Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Orthureon wrote:You must not be too familiar with classes. My wife has a Warden and looking at her AA AND playing it at 80 mind you, they have more utility than an Inquisitor. What huge defensive buffs do Inquisitors get, I would LOVE to know. We get 2 groupwide buffs, just like EVERY OTHER healer. Then we get Tenacity, which gives around 1k HP and 36 DPS (M1). Each cast takes one concentration to use thus nearly always requiring us to cancel another buff in its place to give people more health. Our damage proc Act of War, has a 0.9 to 1 time per minute proc rate (nearly always very bottom of the parse), with pretty low damage, about half or less of the Templars heal proc based buff, which has a higher proc rate. Shield Ally is no comparision to Tortoise Shell aswell.Please people before giving your opinion REALLY look at the classes. The only huge thing we (Inquisitors) get over all other healers is Steadfast and that is really only ever useful soloing, which I mean what good content can you solo now with any class? You realize our mythical clicky cure was based off the Wardens cure Purity? Wardens regen far more power than an Inquisitor, when it used to be the other way around. Might I add you get your power back by doing the thing that consumes the most power, healing. Which also happens to be all healers primary role, while the Inquisitor must rely on this proc that only triggers off of hostile actions. Might I add it barely ever procs anymore, I find myself running OOP quite often, not sure what happened there.As for temp buffs an Inquisitor gets that could only really be Divine Recovery and that requires 24 points of AA to get, thus sacrificing something else in turn. If you think Devotion is a temp buff you could be considered correct, however not being able to heal unless you want to run OOP REALLY fast. If you don't have the Enhanced AA line, not being able to cast ANYTHING while it is active is a pretty big drawback aswell only making it useful when you can keep the group up with a group reactive, single target reactive and Inquisition. The Enhanced ability itself costs 5 points, nevermind the other points you must spend to actually get it.Survivability wise, you realize Wardens and Shamans can get the same EXACT mit as Clerics, aswell as having more avoidance. Warden can no longer use the Plate vs Leather argument as a crutch anymore. Especially since the developers themselves feel that they should only have to design leather armor since all Priests can use it."That will be nerfed with the proc changes since the power regen does crit based on heal crit also. How bad we will probably not be able to see until it goes live." I am glad you brought this up, you realize Inquisitors rely on proc healing more than ANY other healer to do their job, which will really hurt their heal parse.This post is a good example of how your perspective can radically change based on where you are in the game. For example, the reason myself and a lot of other people say steadfast is overpowered is because a lot of high-end fights in the game utilize interrupts as disruption, such as 'interrupt curses' that will permanently interrupt a cast that any player will attempt. Steadfast is basically broken in that it totally circumvents mechanics on a lot of raid encounters, in addition to allowing you to ignore the main drawback of items such as mortal coil which causes tons of interrupts for anyone but a steadfast cleric.Comparing tortoiseshell to shield ally is another example. Shield ally is arguably the most overpowered priest ability in the game due to the amount of damage it can negate. Clerics who boost up their avoidance with wrist parry adornments, a good shield, and parry/dodge food negate an enormous amount of damage, and it's more or less indispensible for anything difficult. Tortoiseshell, on the other hand, is of pretty limited and specific use, and really doesn't compensate for having a druid in the raid to begin with.Like the strongest utility ability inquisitors get all by themselves is fanatical devotion, which I'm assuming you didn't mention because you might not have it yet. On trash clears it's pretty impressive from a raid dps standpoint, and helps to make up for your old stifling haste buff becoming pointless due to people hitting caps.Plate vs leather isn't a good argument either, though the number of physical AEs makes it more significant than you think. But the nature of group hp buffs, which inquisitors do get if you have your 4-set from TSO, is incredibly important. You can increase the survivability of squishies in a group by an enormous degree that druids can't hope to duplicate. But this is only true if you do have group-wide tenacity, so I could understand your perspective if you don't have access to that yet.
