GamiSB wrote:

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg.

The truce was never meant to make both sides equal. 

 

Illyria

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce. There continueal attacks on Zion REP's and bluepills that wanted the red pill are proof. Yet that blantent violations just get pushed under the rug when they are uncoverd. Now exactly how is that a fair deal and going to bring about peace? You preach about what happend when man saw themselves as suprior beings to the Machines and how it was wrong and evil, so how is the Machine doing the exact same thing to us humans and diffrent?

Peace will only come between Zion and 01 when each sees the other has its equal.

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

There is a difference between the 1% that are awakening on their own and those who are not ready to be awakened, those who are forcibly awakened, and those who are deliberately shown things that cause them to awaken.  Extracting anyone other than the 1% that were awakening on their own was not permitted by the truce.  But because you can't tell Zion anything without them stubbornly doing the exact opposite (for example, "don't awaken people who aren't ready to be awakened", or "give the Machines the stolen cheat codes back", or "don't use the stolen cheat codes, they're dangerous" ), the Cypherite organization was formed in secret. 

Illyria

EDIT:  The Machines don't look at Zion as an equal because Zion is no match for them militarily, the Machines' population and resources far outweigh Zion's, and Zion was created by the Machines as part of the cycle of the One and the Matrix. 

And when did the Machines attack Zion REP points or bluepills before the truce ended? 

Bluepills killed by Cypherites under the control of Machines  = Bluepills killed by Machines.

The truce was the result of bureaucratic negotiations after Neo's sacrifice for Peace. It was flawed because it was made grudgingly and callously.

The Machines have no desire to co-exist with humans. Therefore, we will continue to fight these Machines until they realize what humans have, through centuries of conflict and agression, long understood: there is no way to 'win' a war. Both sides lose.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

 

Illyria

Bluepills killed by Cypherites under the control of Machines  = Bluepills killed by Machines.

The truce was the result of bureaucratic negotiations after Neo's sacrifice for Peace. It was flawed because it was made grudgingly and callously.

The Machines have no desire to co-exist with humans. Therefore, we will continue to fight these Machines until they realize what humans have, through centuries of conflict and agression, long understood: there is no way to 'win' a war. Both sides lose.

 

So you continue to fight against the machines to prove that continued fighting results in nothing but losses for both sides?  Sounds like your biting off your face to spite your nose, imo.

Also, PLEASE keep in mind that the Machines do not have full control over the Cypherites despite whatever you all may believe in you biased and loathing for them.  They are human and prone to doing what they want from time to time.  As much as the Machines would like to control them, they can't. 

Why do they continue to employ their services?  Beats me.

Negotiations? Even if Zion took the step and dearmed themselves, they would not be able to live happily ever after. They'd still have a million Sentinels in their back waiting to leash out at them at every waking moment. This is what neither you, nor the Machines can comprehend. While both sides have armament, both sides will fear each other. If one side lay's down it's weapons, they will succumb to the fear of being annihilated. This fear is what led the New Zion, this fear, although a completely logical consequence even the Machines should understand or at least should have known about, is what leads to the breaking of the truce.

The Machines are ruled by logic. It's nothing else than ... a regime of terror.

-Dedatorus

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Negotiations? Even if Zion took the step and dearmed themselves, they would not be able to live happily ever after. They'd still have a million Sentinels in their back waiting to leash out at them at every waking moment. This is what neither you, nor the Machines can comprehend. While both sides have armament, both sides will fear each other. If one side lay's down it's weapons, they will succumb to the fear of being annihilated. This fear is what led the New Zion, this fear, although a completely logical consequence even the Machines should understand or at least should have known about, is what leads to the breaking of the truce.

The Machines are ruled by logic. It's nothing else than ... a regime of terror.

-Dedatorus

We won't know what happens unless you try.  Will we?  Someone has to take the first step after Neo's.

Zion did, and the Machines didn't like it.

Roukan wrote:

Zion did, and the Machines didn't like it.

They spent the last 2 years investing their resources in creating a new secret base.  That's not exactly what I meant. 

GamiSB wrote:

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

There is a difference between the 1% that are awakening on their own and those who are not ready to be awakened, those who are forcibly awakened, and those who are deliberately shown things that cause them to awaken.  Extracting anyone other than the 1% that were awakening on their own was not permitted by the truce.  But because you can't tell Zion anything without them stubbornly doing the exact opposite (for example, "don't awaken people who aren't ready to be awakened", or "give the Machines the stolen cheat codes back", or "don't use the stolen cheat codes, they're dangerous" ), the Cypherite organization was formed in secret. 

