Something I'm afraid of...

Digito

Stats becoming TOO important, what I mean... something I love about Matrix Online is that you can rather easily change what your char does, however I'm worried that now you'll need to know all the little details about the stats in advance and follow a strict stat "build", or you'll either be stuck doing one thing forever, or simply end up inferior to other players with no chance of closing that gap, ALA Diablo 2.

Cognoscente

They might start selling Attribute Hacks for 50M or so. A lot of people have asked for this and they might bend to their desire. But having specialists instead of being good in everything is something everyone wanted. I'm glad they made the system the way they did. It's just taking a bit of time for me to get adjusted to it's difference... and of course all the lil bugs I've found.

Jiinx

Cognoscente wrote:
They might start selling Attribute Hacks for 50M or so. A lot of people have asked for this and they might bend to their desire. But having specialists instead of being good in everything is something everyone wanted. I'm glad they made the system the way they did. It's just taking a bit of time for me to get adjusted to it's difference... and of course all the lil bugs I've found.

Or maybe a Pandora's box 4 type mission (the box i mean) in order to get a rehack. Although 50mil is a good idea too. SMILEY

Regards

**Mortalitor**

Stats are extremely important. One Stat setup will do extremely well for one or maybe a few loadouts, but you wont have any chance with the other trees. Stat rehacks being sold is a pretty nice idea but 50M is a little harsh sounding, not saying it wouldnt still be worth it. I'd prefer maybe 30M. How about it?

GrimteSv

That is one of the things that has me concerned. If weare all going to be specialised into classes then what's the point of being able to switch out classes? Will there be anything to stop "Charachter regret" anymore?

But then again since we already have a system that does that, is this anything but the next logical step?

I just don't know, i love specialising in martial arts and nothing else since nothing compares to it, for me. Even if it doesn't affect me that much since focus affects melee and ranged(ballistic) stats, i still feel like there's something i've lost, like there's something here that i never paid any attention to that has gone amiss.

I also don't like the thought of trying to give my points evenly to all stats only to find that anyone who specialises in one will easily wipe the floor with me, making me equally inferior to all other builds.

It's just a thought, though.. i still have had alot of fun on Qa (well.. before abilties went haywire)

{SoG}Esky

http://mxoboards.station.sony.com/matrix/board/message?board.id=dev_roundtable&message.id=1851&query.id=0#M1851

Personally, I like the idea of being bound to a class, and sucking almost everything else. One thing that was intended to be cool with this game was the ability to change what you do. But really, what other MMO allows that? None I've seen...and although it was a great attempt to do something different and make this game stand out...I think in the end, it hurt the game much more than it helped.

Of course, if you're into the ability to switch your stats, the link above is something that has worked well for another MMO. We'll see I guess...

**Yasamuu**

Digito wrote:
Stats becoming TOO important, what I mean... something I love about Matrix Online is that you can rather easily change what your char does, however I'm worried that now you'll need to know all the little details about the stats in advance and follow a strict stat "build", or you'll either be stuck doing one thing forever, or simply end up inferior to other players with no chance of closing that gap, ALA Diablo 2.

without a doubt this is one of the best parts of MxO which it has the advantage of over other mmo's the fact we can change our builds, we arent just stuck as a paladin like on WoW. even if we are not particularly great at other builds because of our stat points its still good to be able to change over and experience mixing builds

Jiinx

{SoG}Esky wrote:
http://mxoboards.station.sony.com/matrix/board/message?board.id=dev_roundtable&message.id=1851&query.id=0#M1851

Personally, I like the idea of being bound to a class, and sucking almost everything else. One thing that was intended to be cool with this game was the ability to change what you do. But really, what other MMO allows that? None I've seen...and although it was a great attempt to do something different and make this game stand out...I think in the end, it hurt the game much more than it helped.

Of course, if you're into the ability to switch your stats, the link above is something that has worked well for another MMO. We'll see I guess...

I'm not too keen on being locked into one class, simply because i also like to code, my main thing is as an MA, but i occasionally use Gunman and Hacker just for some variation.

The main problem I see, judging by how the QA server is at the moment. I am failing alot with my coding and the bonus from attributes will help alot when they are working. This might give the game a bit of a messed up economy like in other games such as SWG, and the vast majority of coder's (namely the apparel and consumable part) will be limited to a few people trying to control the server's economy. Imagine paying $50mil info for some balistic defence clothing. $20 mil for anti-biotics etc etc.

Economy's in most MMO's end up turning into a monopoly, frustrating no only your average player but the Developer's as well.

Of course though this is my opinion based on my experience, it might not go that way.

