As the monk in our raidforce, I find that tranquil vision (monk avoidance lend) can be a huge buff when placed on our main tank. If I go fully defensive, giving up most of my dps in the process, I often find that I avoid between 20 and 30% of incoming blows for the main tank. Shield ally often acounts for an additional 4-10%.
(Avoidance report is for a Zarrakon kill, Vestris is a Shadowknight, Avanlei a templer with SA on her, and Vinka a monk with tranquil vision on her).
As you can see from the above ACT avoidance report, our main tank avoided only 21.34% of incoming attacks herself. She received an additional 10.98% avoidance from stoneskins, and a whopping 25.61% avoidance from the monk and 4.27% avoidance from the templar.
As a brawler assisting her to MT, I can reduce incoming damage by 25%.
In comparison, when a plate tank or cleric puts their avoidance buff on a brawler, we receive marginal benefits at best. Because our own avoidance is higher, it has a lower chance of giving us a second roll in the first place, and even if we get to roll using a plate tanks avoidance, because their innate avoidance is fairly low, they are unlikely to avoid a blow for us.
All together, this means that Plate tanks have a way to bypass their weakness as a tank of low avoidance, while brawlers, on the other hand, have no equivalent means to deal with our weak spot of low mitigation. This is a trend present in many areas of the game (uncontested avoidance is available to plate tanks in the form of avoidance lends, food/drink, wrist adorns, slashing weapons adorns, etc., while brawlers have no equivalent way of raising our mitigation). So long as this is the case, when you have a brawler and a plate tank in a raid, it is often better to choose the plate tank as MT, even if they have slightly lower quality gear. Class, more than skill, determines who tanks.
I would like to see some means by which plate tanks can do for brawlers what brawlers can do for plate tanks--a mitigation lend. Crusaders have something along these lines, but their spell has two main flaws: 1)it drains mitigation from the crusader, and 2) the mitigation amount is simply miniscule compared to what a brawler can give with our avoidance lend. I would like to suggest the following to remedy this:
*Replace the warrior and crusader avoidance lends with a mitigation lend. Because you don't "fail" mitigation checks the way you do avoidance, the mechanics of this would have to be somewhat different than for avoidance lends, but I would suggest something along the lines of a 50% chance at master 1 to use the caster's mitigation rather than the target's. Ideally, this effect would stack with brawler's avoidance lends. With 3 tanks in raid, I would like to see a plate offtank with mitigation lend on a brawler offtank who also has his avoidance lend on the plate main tank.
Introducing such a spell would accomplish the following
Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:
I would like to suggest the following to remedy this:*Replace the warrior and crusader avoidance lends with a mitigation lend.
I would like to suggest the following to remedy this:
*Replace the warrior and crusader avoidance lends with a mitigation lend.
Crusaders can do this already - Donation of Armament
Warriors have temporary group mitigation boosts.
Terron@Splitpaw wrote:
Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote: I would like to suggest the following to remedy this:*Replace the warrior and crusader avoidance lends with a mitigation lend. Crusaders can do this already - Donation of ArmamentWarriors have temporary group mitigation boosts.
Did you even read the post?
The Crusader mit buff became useless when they added in diminishing returns. The gain from lending somebody that little mitigation is miniscule.
I agree with the OP. Maybe change the Warrior avoidance check to be a +mit bonus, like 10%. Maybe change the Crusader avoidance buff to be a "hybrid" version of this where the target has +5% mit buff and 30% to use the Crusader avoidance check.
Bruener wrote:
Maybe change the Warrior avoidance check to be a +mit bonus, like 10%. Why? How many times do you have a bralwer tanking when there is a plate around anyway? If anything I'd rather have the guardian raidwide buff have stoneskin procs that don't work for the guardian, or a stoneskin proc on Unyielding Vigallance (our avoid buff). But tbh, I don't feel a change is necissary to avoid buffs. Maybe via AA to change it to a mit buff for people that want to take that path, IDK.
