Before you panic, by "throwback" I don't mean "classic". I'm not suggesting a server without expansions, content, or most features. It boils down to two XP-related mechanics that were more prominent in EQ's past:

Much Flatter XP Curve:  you'd actually have a chance to soak in low-level content without suffering whiplash from all the dings. You won't be forced to rely on all-or-nothing gimmicks like disabling combat XP; you'll see and feel progress without outgrowing your gear during a single dungeon crawl.

Group XP Bonus:  the server-, potion-, and vitality-based XP bonuses are disabled, but for every person added to your group, XP is magnified exponentially.

Tangent: I obviously haven't seen the code, but assuming it's structured in any sort of coherent manner, the impact of implementing this doesn't strike me as catastrophic. Assuming there's a central method and algorithm which processes each entity affecting experience gain, it seems feasible that such an algorithm could be extended to factor in these items.

In anticipation of some responses:

* I'm not requesting or suggesting changes to current servers. I understand MMOs must accommodate multiple audiences, with special emphasis given to "casual" gamers. I get it, I accept it, I'm not trying to fight it.

* I know some would declare this as cost-prohibitive, that it wouldn't justify new hardware. In some ways I agree, so I think a great time to try it would be right after a server merge!

* If you think nobody would play on such a server, you may be right -- but you also may be wrong. We can't point to a situation where it's a proven failure because it doesn't exist. Granted, the popular assumption is that everybody wants to race through levels, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

* In my opinion there's nothing wrong with solo/casual play. However, it's also my opinion that with both EQ1 and EQ2, only one segment of players has been forced to make concessions over and over again: the group that doesn't want prior content to get easier/faster with each new expansion. A server with the adjustments listed above might just give those people a very happy home.

skirrge wrote:

Tangent: I obviously haven't seen the code, but assuming it's structured in any sort of coherent manner, the impact of implementing this doesn't strike me as catastrophic. Assuming there's a central method and algorithm which processes each entity affecting experience gain, it seems feasible that such an algorithm could be extended to factor in these items.

 Actually i'd assume that, like many modern MMO's, experience to level and group bonus per size are not coded at all, but are stored in tables on the server along with experience modifier per level of difference between player level and content level or experience given for a specific mob when killed by a player of equal level. These metrics are too susceptible to change to require recoding with every tweak. As such modifying them is more a question of impact than one of coding difficulty, and it should be possible to populate the table of one server differently from otehr servers.

Sounds like you are after a server that effectively functions in "hard mode". A server that, like EQ1 originally did, effectively is solo unfriendly and requires grouping to advance. It's an interesting concept, but i am not sure how much of the existing playerbase is still interested in actually putting forth effort in replaying content they have seen before, let alone want to go through the trouble of arranging for a group to be available every time they play. Still, it might work. Instead of throwback server i would give it a name that reflects the emphasis you seem to hope such a server will have on group play: Heroic server. Such a server could also be adjusted to spawn more heroic encounters (+3 mobs and linked +2 encounters) and fewer solo encounters.

Hmmm, you're right, "heroic" is a much better term for the server I'm describing. I knew "throwback" wasn't the right choice of words, but I was drawing a blank coming up with something EQ2 players would recognize.

As for "hard mode", well, I'm careful not to call it that because of previous battles we've seen over semantics. Many would argue there's nothing more difficult with this type of server (they'd likely call it more tedious). Rather than focusing on difficulty, I'm putting the focus on lower-level content and grouping.

skirrge wrote:

Hmmm, you're right, "heroic" is a much better term for the server I'm describing. I knew "throwback" wasn't the right choice of words, but I was drawing a blank coming up with something EQ2 players would recognize.

As for "hard mode", well, I'm careful not to call it that because of previous battles we've seen over semantics. Many would argue there's nothing more difficult with this type of server (they'd likely call it more tedious). Rather than focusing on difficulty, I'm putting the focus on lower-level content and grouping.

 

The real problem with EQ2, and frankly almost every other MMO on the market today is the worn out concept of "leveling".  Instead of putting the focus on the content, players are pushed into an artificial treadmill to keep them playing.