Orthureon wrote:
You must not be too familiar with classes. My wife has a Warden and looking at her AA AND playing it at 80 mind you, they have more utility than an Inquisitor. What huge defensive buffs do Inquisitors get, I would LOVE to know. We get 2 groupwide buffs, just like EVERY OTHER healer. Then we get Tenacity, which gives around 1k HP and 36 DPS (M1). Each cast takes one concentration to use thus nearly always requiring us to cancel another buff in its place to give people more health. Our damage proc Act of War, has a 0.9 to 1 time per minute proc rate (nearly always very bottom of the parse), with pretty low damage, about half or less of the Templars heal proc based buff, which has a higher proc rate. Shield Ally is no comparision to Tortoise Shell aswell.Please people before giving your opinion REALLY look at the classes. The only huge thing we (Inquisitors) get over all other healers is Steadfast and that is really only ever useful soloing, which I mean what good content can you solo now with any class? You realize our mythical clicky cure was based off the Wardens cure Purity? Wardens regen far more power than an Inquisitor, when it used to be the other way around. Might I add you get your power back by doing the thing that consumes the most power, healing. Which also happens to be all healers primary role, while the Inquisitor must rely on this proc that only triggers off of hostile actions. Might I add it barely ever procs anymore, I find myself running OOP quite often, not sure what happened there.As for temp buffs an Inquisitor gets that could only really be Divine Recovery and that requires 24 points of AA to get, thus sacrificing something else in turn. If you think Devotion is a temp buff you could be considered correct, however not being able to heal unless you want to run OOP REALLY fast. If you don't have the Enhanced AA line, not being able to cast ANYTHING while it is active is a pretty big drawback aswell only making it useful when you can keep the group up with a group reactive, single target reactive and Inquisition. The Enhanced ability itself costs 5 points, nevermind the other points you must spend to actually get it.Survivability wise, you realize Wardens and Shamans can get the same EXACT mit as Clerics, aswell as having more avoidance. Warden can no longer use the Plate vs Leather argument as a crutch anymore. Especially since the developers themselves feel that they should only have to design leather armor since all Priests can use it."That will be nerfed with the proc changes since the power regen does crit based on heal crit also. How bad we will probably not be able to see until it goes live." I am glad you brought this up, you realize Inquisitors rely on proc healing more than ANY other healer to do their job, which will really hurt their heal parse.
You must not be too familiar with classes. My wife has a Warden and looking at her AA AND playing it at 80 mind you, they have more utility than an Inquisitor. What huge defensive buffs do Inquisitors get, I would LOVE to know. We get 2 groupwide buffs, just like EVERY OTHER healer. Then we get Tenacity, which gives around 1k HP and 36 DPS (M1). Each cast takes one concentration to use thus nearly always requiring us to cancel another buff in its place to give people more health. Our damage proc Act of War, has a 0.9 to 1 time per minute proc rate (nearly always very bottom of the parse), with pretty low damage, about half or less of the Templars heal proc based buff, which has a higher proc rate. Shield Ally is no comparision to Tortoise Shell aswell.
Please people before giving your opinion REALLY look at the classes. The only huge thing we (Inquisitors) get over all other healers is Steadfast and that is really only ever useful soloing, which I mean what good content can you solo now with any class? You realize our mythical clicky cure was based off the Wardens cure Purity? Wardens regen far more power than an Inquisitor, when it used to be the other way around. Might I add you get your power back by doing the thing that consumes the most power, healing. Which also happens to be all healers primary role, while the Inquisitor must rely on this proc that only triggers off of hostile actions. Might I add it barely ever procs anymore, I find myself running OOP quite often, not sure what happened there.
As for temp buffs an Inquisitor gets that could only really be Divine Recovery and that requires 24 points of AA to get, thus sacrificing something else in turn. If you think Devotion is a temp buff you could be considered correct, however not being able to heal unless you want to run OOP REALLY fast. If you don't have the Enhanced AA line, not being able to cast ANYTHING while it is active is a pretty big drawback aswell only making it useful when you can keep the group up with a group reactive, single target reactive and Inquisition. The Enhanced ability itself costs 5 points, nevermind the other points you must spend to actually get it.
Survivability wise, you realize Wardens and Shamans can get the same EXACT mit as Clerics, aswell as having more avoidance. Warden can no longer use the Plate vs Leather argument as a crutch anymore. Especially since the developers themselves feel that they should only have to design leather armor since all Priests can use it.
"That will be nerfed with the proc changes since the power regen does crit based on heal crit also. How bad we will probably not be able to see until it goes live."
I am glad you brought this up, you realize Inquisitors rely on proc healing more than ANY other healer to do their job, which will really hurt their heal parse.
This post is a good example of how your perspective can radically change based on where you are in the game. For example, the reason myself and a lot of other people say steadfast is overpowered is because a lot of high-end fights in the game utilize interrupts as disruption, such as 'interrupt curses' that will permanently interrupt a cast that any player will attempt. Steadfast is basically broken in that it totally circumvents mechanics on a lot of raid encounters, in addition to allowing you to ignore the main drawback of items such as mortal coil which causes tons of interrupts for anyone but a steadfast cleric.