Maybe change the Warrior avoidance check to be a +mit bonus, like 10%.
Why? How many times do you have a bralwer tanking when there is a plate around anyway? If anything I'd rather have the guardian raidwide buff have stoneskin procs that don't work for the guardian, or a stoneskin proc on Unyielding Vigallance (our avoid buff). But tbh, I don't feel a change is necissary to avoid buffs. Maybe via AA to change it to a mit buff for people that want to take that path, IDK.
One of the problems with the crusader's mitigation lend is that it isn't a lend, its a siphon. The crusader loses mitigation when they put it on another tank, which is a very undesierable option if you're in a situation where you need both tanks able to, well, tank. Besides which, its a very small amount of mit, nothing even remotely comparable to the 25% incoming damage reduction a brawler can give a plate tank.
As for Rahatmatta's question, there are many, many encounters in raids where you need multiple tanks. And let's face it--gearing up say, 4 plate tanks for Zarrakon is way, way harder than gearing up 2 plate tanks and 2 brawlers. Brawlers don't compete with plates for gear, and with the right spec and equipment choices can be decent dps if a tank isn't needed, while that 4th plate tank is deadweight when they're not tanking. Having a brawler around is good to have some use for all that brawler-only gear that drops.
At the same time, if a brawler can't tank for you when necessary, they're every bit as much excess weight as an extra guardian. Look, I'm by no means trying to vie for MT--my raidforce has an incredible MT that I would never dream of trying to replace. But if our OT isn't around for a gynok kill, I'd like to be able to OT his adds in a pinch. When the Avatar of Tranquility has just charmed our MT and OT is quick succession, I want to be able to tank Wu the Enlightened. Brawlers are tanks, and we're actually quite good at it, but one of our biggest weaknesses is that we have no way of compensating for our low mitigation like plate tanks can compensate for their low avoidance.
Well, to be blunt, the +mitigation increases on set armor have compromised the ability of brawlers to tank by comparison, as well as additional phyiscal damage reduction abilities on armor. I really doubt the devs have any idea how large the gap is once the mit increases work their magic. Some way to help narrow that gap would be pretty wise, though I don't know if a mitigation lend is the best way - I'd tend to think a healer ability would be wiser, so brawlers wouldn't be out of luck if the fighter who buffs them who almost certainly is tanking before them croaks.
I totally agree and support the idea crusaders should be buff bots for brawlers, SOE make it happen!
Oh crap, you brought something good about brawlers into public forums.. I give it to the next update that they aren't working on someway to hit us with the nerf stick once again...
Brawlers... not one ca improvement since EoF, 10 nerfs in a row.
The last concerted effort to deal with fighter balance (i.e., the unfortunately canceled fighter revamp) basically had nothing but good things for brawlers. If that had gone through we would be having as many brawler OTs as we currently do zerks and paladins, which is something to strive for if you ask me (much as I would like to be a viable MT, I think we're a long ways off from that still). I honestly think that with the next expansion it'll be brawler's turn to shine, which means now is the time to make our suggestions about how to make it happen.
Toran@Oasis wrote:
Not this again... /sigh
General Fighter Forum, this is the correct place for this discussion.
No this isn't the place for the fighter vs fighter disussion. Now go back under your rock plz, thanks.
I believe Kiara specifically cited class balance discussions as something that would belong in the archetype forums when she set them up, so why the negativity? Its not like this is another "OMG Nerf SKs!" thread--heck, I'm suggesting *adding* something to the plate tanks, not taking anything away. Class balance is a complicated issue, and one that deserves a lot of careful thought--I'm just pointing out one easily missed but very significant aspect of class interactions that results in a very large disparity in tanking ability. I'm not asking to be a guardian...just that brawlers have similar options for upping our mitigation as plate tanks do for upping their avoidance.
No your suggesting (or hoping) that brawlers get volted into stardom like SKs did. That is not the path that needs to be taken.
You get that from reading the posts in this thread...how?