Strangely, SOE does in fact have a MMO currently in their stable which does not have a nasty "leveling" curve.  Planetside.  Unfortunately, Planetside suffered at release from a producer who didn't "get" the MMO space.  He was a FPS producer, and honestly not a great one.  He did however manage to bring to market one of the only MMOFPS games in the world, and it has survived for quite a long time.

I'm eagerly awaiting the first MMO which finally breaks away from the old "Dungeons and Dragons" leveling treadmill and focuses instead on the content.

Banditman wrote:

skirrge wrote:

Hmmm, you're right, "heroic" is a much better term for the server I'm describing. I knew "throwback" wasn't the right choice of words, but I was drawing a blank coming up with something EQ2 players would recognize.

As for "hard mode", well, I'm careful not to call it that because of previous battles we've seen over semantics. Many would argue there's nothing more difficult with this type of server (they'd likely call it more tedious). Rather than focusing on difficulty, I'm putting the focus on lower-level content and grouping.

 

The real problem with EQ2, and frankly almost every other MMO on the market today is the worn out concept of "leveling".  Instead of putting the focus on the content, players are pushed into an artificial treadmill to keep them playing.

Strangely, SOE does in fact have a MMO currently in their stable which does not have a nasty "leveling" curve.  Planetside.  Unfortunately, Planetside suffered at release from a producer who didn't "get" the MMO space.  He was a FPS producer, and honestly not a great one.  He did however manage to bring to market one of the only MMOFPS games in the world, and it has survived for quite a long time.

I'm eagerly awaiting the first MMO which finally breaks away from the old "Dungeons and Dragons" leveling treadmill and focuses instead on the content.

Actually up until post level 70 I found that EQ2 had enough fun and interesting content that I would just do stuff for fun and watch myself level without even realizing i was close. That I liked, the faster exp makes me focus on the content more honestly instead of my exp bar. To each their own though.

Ragecaller wrote:

skirrge wrote:

Tangent: I obviously haven't seen the code, but assuming it's structured in any sort of coherent manner, the impact of implementing this doesn't strike me as catastrophic. Assuming there's a central method and algorithm which processes each entity affecting experience gain, it seems feasible that such an algorithm could be extended to factor in these items.

 Actually i'd assume that, like many modern MMO's, experience to level and group bonus per size are not coded at all, but are stored in tables on the server along with experience modifier per level of difference between player level and content level or experience given for a specific mob when killed by a player of equal level. These metrics are too susceptible to change to require recoding with every tweak. As such modifying them is more a question of impact than one of coding difficulty, and it should be possible to populate the table of one server differently from otehr servers.

Sounds like you are after a server that effectively functions in "hard mode". A server that, like EQ1 originally did, effectively is solo unfriendly and requires grouping to advance. It's an interesting concept, but i am not sure how much of the existing playerbase is still interested in actually putting forth effort in replaying content they have seen before, let alone want to go through the trouble of arranging for a group to be available every time they play. Still, it might work. Instead of throwback server i would give it a name that reflects the emphasis you seem to hope such a server will have on group play: Heroic server. Such a server could also be adjusted to spawn more heroic encounters (+3 mobs and linked +2 encounters) and fewer solo encounters.

 

This isn't hard mode.  In fact, except for the part about experience increasing exponentially in groups, it isn't even pushing grouping over soloing.  Remove that and it's grouping agnostic.

EQ2 at launch was solo infriendly because most mobs you found past the newbie areas were heroics.  If you were careful you could pick out the soloable mobs from the heroics, but you weren't going to accomplish much that way except get a little experience.  Not really worth the effort (Believe me I tried when everyone in my guild quit.  Finally gave up and cancelled.) Some zones were worse then others.

Last year I returned and leveled a toon 1-80 pretty much as described.  It was before the big boost to experience and I did it without potions etc.  although it was with the insane boosts in TD which made the first 20 levels far faster and easier then they were at launch.  I had to solo almost everything because there weren't many people my level.

A server like that would be nice if there's a nice spread of players at all levels and there isn't a big push to do things at 80 and only 80.   There's some really good content at the lower levels which just about nobody sees anymore. 

Sounds like a fun server to me. I recently rolled a brigand and am level locked at 24 right now and going through a ton of the content at that range. There is just so much to do and see and I like the lower level zone designs much more than most of the upper zone stuff.

