Well here's my two cents.

I agree with most that having more than 2-3 fighters in a raid will never happen, because of the focused healing concept, where if there are 5 adds, you dont send 1 fighter at each one, you get 1 ae tank to get them all so the healers can just heal/buff that one tank.

This post is more going along the lines which many other classes are frustrated at: having a raid spot. Fighters, summoners, rangers, druids, and sometimes warlocks generally arent needed/wanted. We can thank TSO content for that slightly, because 8 healers is now the bar and we can thank soe for overpowering enchanters and bards(4 and 4 for raid setups). 8 healers(clerics and shammans ousting druids), 8 support, 2 tanks, 2 rogues leaves 4 spots left, which generally is one of the follow: 2nd brig, assassin, wizard, warlock(if gynok), brawler.

For those poor classes that CAN'T get their spots, fighters aren't alone, and i don't mean to be pessimistic, but you won't see it in eq2, mechanics have been setup for far too long to somehow make it so that 24 classes uniquely fill 24 raid spots(which is how it should be). Eq3, if it comes out, might be your best bet. Reason I can say this, is b/c I play a ranger   

We use two rangers in our raid setup.

Gage wrote:

We use two rangers in our raid setup.

 Rangers are extremely underrated/underutilized for what a decent one can and does put out with VP gear and beyond.

Sadly I am no longer raiding on my Ranger.

Here is the thing you say ""This post is more going along the lines which many other classes are frustrated at: having a raid spot."" That is not really the point of this although it may seem like it.  The point of this is how to make us viable not really take the spots from these other class's just make us a viable option to take give us something that will make the raid go well you know with 4 tanks doing X ability to increase Mit or spread damage of the MT to the other fighters we can do this still. 

I am not sure if everyone unstands what I am getting at and I blame the fact that this is a wall of text and not a face to face conversation where so much more can be understood/implied.  So I will say this again and I hope that this is apperant.  My reason for starting this thread is not to bump class's from raid spots, it is to try and find a way to make taking 4 fighters or even 6 a viable option that would not decrease the surviability of the raid.  In other words a raid force compliled of 24 differant class's ( imo what should be the optimal set up ) is able to do the exact same thing as a raid comprised of 1-2 tanks 8 healers 4 bards 4 Chanters 2 Scouts and 4-5 DPS.  I hope this makes things a little clearer for those who are looking at this and going wtf is going on here lol.  If not sorry I cannot explain my intentions better, I guess that is why I am a mechanic and not a writer  

Gage wrote:

Scipius@Splitpaw wrote:

As a Bruiser myself, I know how hard it is to get a spot in a raid, but to make it so that all raids would prefer at least 1 brawler, 1 crusader and 1 warrior would for sure be the best thing done in EQ2 for a long time..

Today is your lucky day because that is the setup most raid guilds use!

Not sure what rock you are hiding under..

I spend a little over 4 weeks trying to convince my rl (Who is also Guardian MT) that my Bruiser would be an asset to the raidforce, but with no luck what so ever..

Ended up playing my bard for way longer than I really wanted, while looking for a new guild.

Took me 5 weeks and about 10 nay sayers before I finally found a raidleader (Also Guardian MT) that was willing to let me in and give me a chance at a spot in all raids..

Warrior + 2 x Crusaders is the most used setup atm I think, 1 pally 1 sk, and I would love it if that where to chance so raid would be Warrior, Crusader and Brawler..

Then it would be up to all raid leaders to chose if they want, Guard/Zerker, SK/ Pally or Bruiser/Monk.. Would be something I could cope with a lot more, than being turned down because they already have a 3rd or even 4th plate tank..

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

In other words a raid force compliled of 24 differant class's ( imo what should be the optimal set up ) is able to do the exact same thing as a raid comprised of 1-2 tanks 8 healers 4 bards 4 Chanters 2 Scouts and 4-5 DPS.  I hope this makes things a little clearer for those who are looking at this and going wtf is going on here lol.  

That will not and should not ever happen.  That is just silly to even say.

Also, the "ideal" raid has not been and will never be one of each class.

Why should it not happen?  What is your reasoning that it should not happen?  Now keep in mind that while IMO 24 class's should be the optimal set up I agree that its not.  I do not however see why a raid of all 24 class's should not be able to clear the same content and be a viable option to do it ( read not optimal but viable ) 

This is part of the problem IMO people tend to think OMG they are going after my raid spot they are going after my nitch my lil piece of the pie.  That is not the case here I am not in any way shape or form saying that Raids the way they are right now should have to change.  I am just asking what can be done to make it a viable option to do it differantly with out decreasing the surviability of the raid in regards to taking more fighters on the raid or all 24 class's on a raid.  What is wrong with that with making it so that more players can experiance end game content and enjoy doing so bringing something to the raid that is needed.  Enough though with the oh it cannot be done it should not be done and its just silly comments. 