Comparing tortoiseshell to shield ally is another example. Shield ally is arguably the most overpowered priest ability in the game due to the amount of damage it can negate. Clerics who boost up their avoidance with wrist parry adornments, a good shield, and parry/dodge food negate an enormous amount of damage, and it's more or less indispensible for anything difficult. Tortoiseshell, on the other hand, is of pretty limited and specific use, and really doesn't compensate for having a druid in the raid to begin with.
Like the strongest utility ability inquisitors get all by themselves is fanatical devotion, which I'm assuming you didn't mention because you might not have it yet. On trash clears it's pretty impressive from a raid dps standpoint, and helps to make up for your old stifling haste buff becoming pointless due to people hitting caps.
Plate vs leather isn't a good argument either, though the number of physical AEs makes it more significant than you think. But the nature of group hp buffs, which inquisitors do get if you have your 4-set from TSO, is incredibly important. You can increase the survivability of squishies in a group by an enormous degree that druids can't hope to duplicate. But this is only true if you do have group-wide tenacity, so I could understand your perspective if you don't have access to that yet.
I have both of my endline stances aswell as FD. Which ONLY parses high if the Inquisitor procs it, then the group gets the proc. As you know some fights you cannot get close enough or you will get hit with an AoE that has the potential of killing you. Interrupt DoTs huh, I have never seen them myself but it is well known that DoTs themselves cause interrupts.
As for group wide tenacity, yeah it is good IF you have the gear, and then what happens when that gear is outdated? Never use gear as an argument, except for maybe forseeable upgrades such as Mythical 2.0.
Also, I got my Agility up to around 600 aswell as a bunch of +defense, aswell as using the Shield of Rainbow Hues (highest protection shield that I know of that we can use). My avoidance sat at a weak 30%. If anyone has any suggestions on how to get this higher, except via adornments I know of those.
Sprinng@Nagafen wrote:
Orthureon wrote: The only huge thing we (Inquisitors) get over all other healers is Steadfast and that is really only ever useful soloing, which I mean what good content can you solo now with any class? Templars get that too, do they not? Thats Cleric STR Tree if i recall...
The only huge thing we (Inquisitors) get over all other healers is Steadfast and that is really only ever useful soloing, which I mean what good content can you solo now with any class?
Templars get that too, do they not? Thats Cleric STR Tree if i recall...
Yes both Clerics get it from Str line, I was speaking about the Inquisitor. Templar gets many nice things over other healers.
I have both of my endline stances aswell as FD. Which ONLY parses high if the Inquisitor procs it, then the group gets the proc. As you know some fights you cannot get close enough or you will get hit with an AoE that has the potential of killing you. Interrupt DoTs huh, I have never seen them myself but it is well known that DoTs themselves cause interrupts.As for group wide tenacity, yeah it is good IF you have the gear, and then what happens when that gear is outdated? Never use gear as an argument, except for maybe forseeable upgrades such as Mythical 2.0.Also, I got my Agility up to around 600 aswell as a bunch of +defense, aswell as using the Shield of Rainbow Hues (highest protection shield that I know of that we can use). My avoidance sat at a weak 30%. If anyone has any suggestions on how to get this higher, except via adornments I know of those.
There's infusions/reductions (the expensive 30 minute food) that gives uncontested parry/dodge percentages, and those are pretty standard for clerics to use. Other things are like the wrist with parry that's a heart reward from the Sisters in Hate, or even the mastercrafted necklace with riposte on it. One thing you may not know is that +defense doesn't matter for shield ally - it just checks for avoidance checks from shield block, dodge, parry, riposte, or deflect for brawlers. Before +shield block was nerfed, a lot of clerics used to run the mastercrafted armor with small bits of shield block on em too, but not much point to doing that anymore.
I think gear is a legitimate argument, because all game balance changes. I don't think it's necessarily invalid to argue how things are balanced now, even when things change radically next expansion. I would agree that it's not fair to generalize things like saying because class X is better than class Y at the avatar-geared/full-tso-set gear level that it necessarily follows that they are at the VP-level or heroic gear level, but it doesn't change imbalances from existing even if they're only for a year or two before the gear is made obsolescent.
As far as interrupts go, a few examples off the top of my head - a curse from trakanon he puts on random people, hateful intercession on Byzola, trying to heal groups on adds from Zarrakon is prevented by interrupts, mandate on Anashti, and most avatars.