Liral wrote:

Sounds like a fun server to me. I recently rolled a brigand and am level locked at 24 right now and going through a ton of the content at that range. There is just so much to do and see and I like the lower level zone designs much more than most of the upper zone stuff.

Agree 100%. Yesterday I rolled a new toon on Kithicor and locked my level at 24. It's the first time I've locked and I like it for the most part, but again it's really unfortunate that I have to choose between zero and lightning-fast XP.

I really do believe that if the server were branded properly (I'm really liking the sound of "Heroic" server), and people knew the XP situation going in, it could be a popular place for those who enjoy all levels of content.

only if it was a ffa pvp server, and only if it went to level 70.

They do this so that new players can catch up with old players.  Out of the 6 RL friend sI have tried to get to come play EQ2 in the recent months all of them have quit and one of the MAIN reasons they quit was cause this game was so "overwhelming" and they were "too far behind" to catch up.  New players want to get in game and be able to catch up to experience what everyone else is, not always feel like they are lagging behind.

Sure EXP is fast, but once ya hit 80 there is a mountain of things to do that will keep you occupied for a good long while and you are still progressing your character.

I am an old school MMO'er and I understand the nostalgia of long grinds and slow leveling, but in this day and age and with the current gamer giving them quicker, faster rewards is the only way to keep them interested and thusly keep them paying.

Trevalon wrote:

They do this so that new players can catch up with old players.  Out of the 6 RL friend sI have tried to get to come play EQ2 in the recent months all of them have quit and one of the MAIN reasons they quit was cause this game was so "overwhelming" and they were "too far behind" to catch up.  New players want to get in game and be able to catch up to experience what everyone else is, not always feel like they are lagging behind.

Sure EXP is fast, but once ya hit 80 there is a mountain of things to do that will keep you occupied for a good long while and you are still progressing your character.

 

I am an old school MMO'er and I understand the nostalgia of long grinds and slow leveling, but in this day and age and with the current gamer giving them quicker, faster rewards is the only way to keep them interested and thusly keep them paying.

I disagree with this opinion. Not that your wrong but I see it from a different aspect.

One of the reasons they are back-peddling now with simpler spell names and handing out masters (and the upcoming nerf to procs) is because they tried to give people quicker faster rewards without thinking of the consequences of doing so beforehand (or just flat out ignoring what they knew would happen altogether).

Just as you have had friends quit because of the catchup, I have seen many leave from the game being sickingly easy and watered down. Basically just a clone of other games. There is not much anymore that separates this game from others and that is one thing (minus the lousy launch) this game used to have above others.

 There were some fun times had before the changes to turn this game into soloquest, there are still some fun times, only now with the mad rush to get everyone to 80 the journey is a very short trip through blahhsville considering the quality of the items crafted and AA's vs mobs that were never tuned for us being as powerful as we became.

IMO the trip to lvl 80 is now an unbalanced cluster of poorly implemented ideas and changes that are overwhelming the small staff they have left. One thing I can say I really like about EQ2 is that it does give more customizable features and choices than ANY game on the market I have played.

 I would welcome a server that offered the challenges the game presented when I started playing. Best of all it wouldn't change the game for those who happen to like what the game is now.

I would like such a server. But most people (especially new players) want to rush to 80, join a raiding guild auto-follow them, get mythical and quit.

For me te semi hard code server should allow anyone to solo till 80, but grouping will be made attractive (xp bonus). Xp curves won't solve everything, legendary loot should also be adjusted to be even or better than mastercrafted.

I have a level locked toon, but i cannot find group, which mean i solo heroic content. So with the current gear and AA heroic content is close to be soloable. A new server would need harder heroic monsters.

So ...

Yes

--  tune up heroic content in order to force people to really play correctly , with the current gear and AAs doing red heroic content is the only way you get challenge in a full group.

-- Make grouping attractive (quest, items, combat xp boost) ...

-- Tune the quest chains so that you can make group steps in various order, nothing is more frustrating than being unable to share quest, or to have only some people making progress on a quest chain. Most sequencial chain should be replaced by parralels steps -- (even if the scenario may suffer a bit from it ).

But keep a viable solo path (especially offer solo city task at any level).