Illyria

EDIT:  The Machines don't look at Zion as an equal because Zion is no match for them militarily, the Machines' population and resources far outweigh Zion's, and Zion was created by the Machines as part of the cycle of the One and the Matrix. 

And when did the Machines attack Zion REP points or bluepills before the truce ended? 

The Cypherite organization was on created long before the Cheat Codes were even unvealed so you can hardly say that Zion's unwillingness to give them back (which I'll remind you was so that they could eliminate the merv which was also the Machines prime target at the time) was a reason for there creations. I'm not foolish enough to think that there weren't any over zealous members of Zion that wanted to free everyone and if they were the targets for the Machines then that is understandable and is allowed by the terms of the truce. However those were not the ones I am speaking about nor are they the majority of the operations the Cypherites were sent to. Go back and review the Cypherite's operations in the Matrix and you find a trail of forceing blue pills to minds that wanted out and attacks on the Zionites sent to free them.

The two cities military might has nothing to do with seeing them as equals nor should it even be a factor if peace is really the objective. America in the 21st century with all its military might and technilogical advancements, did it not sit and work with smaller countries to help them or did it say "no you couldn't hold a candle to us so we wont respect your rights and just take over for you"?

And please dont even try to say that you wouldn't be crying a storm if Zion had ever attacked a Machine building or base to hinder a Machine operation. EJPs are nice but because we have them means we could kill anyone we wanted to? It's like shooting someone wearing a bullet proof vest and expecting not to get shot back.

Neo's first goal was to destroy the machines, then he wanted to save humanity. I believe Zion did the right thing. If they bent over for the Machines at every whim then it'd be just like we were bluepills again. Under THEIR control. They gave us a truce, then broke it straight off the bat and expected Zion to be nice like fluffy bunnies.

That's where we differ, Roukan.  I believe that Neo evolved from the generic "machines are bad, destroy kthx" to realizing that the machines were much more than what everyone presumed they were.  Remember Rama-kandra and what he taught Neo?  In the end, to quote Morpheus, "he saved them all".

Furthermore, the rest of your statement is heavily flawed, imo.  First of all, Zion exists as a measure of control.  It always has.  Secondly, paranoia broke the truce, which is both sides fault.  Only a biased, simpleton would try pointing the finger at just one side.  Both sides messed, so deal it.  ACCEPT it.

Paranoia by Zion led to a new city.  Paranoia by Machines led to the belief that New Zion is hostile. 

Roukan wrote:

Neo's first goal was to destroy the machines, then he wanted to save humanity. I believe Zion did the right thing. If they bent over for the Machines at every whim then it'd be just like we were bluepills again. Under THEIR control. They gave us a truce, then broke it straight off the bat and expected Zion to be nice like fluffy bunnies.

That's where we differ, Roukan.  I believe that Neo evolved from the generic "machines are bad, destroy kthx" to realizing that the machines were much more than what everyone presumed they were.  Remember Rama-kandra and what he taught Neo?  In the end, to quote Morpheus, "he saved them all".

Furthermore, the rest of your statement is heavily flawed, imo.  First of all, Zion exists as a measure of control.  It always has.  Secondly, paranoia broke the truce, which is both sides fault.  Only a biased, simpleton would try pointing the finger at just one side.  Both sides messed, so deal it.  ACCEPT it.

Paranoia by Zion led to a new city.  Paranoia by Machines led to the belief that New Zion is hostile. 

Blaming the Machines for everything the Cypherites have done is a bit like blaming parents for everything their adult children have done.  The parents may have been responsible for the creation of that child, but what the child does as an adult is that individual's choice.  And ultimately, most of the destructive acts of the Cypherites have been planned and carried out by humans. 

Perhaps if Zion had stuck to awakening only those who wanted to be awakened, there would have been fewer dissatisfied redpills angry enough at Zion to destroy their ships and pull their crew's jacks while the truce was still in effect.

Illyria 

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.  The archived record shows him saying he wanted peace.  What Neo wanted doesn't matter to me, but shouldn't it matter to EPN?  Twisting his words and his memory to support something your group wants it to support seems a bit heretical. 

PPS: Word of warning here: if EPN's leadership suddenly produces previously-unknown "evidence" that nobody else has ever seen or heard about before, it's probably something they made up themselves.  The same goes for "evidence" sent to them by Neo from beyond the grave.

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Illyria22 wrote:

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Congrats, you're an idiot. It was a war back then.

And it's still a war.  Don't call people names, Roukan.  It doesn't exactly enhance your point.