In my opinion Warden, Templar, and Defiler can all be considered "pure" healers. Druids seem to get smacked around a lot in this thread but I don't see the issue from a group or raid standpoint. Their HoT's are extremely fast casting compared to Shamans and Clerics wards, reactives, and direct heals, and the Druids can stack those HoT's to the point of insanity. I think that the fast casting ability makes up for their lesser ability to completely prevent the damage. Except, as someone mentioned, in a situation where the tank may be one-shotted by a powerful mob.
I'm certainly not saying Wardens are the best healers, but in my opinion it's pretty balanced among Wardens, Defilers, and Templars.
Ralniv@Venekor wrote:
The problem is that the tank isn't the one you're worried about on harder stuff - with the exception of really a handful of fights that have curses designed specifically to kill the tank, your MT should never be in danger until the team that supports him or her (healers, avoidance lend, debuffers) are all dead or otherwise neutralized (banished, stifles, whatever). Which means what you're really worried about is everyone else dying - and the rest of the raid being one-shotted on a lot of newer and tougher encounters is a very real concern, which druids aren't nearly as well designed to handle.
Alaocia@Guk wrote:
Druids contrary to most peoples perception actually have awesome healing power, but it does not "always" show up on a raid parse since wards/reacts count first.
I have seen this and heard this alot, mostly from druids..... And while i understand everyones "concept" it really is just the fact that druid heals didnt heal for as much...
Say someone takes a 1,000 point attack... There is a ward up for 500 of that (counts for 500 on the mystics parse) and also a reactive from templar for 300 (300 for the cleric)...
500 of that attack is absorbed by the Ward... the other 500 left over instantly triggers the 300 reactive... so that leaves a total of 200 that is left to even heal.. so say the druid popped their heal over time that ticked for 300 each tick right before the attack... the 500 ward, followed by the 300 reactive have chewed up all but 200... so that initial heal from the druid or the tick... only 200 of it "heals" the tank...
So the initial 500 blast heal and the rest of the 3 ticks of 300 (including 100 from the first tick) from the druid are just wasted on 100 percent HP... so it really actually didnt do anything, thus didnt show up on parse...
So there is no "my heal didnt show up" its that your heal didnt do the healing.
Reactives are instant heal, wards are damage prevents... so the druid heals are just healing what those 2 didnt cover... so to say "its just reading it last" is true and false... yes its reading it last in the fact that it was the last thing to heal... if there was nothing left to heal after the ward and the reactive, then there is nothing to read... so its not "last" its just not there at all..
Its the nature of the the types of heals...
There is no error in the amount of healing that ACT reads, its just the fact the other classes healed it BEFORE the druids did.
Now if reactives and wards arent up initially, that 500 initial heal plus the ticks of 300 are going to show up on the druids parse as the full 1k heal, as even if the wards and the reactives go up after that hit, 0 of them will show up on the heal parse, as the tank isnt taking any more damage (were assuming just a 1k hit and nothing else)
That being said, if shamans and clerics are spaming their wards and reactives then the druids heals have a very low likelyhood of showing up on the parse.. not becase the parse is inaccurate, just because of the above reasons...
Thus leading druids to say "Well ACT reads our heals last so its not accurate" which is false
The problem Druids face has nothing to do with the heal parse.
And they, in fact, are capable of healing a lot more AE damage than Clerics and Shaman, but in 100% of raid encounters I can think of, the AE damage either 1-shots people who are not buffed/warded, can be largely prevented with quick cures, and/or is easily healed by a Shaman/Cleric.
There's literally no need at all for the AE healing Druids bring. It's all about control effects, cures, and preventing 1-shots (and double-taps). When you look at the strengths and weaknesses of each non-Druid healer, you can kinda see how they are balanced for those three critical tasks, and like I wrote earlier in the thread, that balance shows in the rosters of high-end guilds. On the other hand, the only tool Druids have to help with any of those three things is Shell, which has too severe of penalty (being unable to heal with it up) and is on too long of recast to even come close to balancing with the abilities Shaman/Clerics get.
Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:
There's literally no need at all for the AE healing Druids bring.
/cough Chokers on for everyone!!!!!!!!!!! /cough
Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:There's literally no need at all for the AE healing Druids bring. /cough Chokers on for everyone!!!!!!!!!!! /cough
I assume you're joking, but choker damage is pretty meaningless. My entire group can be using chokers on Palace trash, and just the heal procs from the Zarrakon wrist alone completely heal it...never even have to cast a heal.
Reliance on proc items leads to sloppiness if something happens to the item.