Regards

Disseminated · 01/22/2006 19:56:36

I do think it would be very lame to get locked into one "class" like other MMO's. For one thing, having options is better than not. For another, it's not very 'matrixy' now is it? We should be able to download whatever knowledge will fit in our brain and use it.

But stats need to mean something don't they. Well that's peachy. As long as they don't mean more than the random element tactical element combined, we're all good.

frex:

Example of Bad: Billy spent his stats to make him a good hacker. Now he feels like being MA for a while. He goes against an MA of equal level who has twinked his stats optimally for MA. Billy always loses because you must specialize (ala D2 like someone said)

Example of Good: Billy spent his stats to make him a good hacker. Now he feels like being MA for a while. He goes against an MA of equal level who has twinked his stats optimally for MA. Billy is at a disadvantage and loses more than he wins.

Another Example of Bad: Billy spent his stats to make him a good hacker. Now he feels like being MA for a while. Billy buys and item for x amount of info that lets him respend his stats. THIS IS JUST THE SAME AS NOT HAVING STATS IN THE GAME AT ALL.

So yeah... that's what I'm saying. Make stats matter. Make them permanent. Make it so that a SKILLED and LUCKY player can succeed with any given loadout no matter what his stats.

Message Edited by Moondog548 on 01-22-200609:56 PM

{SoG}Esky

Well, I also like the fact that we can change loadouts, but I think everyone's feeling would be much different if we never were able to experience the free-ness of loadout switching.

Now, since MxO's item system, crafting system, and general lack of anything economic, is the way it is, I think it's pretty much impossible to try to make something that would stimulate the economy, UNLESS, there was stuff that only a certain class could make, hence a dependancy, a demand, and the drive for an economic system. With the ability to create whatever you want, whenever you want, and with little work, MxO can't achieve this.

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Not quite sure how to do it, but there needs to be creation of items, gear, and whatnot to have something of an economy in the game. Look at MxO now. Coders barely code for other players, (especially to make money) aside from maybe lower to mid level players, because everyone (with a little bit of cash) can be their own coder. All the economy has is overpriced items that people would never buy, the sale of whole trees, the sale of construct drops (which are very few and far between) and hideout drops (which aren't all that great). Basically, the item system is very simple, very limited, and even less of a base for an economy. *Problem #1*

If they were to make coders have the possibility of making a vast range of buffed clothing and items, this would simply prolong the inevitable, which is that anyone would be able to make their own stuff in the near future, and as such, losing the dependancy on other players for something. People would just code their own stuff, and again, no economy is involved. *Problem #2*

Coder's can't make anything that is worth anything to anyone, except for abilities. Again, this only works for so long, because once you're a mid-high level character, you can make your own stuff, and there is no need to buy off other people. So even if you run into the occasional player that can't code their own stuff, does not want to take the time to get a set of abilities, level them all in 5 min, and give up a little cash to do it, the coder still has nothing to drive them to make the gear, because charging 20 mil for a DR trench is even more rediculous than simply going to get your own. Again, there is no system to guide players towards a working economy *Problem #3*

WoW's system works quite well, where no matter what class you are, you can train in certain "talents" that are used quite extensively in the player economy. Leatherworking, Mining, Enchanting, Cooking, Fishing, so on and so forth. Now, just because any player can do this does not destroy the dependancy the talents create. These talents take a very long time, a lot of farming (or more importantly, buying from someone else who farmed), rare drops (which you either buy, or find yourself) which are only found in certain areas, instances, or whatnot, and then, along the way, your creations through these talents are actually worth something to someone else who did not choose that talent. They are important because: even though any person could eventually make whatever you are selling, it would cost them a lot of time, a lot of money, and a whole bunch of farming/grinding to get it themselves.

These talents can be unlearned, and you can pick a different one if you like, but it will cost you money, you lose everything you learned from the other talent, and you have to start from scratch with the new talent. Take Herbalism for instance. If you are a level 60, and spent the majority of your time on leatherworking, then decided to go into herbalism, you would have to lose all the rare recipies you learned in leatherworking, all the money it took in the leveling up and materials for it, and then, you have to go all the way back to a very low level area, and start farming the plants that are for the intro to herbalism. The system makes you go to low level areas while you are the max level.
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MxO's current systems (practically every system) work because whatever it is you want to do, it's easily done by yourself. Grouping is only used for friends who grind missions away together, or for PvP. I've never witnessed coding used to drive the economy. The other trees don't create anything. The marketplace only has extremely overpriced items (mostly rediculous items people wouldn't even want, let alone spending millions on them) and female construct drops (which are only possible to get in a short period of time for your character. The constructs are great, and sometimes the drop for each is nice, but it's only possible to get them at that level, and not many want to create another character to go try and get the item again. Now, this seems like a good thing, because it creates demand for a certain item. The problem is: there are only...what...4 items that this really works for? And when you get the item, you say, "Selling Sakura Bandana for 100 mil!" Well, talk about turning the economy off. There NEEDS to be *a LOT* more items that are of value to people, that are not easily gotten, but not impossible to get, pay for, or create yourself.