Back on topic I really like some of the ideas that we have here lets talk a bit more about them and get some more going here to see what we come up with to make this a viable option guys and gals.

I really like the idea of giving each fighter type -read Warrior - Crusader - Brawler, a different single target, or even raidwide fighter buff, as already mentioned, should be something that does not affect the classes giving..

So Warriors give Mitigation to ALL Crusaders and Brawlers in raid, but not other Warriors, Crusaders give a huge HP buff to the 2 others and Brawlers gives some uncontested Avoidance. Should not stack ofc, so there would not be any reason to bring 2 Crusaders fx. Also the buff should remain the same no matter what stance the fighter is in, that way you can bring a sk in full dps stance and still have some use for him when there si no need for an OT..

if something like this happened I would be pretty sure ALL raids would ALWAYS bring 1 of each fighter to their raids.

As for fitting all 24 classes in a raid, I'm pretty sure it was never their intention, BUT the classes should be so balanced that you could chose between them all, and still have a chance to put down what you want to.. This is however a completely different talk, and I do think for now we should try to focus on getting not 6 fighters in raid, but 1 of each archtype..

Edit cause spelling is damn hard

That is what I am getting at tbh 1 of each arch type would be nice as you put it, and I like your idea about the warrior raising mit ,crusader buffing HP, the Brawler giving avoidance I still think ( and this is going for 4 fighters not 3 ) that they should stack or be differant in a way and help each fighter not just the none arch types in the raid, but make them equal in some way so that each could be used in place of the other and no better or worse than the other.

Some examples that come to mind would be:

1 Guards Buff Mit stone skins and such to all fighters in the raid

2 Zerks Buff Less Mit but added DPS to all fighters in the raid

3 Pally Buff total health of all fighters in the raid

4 SK Buff health regen of all fighters in raid threw life tap procs

5 Bruisers Buff uncontested avoidance to all fighters in the raid

6 Monk Buffs less uncontested avoidance but add something else to all fighters in the raid

I also really like the idea of makeing Hate management the responsibility of fighters we should ( imo ) be the ones dealing with this and directing it to the MT.

I also like the differant variations of the shield wall type thing that have come up and tbh I think that something like this might be the most likely option to make this happen as the Mit buff could be just enough to require 1 less healer chanter or bard if its set up right not making the optimal option of course but viable and would get 3 Plate fighters in the raid with the 4th fighter being a brawler with one of the buffs mentioned above possabley or even setting up the buffs listed above and setting up the shield wall type buff ( without making it op of course ) so that they could be used togather to make a viable option. 

Gage wrote:

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

In other words a raid force compliled of 24 differant class's ( imo what should be the optimal set up ) is able to do the exact same thing as a raid comprised of 1-2 tanks 8 healers 4 bards 4 Chanters 2 Scouts and 4-5 DPS.  I hope this makes things a little clearer for those who are looking at this and going wtf is going on here lol.  

That will not and should not ever happen.  That is just silly to even say.

Also, the "ideal" raid has not been and will never be one of each class.

Four bards and four chanters are the standard. Now lets say that both of the two scouts are missing or two of the dps players can't make it to the raid.

Now to fill those spots a raid leader could bring fighter classes to fill those spots but bringing in more chanters or bards would again be better not just becuase of utility but for the high dps they can inflict. Most certainly the chanters.

The only reason I think that the buffs should be the same and not stack is because it would be plain stupid for a raidleader to take 2 warriors > 1 warrior and 1 Brawler if he knew that his second warrior gave nothing at all to the raid where as the Brawler would give something..

If they make 6 different buffs there will also be a long talk about which are better than the others and stuff like that..

with 3 buffs only there would be no reason for "crybabys" as you would love to have em all and there for make room for em also

Gage wrote:

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

In other words a raid force compliled of 24 differant class's ( imo what should be the optimal set up ) is able to do the exact same thing as a raid comprised of 1-2 tanks 8 healers 4 bards 4 Chanters 2 Scouts and 4-5 DPS.  I hope this makes things a little clearer for those who are looking at this and going wtf is going on here lol.  

That will not and should not ever happen.  That is just silly to even say.

Also, the "ideal" raid has not been and will never be one of each class.

LoL, what Gage are you scared that you are going to lose your "second" ranger spot?  Just because something is not working that way now does not mean that things are working correctly.  It is not just irony that EQ2 was made with 24 classes and only 24 spots on raids.  Its amazing because some people just can't seem to think outside of thier little EQ2 box that is the current form of the game.  Hey, remember last expansion when hardly anybody used SKs on their rosters and just about every guild had a monk?  Or how about in T5 when basically everything was a tank and spank with one MT and no OT really needed?