Sprinng@Nagafen wrote:Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:There's literally no need at all for the AE healing Druids bring. /cough Chokers on for everyone!!!!!!!!!!! /cough I assume you're joking, but choker damage is pretty meaningless. My entire group can be using chokers on Palace trash, and just the heal procs from the Zarrakon wrist alone completely heal it...never even have to cast a heal.
I assume your joking in assuming that every healer in the entire game that raids has the Zarrakon wrists...
And dont bet on that after the proc nerf.....
I assume your joking in assuming that every healer in the entire game that raids has the Zarrakon wrists...And dont bet on that after the proc nerf.....
The proc changes won't have much effect on the Zarrakon wrist proc since the people who use that item don't have much heal crit or base heal amount. It's a scout/fighter item ( \aITEM 2014317121 -1144399735:Bangle of the Blood Symphony\/a ).
I know not every guild has many of those, but my point was simply that choker damage isn't very significant. When you have RoK raid instance-geared Shaman/Clerics capable of AE healing 6K+ HPS, the few hundred DPS groupwide from the choker doesn't matter much.
(I actually thought you were joking, by the way...guess not, heh. Sorry if I offended you.)
Actually, even though choker damage is 'focus', all focus damage has an underlying type which matters for what damage-specific wards cover against it. In this case, choker damage is focus-but-magic, which means that shield of faith from templars, the ward to arcane tempo that troubadors can attach, and the anti-magic ward that defilers attach to their mitigation buff all absorb it. With arcane tempo up and in my group (I play a defiler), I never really notice chokers at all unless there's other magic-based damage people are taking.
People really get misled by thinking that just because something is focus that means it doesn't have a damage type. You may not be able to mitigate it, but it still can matter for wards.
Oakum wrote:
The best thing a warden has going for us is the power proc from the fabled version of our epic which is raised some by our myth versions.That is about to be nerfed since the power regen does crit and give back extra power and it will no longer crit with the upcoming proc nerf. How bad will that be? We probably wont be able to tell until it goes live.
The best thing a warden has going for us is the power proc from the fabled version of our epic which is raised some by our myth versions.
That is about to be nerfed since the power regen does crit and give back extra power and it will no longer crit with the upcoming proc nerf. How bad will that be? We probably wont be able to tell until it goes live.
I predict this will punish those wardens who do not have a very high heal crit to make up for the procs not critting anymore.
Fabled Epic Warden with no raid gear = most likely not infinite power. pretty much hit and miss. some fights power will have infinite power, some the warden will run out, others just a super slow drain.
Mythical Epic Warden with fabled gear = every heal is pretty much a crit. basically the RNG just has to give you that 50% chance you need.
Vanand@Nagafen wrote:
Oakum wrote:The best thing a warden has going for us is the power proc from the fabled version of our epic which is raised some by our myth versions.That is about to be nerfed since the power regen does crit and give back extra power and it will no longer crit with the upcoming proc nerf. How bad will that be? We probably wont be able to tell until it goes live.I predict this will punish those wardens who do not have a very high heal crit to make up for the procs not critting anymore.Fabled Epic Warden with no raid gear = most likely not infinite power. pretty much hit and miss. some fights power will have infinite power, some the warden will run out, others just a super slow drain.Mythical Epic Warden with fabled gear = every heal is pretty much a crit. basically the RNG just has to give you that 50% chance you need.
I agree, How bad actually we will wait to see like I said. The newer lvl 80's/non raid geared with lower heal crit wardens will of course take the brunt of the nerf.
Its okay, every once in a while there have been periods where you see "LF for solo healer for blank instance, cleric or shaman only please" since LU-13. Why should it change now, lol.
Furys and wardens, except for special fights, do have the worst buffs for groups and tanks though. It wouldnt be such a bad thing if we were like chanters that could dps really high when not using their utility but we cant.
Maybe SoE just loves chanters more then druids. lol. I havent looked at Fury parses compared to chanters parses to see if they are close or not. Even if wardens are no where near close fury's might be so I am putting a disclaimer in there, lol.
Oh, yeah, the Warden's myth (who can melee spec and actually use it for dps) is a crappy dps weapon compared to either the Hammer of Hard Knocks from WoE or the one from the HQ and most warden "DPS" gear does not have wis/heal crit on it so if doing the secondary side of the druid class the warden gets no benefit from the EPIC at all.
I still say wardens should be allowed to duel weild through aa's if nothing else. Then a warden might actually be able to use it for proccing power while dpsing where the occasional backup heal is needed when the wards and reactives get blown away or an add gets on the group or raid and healing is suddenly required.