Other game's worlds are huge. Huge beyond belief. MegaCity could feel much bigger, if we had reasons to go to every corner, alley, and building. But we don't, sadly.

Personally, I don't think MxO does much of a job making you go much of anywhere. There should be something that makes you take many trips to all corners of the city to do certain things. This "you should just go exploring the city to view all of its beauty and ingenious" is fine for RP, but for those that don't RP, they should still be forced to travel the entire city. Maybe once the reflow is finished, they would integrate something like this, but still, all there is is missions driving this, and they are always in the same few buildings, that all look the same inside. Taking missions outside is a big idea to work on to get the city to open up.

Since it's late, and I seem to be losing track of whatever it is I'm trying to say, I'll take a break, and see what other's think about, the game. lol

[CoZ]LostProphet

Wow, good post Esky.

The only thing I've found to code that makes money (on Vector) is Tac Booster 4.0s
I've made a truckload of $info on those so far (maybe about 70 million) and I've only been doing it on and off for the last couple of months.

**Casandre** · 01/23/2006 08:52:26

The economy in this game is well nigh' unfixable.. Just not gonna' be able to adjust loot drops, fix the marketplace, delete NPC venders w/out creating an SWG'esque revolt... IMO.

As to the original post.. I think that because attributes effect so many diff. stats it lends itself to Different loadouts and the whole pt. of the stat cap and the Large Number of influences is to avoid the uber-build... And I've kicked around some of the math with abilities and the curently available enhanced items and I don't see one yet (as soon as they fix the random 15,419 roll).. If it is possible to be Uber-Proxy coder for example.. then why shouldn't you be a gimped Karate Grandmaster... seems silly to be able to have one set of Attribute choices that leads to loadout nirvana... or even a limited set like we have now.. Focus for ranged; percp. for MA etc.... gets incredibly boring.

The Dev's seem to have gone out of their way to explain that the uber-build is, if they do their job correctly (and I'm afraid nobody's ever made any money on that bet), a thing of the past. And I for one am Glad for it.... the experimentation should re-invigorate the community... Anyway the way it looks so far is that no choice will gimp you and no choice is really Much better.. it is a success to this point in that it's a matter of play stylefor offense and guessing what the majority of your opponents will be loading for defense. The only people who will be unhappy I think are the people who wanna be NEO in a world of blue pills. Won't miss too many of them.

**edit** oh hey and as a challenge someone try and spend your 49 points on attributes and give me a gimped char... it's impossible to avoid helping out your char. in all areas.. the way they've divided def. and resist with accuracy and damage... If someone can gimp a char. I'd honestly be interested in seeing.. if only to avoid doing it to myself :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by Casandre on 01-23-200608:52 AM

**9mmfu** · 01/23/2006 09:00:42

It is not intended that Stats are weighted more importantly than another other contributing factor for your character.

It is intented that if a player finds a good balance between the factors that effect Combat that they will have a good chance success.

It is natural that with the increased importance of stats that more attention will be paid to the previously, no brainer, selection of where to level up your character's stats.

Good builds are possible from my own testing. But also understand there are still balancing issues with items and abilities that need to be worked out. So if you find a build that seems to be out of whack with other please be sure to let us know so we can look into it.

Digito wrote:
Stats becoming TOO important, what I mean... something I love about Matrix Online is that you can rather easily change what your char does, however I'm worried that now you'll need to know all the little details about the stats in advance and follow a strict stat "build", or you'll either be stuck doing one thing forever, or simply end up inferior to other players with no chance of closing that gap, ALA Diablo 2.

Message Edited by NoRepro on 01-23-200609:00 AM

{SoG}Esky · 01/23/2006 20:17:05

Wow...
I just re-read my post...and I have to apologize for that. Highly unorganized, and more of a rant than anything.

No more late night posting for me =/

Maybe, somehow, I'll get that stuff together so it's actually understandable.

Message Edited by {SoG}Esky on 01-23-200610:17 PM

**Rexxhavukk**

The archive and hideout drops were great for realigning stats. I will miss them how they were.

Re-hacks should be 10,000 $info for at least 30 days then $100,000