Just because you don't want it to change to this Gage doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed, nor does it mean that it won't.  That other ranger must be pretty good in the guild, since you seem worried about that extra spot leaving.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

First off, what is displayed in the persona window and what you actually avoid against an epic encounter are very, very different things.  While a plate tank can easily get their persona window to SAY they have 78% avoidance, take a look at your avoidance reports and I think you'll find your actual avoidance is far, far lower than that against high-level mobs.  Uncontested avoidance is what matters for raids, and plate tanks can basically only raise that via food, drink, and adornments.

My own avoidance is about 92%, a little over 60% of which is probably uncontested--the reason my avoidance reports are so high is because a)I have extremely high avoidance, even for a monk and b)in the fights I parsed I'm in defensive stance and defensive gear.  If your monk is in offensive stance and is dpsing, his numbers will be far, far lower, since if that is the case he essentially has no more uncontested avoidance than a plate tank.  This is one of the serious issues with brawler desireability, since we can't both perform as utility to the maximum of our ability and dps.  

 

I fully understand contested vs uncontested avoidance, and while I haven't tried to find your gear to inspect it, I HIGHLY doubt your remotely near 50% uncontested.  If you were, we'd be looking at brawler MT + Brawler Avoidance.  IE, 50% uncontested brawler avoidance + 18% shield ally + 12% PoS + 25% avoidance from 2nd brawler putting avoidance on 1st brawler == only strike thru damage.

I'll contend that my guard avoidance reports will match your brawler avoidance reports vs epics within 5% deviation.  Which was the point I was trying to make with why we'd just bring more plate over a brawler.

Bruener wrote:

Gage wrote:

That will not and should not ever happen.  That is just silly to even say.

Also, the "ideal" raid has not been and will never be one of each class.

Just because you don't want it to change to this Gage doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed, nor does it mean that it won't.  That other ranger must be pretty good in the guild, since you seem worried about that extra spot leaving.

Not only will it NOT be changed, I don't think it is even possible to make it true.

Because whatever is given to each class, players will find a way to better stack that than the person ballancing intended.  Simply put, the equation when taking in for all possible variables is far too complex to reach some magical harmony when one of each class is present.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

First off, what is displayed in the persona window and what you actually avoid against an epic encounter are very, very different things.  While a plate tank can easily get their persona window to SAY they have 78% avoidance, take a look at your avoidance reports and I think you'll find your actual avoidance is far, far lower than that against high-level mobs.  Uncontested avoidance is what matters for raids, and plate tanks can basically only raise that via food, drink, and adornments.

My own avoidance is about 92%, a little over 60% of which is probably uncontested--the reason my avoidance reports are so high is because a)I have extremely high avoidance, even for a monk and b)in the fights I parsed I'm in defensive stance and defensive gear.  If your monk is in offensive stance and is dpsing, his numbers will be far, far lower, since if that is the case he essentially has no more uncontested avoidance than a plate tank.  This is one of the serious issues with brawler desireability, since we can't both perform as utility to the maximum of our ability and dps.  

 

I fully understand contested vs uncontested avoidance, and while I haven't tried to find your gear to inspect it, I HIGHLY doubt your remotely near 50% uncontested.  If you were, we'd be looking at brawler MT + Brawler Avoidance.  IE, 50% uncontested brawler avoidance + 18% shield ally + 12% PoS + 25% avoidance from 2nd brawler putting avoidance on 1st brawler == only strike thru damage.

I'll contend that my guard avoidance reports will match your brawler avoidance reports vs epics within 5% deviation.  Which was the point I was trying to make with why we'd just bring more plate over a brawler.

Thats not really how avoidance and avoidance checks work though.  But 50% uncontested is pretty easy to attain actually.

EDIT:

You can get 5 dodge from helm, 6 from Fist, 4.4 from food drink so 15.4% dodge. 

You can get 6% riposte from set bp another 6% from 6 set bonus, 2% from neck so 14% riposte.

You can get 3% parry from 2 wrist items, 6% parry from 2 wrist adorns, 3% from cloak so 12% parry.

And then add in a fully AA'd defensive stance with lets say 55% deflection mod and mythical  for 41.8% min deflection with a proc from anashti ring that will bring you up to 48.6%

So as you can see 50% is not only possible it it relatively easy to attain.  Still doesn't matter though brawlers will still get squashed because avoidance doesn't mean jack all when mobs strike through everything and you don't have the mit to take the hits.