--how do you convince raidleaders to bring along an extra fighter instead of, say, a pure dps class? I think there are two approaches to this situation, both of which are absolutely necessary. The first is content, content, content, and I think the devs have been thinking about this a lot from the design of recent fights. Having mobs memwipe/charm (Silverwing, Xebnok, avatar of Tranquility), send in add waves (loads of encounters), summon adds that can only be killed by one group (Zarrakon), summon adds that can only be killed by one archetype (byzola, Yzlak), etc. are all great ways to make 3+ fighters obligatory, at least when the encounter is fairly new and you don't have it on farm status. The second necessity is to make us useful--but in such a way that you want multiple archetypes on a raid.
A good step in this direction was taken when they gave all fighters a raidwide and a groupwide buff (though brawlers still need a groupwide, please). Next, they need to make what each archetype can do for a raid unique and have less overlap, but still remain extremely valuable. The perfect example of such a skill is avoidance buffs--make these the sole domain of brawlers (giving plate tanks something useful in their stead) and alter them so that brawlers can use them to full effect while dpsing (for example, lower the chance for it to go off but make all avoidance count as uncontested when passed through the avoidance buff), and you create a niche for brawlers on a raid that any raidleader would be a fool not to take advantage of. Remove the avoidance buffs from warriors and give them an ability similar to the avoidance buff, only instead of transferring avoidance it has a flat % chance (say 50%) of using the warrior's mitigation instead of the targets when the target is hit. Take away the crusader's avoidance buff and give them an ability that they place on another that gives the target a 5-10% chance to stoneskin an incoming hit. Then make these 3 abilities stack with eachother, but not with themselves (i.e., you could have a guardian with his mitigation lend on the monk, while receiving a stoneskin and an avoidance lend from the monk and the paladin).
Giving fighters some serious buffs that go on other fighters would go a long way towards bringing multiple tanks along, in my opinion.
You will never see all 6 fighters in an optimal raid setup because the current optimal raid setup requires 4 chanters and 4 bards. You have to sacrifice some classes to fit those extra 4 support classes and fighters are the perfect place to do it since you really only need MT, and OT, and an OOT (??).
Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:
It just doesn't hold water. If content requries 4 tanks, it can be done with 2 tanks.
I know thats a generalizaiton, but 4 tanks means more heal targets meaning less focused healing. Generally if you have 4 mobs on 4 fighters, its easyer to have 4 mobs on 2 fighters, and ultimately if you can survive it, 4 mobs on 1 fighter.
Its all about a pool of HP that your healing. If your healers are good enough, one 30k pool is plenty for most fights. A few require a 60k pool (2 fighters), but none require a 50k pool.
The only way to enforce more healers is to do it with artificial restrictions like they added to SoH. And while that was mildly interesting and all for a bit, if all encounters, or even a large portion of encounters had such hockey tank dancing scripts, we'd all get tired of it really quick.
As I've said before, i have a very hard time seeing many scripts needing more than 3 fighters unless they're just specifically designed to have that barrier point, in which case, i'm not a big fan of that sollution.
3 fighters is fine, and maybe someday we can build the buff selection robust enough to allow for one of each subclass to be prefered. The problem here is, one side of the sub-class will almost always 'edge' out the other. Guard, Sk, Monk becomes the preffered path as an example. Sure Pal, Zerker, Bruiser might work as an alternative, but it wont be a common or preferred solution.
Lastly adding scripted requirements for more fighters will not get more fighters in a raid guild. We'll simply log in alts for those annoying scripts and move on.
@Atan
You'll note my suggestion included a lot more than content-based solutions. I also suggested some small changes that would make bringing one tank of each archetype drastically improve survivability (3 types of stacking tank-to-tank buffs instead of just the avoidance buff as we have now). With this suggestion, if you wanted to have your SK MT try to keep aggro on absolutely everything, the other tanks would be quite helpful with that whole "not dying" thing.
Will some guilds forego running with a 3rd or 4th tank and just try to gear up alts? Sure...or they'll try. Even there you can force some measure of diversity just through itemization. Plate and Leather tank gear only really overlaps when it comes to jewelry, and as a result it is far, far easier to gear up 2 plate tanks and a brawler than it is to gear 3 plate tanks. Differentiating Warrior and Crusader gear might help with that as well. In the end though, its often more of a pain to switch in a wizard for clearing trash than it is to just have your brawler there the whole time.
Look, chances are any attempt we make won't be perfect, and some guilds will find ways to sidestep it. Things don't have to be absolutely perfect, oor work 100% of the time. Improvement is improvement.
A good step in this direction was taken when they gave all fighters a raidwide and a groupwide buff (though brawlers still need a groupwide, please). Next, they need to make what each archetype can do for a raid unique and have less overlap, but still remain extremely valuable. The perfect example of such a skill is avoidance buffs--make these the sole domain of brawlers (giving plate tanks something useful in their stead) and alter them so that brawlers can use them to full effect while dpsing (for example, lower the chance for it to go off but make all avoidance count as uncontested when passed through the avoidance buff), and you create a niche for brawlers on a raid that any raidleader would be a fool not to take advantage of. Remove the avoidance buffs from warriors and give them an ability similar to the avoidance buff, only instead of transferring avoidance it has a flat % chance (say 50%) of using the warrior's mitigation instead of the targets when the target is hit. Take away the crusader's avoidance buff and give them an ability that they place on another that gives the target a 5-10% chance to stoneskin an incoming hit. Then make these 3 abilities stack with eachother, but not with themselves (i.e., you could have a guardian with his mitigation lend on the monk, while receiving a stoneskin and an avoidance lend from the monk and the paladin).Giving fighters some serious buffs that go on other fighters would go a long way towards bringing multiple tanks along, in my opinion.
I was following ya and liking the idea but then I got confused by the bolded area. I like the idea but making these a raidwide instead of single target would probably be a cleaner and more desireable effect. Keeping the same hate transfers (AA's for monks, not sure for other fighters but they should have this if they dont)as they are now on those buffs would help control hate in a raid and group setup(if 2 fighters decided to group together). Basically working as a hate "splashout" by stealing raid hate and syphoning it to the other fighters in the raid.(again only knowing about the monk aa's but the syphoning effect if the buff is on a non-fighter and the feeding effect if it is on a fighter both working at the same time since it would go from single target to a raidwide)
That way both the MT and OT would benefit from hate disipitation of the raid, the raid benefits from the extra surviveability lended by the additional fighters, and the additional fighter benefits from just being a viable filler.
Oh and making heals from the healers land on the person who is targeted at the end of the cast when through-targeting through the mob would also make flip tanking viable, instead of wasting it on a corpse or someone who isn't the target of the mob anymore. Just a pet peave of mine when I play my healer and when I emergency grab a mob and the healers spells are wasted on the dead tank and I drop when I play my monk.
At start I was thining they could merge the fighters into 3 classes, but I am honestly not sure that is the way to go anymore..
I like a lot of the ideas posted here, and I really do hope we have a dev following this talk here, cause this is really a place where all the real users get to share their thoughts..
As a Bruiser myself, I know how hard it is to get a spot in a raid, but to make it so that all raids would prefer at least 1 brawler, 1 crusader and 1 warrior would for sure be the best thing done in EQ2 for a long time..
