MetaLogic wrote:
Ok, so this is a big one, Reinsertion. Was Rarebit going to leave it as "Reinsertion was a lie" or was there going to be more to it?
Rarebit quotes about the reinsertion topic. I just copied/pasted. I hope this doesnt create more questions than answers! This was a long topic discussed from april 07 to august 07.
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Have we done a reinsertion as part of the story?
I don't remember that we have, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't forgetting something.
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I'm thinking about having Cryptos ask Gray to reinsert him. Gray's answer would be that there is no such procedure and never has been
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From the Machine point of view, reinsertion isn't efficient; if the subject has already shown a propensity to reject the simulation, they would be just as likely to do so again, even if they could be restored to a mental and physical state compatible with pod insertion, which also strikes me as unlikely, since generally that's begun from birth. Even if they could, it would be a very risky and expensive procedure, not possibly worth the battery power that would be gained from the few individuals concerned. Far easier simply to kill them.
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I anticipate that it will upset some Cypherites, but if I'm going to do it, I might as well do it while things are already in an uproar with the Cryptos thing.
Reinsertion is one of those story things that just doesn't really make good sense, similar to the EPN lovey-dovey hardcore freedom fighter conundrum. As it is there are constant arguments about "well if you want to go back why don't you just do it and save us your complaining." It makes it difficult to play the Cypherites as though they really belong; it's part of what may have been a subliminal planned obsolescence Paul had concerning them, since they were, under his original scheme, a temporary group.
It also makes things difficult from the Machine point of view, because people can complain about "well why don't you reinsert so-and-so," and the Machines generally have no motivation to do such a thing.
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There you go. Everyone can blame it on Rylet. =PPP
The Cypherites are not going away. They are changing, by necessity. What you have seen here is just the beginning. When the Oracle talked about their destiny of making a discovery or however she put it of changing the Matrix, lots of deaths and suffering, etc, she wasn't kidding. The reinsertion thing will be a speedbump compared to that, when it hits...which is actually pretty darn soon. I don't have much time left to get Cryptos' head sorted out and get him back on his feet... So I'm still inclined to do this now and get it over with before stuff really hits the fan. I hope we'll still have a few people left as Cyphs somewhere once the dust clears...and I think if we put our heads together we'll still be able to come up with ways to make the Cypherites a fun org to join.
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As far as I know, the Cypherites were always Paul's invention; I don't think the Wachowskis had anything to do with them. And dispelling "reinsertion" as a myth is my idea, not Paul's. Paul and I are discussing it too.
The Machines are going to have their own popularity problem soon enough.
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The reason for debunking reinsertions doesn't really have anything to do with keeping Cryptos around; it's just a good way to bring it up, and it's the context in which it occurred to me. It does have something to do with what I think is part of a necessary reconstruction of the Cypherite organization's purpose and goals. It also has a lot to do with building tensions, and bringing the Machines to a certain point as well, but I can't give you all the details of that just yet.
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How players take story changes are a concern for me. Obviously changing something like this (and, in reference to a slightly earlier post, it's not entirely accurate to say that this is something that was just come up with, as we've never confirmed reinsertion, and it's always been a question in my mind) will have an impact on many of those people who do care about the story. It's a question, I suppose, of potential gain vs alienating the current player base. If you take a story element like reinsertion away, as some people will see it, you'd better have something to put in its place (beyond just perhaps a more logical story, although I realize that's an arguable point). This could mean that 7.3 is a rough time for some people in that they're looking for purpose, but we are bringing major changes in 8.1, so 7.3, with the weather returning to normal, will in some ways be the lull before the storm.
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"Luckily, 99% of the reinsertions were players quiting the game..."
Ouch. 
Yes, differentiating Cypherites from Machines is a questions that has been on my mind since we started coming up on the revelation about Cryptos. Both groups support the System, and want to get rid of dangerous terrorists. When conflict against said terrorists ratchets up, it is unavoidable that the Machines and Cypherites will draw a little closer, even just from appearances, as the contrast against the other side (Zion/EPN) increases.
The trick is to keep some reason for EPN/CYPHs to exist. I do think that having an alternative to the main orgs is useful--it gives players a little more choice on how they want to play their characters. The question is, given that they already have the same broad goals as Zion/Machines, how do you differentiate them?
The primary way so far, aside from the reinsertion angle, has been mostly that EPN/CYPH are more radical than the other groups, and disregard the Truce. Given that the Truce could go away, though, you've got to have something else, too. I think EPN is faced with this problem more severely than the Cypherites, actually, since Zion's own goals and motivations are much less narrowly defined than those of the Machines, and it's more difficult to come up with a sharp contrast against their wider outlook.
One answer to this issue for the Cypherites has been, as you've seen with Veil, to take a more mercenary approach. They will work with the System, but they expect more than a handshake and a pat on the back for their efforts.
The other main one has been that the Cypherites, not guided and restricted by mechanical Machine thinking, are more adept at dealing with things on a human level. One fairly crude manifestation of this has been their greater capability of infiltrating Zion--the spy reports Machines have been receiving come from Cypherites. And, getting back to the mercenary outlook, they have less hesitation about using assassination, infiltration, etc to achieve their ends.
I think also though they can have issues on which they disagree with the Machines. That's one of the things I want to come up with. Veil's sort of keeping the Machines at arm's length is a bit of a stalling tactic in that regard. But the basic difference is that the Cypherite leadership is human (okay, Cryptos might be a little mixed, but he was born human, anyway , whereas the Machine leadership is Machine, and the differences in approach that the two groups take serve as one of our best mechanisms for illustrating the differences and similarities between man and machine, which *will* be one of the very important themes in the storyline.
Hm... It may also be possible that with the sort of self-negating impulse of the Cypherites cut out, their group becomes more interesting to a wider audience. Thoughts on that?
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By the way, this *is* being discussed with Paul, and he has pinged the brothers on it, so we'll see how that goes.
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Nope, haven't heard back yet on whether the Brothers are cool with it
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He messaged then a couple times, but I don't think they got back to him.
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Hard to say. But Paul's job is to make these calls. He was initially concerned about process and blue pills and how it might all work or have worked, but I kept the conversation really simple, without going into mechanics or anything like that. Basically it goes:
Cryptos: This suxors, reinsert meh!
Gray: Say what?
Cryptos: LOL GG.
Well okay not quite like that. But that's about the amount of detail it covers.
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