[8.2.5] We still haven't found Commander Lock - Syntax - 9/24/07

Croesis

What rubbish, Zion was destroyed because of New Zion not despite it. True, I have no idea what's inside New Zion but having fortifications that allow Zion to attempt attacks on the Machines then retreat with little possibility of reprisal, doesn't mean that it was built with only peace in mind. Also Machinists will be needed even if all Zionites were eradicated, the Machines wouldn't waste a valuable resource, we will still be required as our humanity will be able to do things that the Machines can't. We will be able to understand other Humans. I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.

**PS10N** · 09/28/2007 18:19:29

That is so completely delusion and lacking in a single fact to dispute. You should see Seraph about that complete over-writing you seem to be under. The Machines promised Peace and attacked us before the site for New Zion was even found. Liars, all of them and evidently all of you now too.

Croesis

PS10N wrote:

That is so completely delusion and lacking in a single fact to dispute. You should see Seraph about that complete over-writing you seem to be under. The Machines promised Peace and attacked us before the site for New Zion was even found. Liars, all of them and evidently all of you now too.

The exact site may or may not have been found, but the plans were in place according to Niobe. And with regard to your statement about lacking facts; what's good for the goose......

**Illyria22**

PS10N wrote:

If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table. They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory, and the same would have happened if New Zion had never been built

Is that honestly what Zion's leadership is telling its citizens? Then they're either more delusional or more desperate for their citizens' support than I'd thought.

Believe me, no calculations needed to be made. The Machines could have destroyed Zion at any time, from the instant after Neo defeated Smith all the way through the two and a half years leading up to today. But they didn't, not until Zion built a bunker where they could strike at the Machines without fear of reprisal. The Machines weren't planning to destroy Zion before that...if you'll recall, the General and his men chose exile because the Machines *wouldn't* let them destroy Zion.

Illyria

PS: Don't worry Vinia, I've been accused of being overwritten too...even though I did encounter Seraph while he was on his code-exorcism binge and I wasn't attacked! But isn't it funny how some people don't understand how any redpill would choose not to side with Zion? They just don't get what I've said before...that you shouldn't side with humans who are destructive just because they're human.

**PS10N** · 09/28/2007 19:33:27

If "no preparations were needed" why did they build their army from 125,000 Sentinels to 500,000 Sentinels. Threatening to kill people unless they do as you say is not peaceful, and that's exactly what the Machines did from Day 1. Explain to me how a city nearly 7 kilometers under the earth is capable of of striking at a Machine city on the surface over 100 km away. That's just more of your propaganda and lies from your meglomechanical masters. I challenge you to name one thing the Machines have done in the past 650 years that didn't involve deceit and/or murder. I stand by what I said: Zion would have been destroyed in the same hour it was even if New Zion had never been built. It was their plan all along, delayed slightly by the General.

**GoDGiVeR**

Croesus wrote:

I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.

Machines count of genocides to the human population: 7, the 8th time is in the making

7? Yeah, the frist one is the annihilation of the world population and the other 6 are the continued extermination of the previous Zions.

Whatever you say, Machinist, you only lie to yourself in saying we are the only ones who "willing" to commit mass murder. If the Machines commit mass murder it's always "for the greater good". I call BS.

-Dedatorus

**Garu**

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:
I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.
Machines count of genocides to the human population: 7, the 8th time is in the making

7? Yeah, the frist one is the annihilation of the world population and the other 6 are the continued extermination of the previous Zions.

Whatever you say, Machinist, you only lie to yourself in saying we are the only ones who "willing" to commit mass murder. If the Machines commit mass murder it's always "for the greater good". I call BS.

-Dedatorus

Mankind isn't the only one whose willing to commit genocide but we do seem to be the only one bringing it upon ourselves.

**Garu**

PS10N wrote:

If "no preparations were needed" why did they build their army from 125,000 Sentinels to 500,000 Sentinels. Threatening to kill people unless they do as you say is not peaceful, and that's exactly what the Machines did from Day 1. Explain to me how a city nearly 7 kilometers under the earth is capable of of striking at a Machine city on the surface over 100 km away. That's just more of your propaganda and lies from your meglomechanical masters. I challenge you to name one thing the Machines have done in the past 650 years that didn't involve deceit and/or murder. I stand by what I said: Zion would have been destroyed in the same hour it was even if New Zion had never been built. It was their plan all along, delayed slightly by the General.

Stand by it, by all means but proving it may be a difficult task. Paranoia, not withstanding.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

Overwriting Redpills violated the Truce

Debatable.

PS10N wrote:

Funding a secret undercover sub-org to murder people in their sleep violated the Truce

I don't recall the Machines doing that. Oh, yeah, they did create a secret sub-org that was meant to keep the Redpill population stable through elegant speeches and a little trickery, but never murder. The Cypherites went crazy and chose to do that themselves. The Machines disapprove of this.

PS10N wrote:

Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce

Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.

PS10N wrote:

If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table.

Where do you people get this from? Now that's propaganda.

PS10N wrote:

They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory

*Falls off his chair laughing.*

**GoDGiVeR**

Procurator wrote:

PS10N wrote:
Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce

Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.

Eh? New Zion is considered by many Machines and Machinists a threat, like a weapon. But our "weapon" violates the truth? Ah well, being out of point blank range of their army is not what the Machines prefer, it seems. Humans, though, prefer not being put at that. Hence why New Zion was built in the first place.

-Dedatorus

**Crossover**

When I think of Old Zion, I'll think fondly of a place that contained safe harbors for Hovercrafts to call home, housing units and living quarters for free humans both Redpill and old fashion homegrown folks alike. I'll think of hallways filled with music, and the temple where people could gather in celebration and worship peacefully. It was one of the few places left on Earth where it was still warm and if the War had ever really ended it's where the party would have been. It may have been the HQ of Zion command but everyone even Machines knew that it was also home to civilians; women, children, and elderly, the same people that the former APU Corp and half of the infantry died for protecting from Sentinels two plus years earlier. I salute anyone (if any) that might have made a last stand this time around in order for a few more evacuations to get through. We might not have had Neo to bail us out this time but we did have a New city to retreat to. Farewell old Zion.

**GoDGiVeR**

Garu wrote:

Mankind isn't the only one whose willing to commit genocide but we do seem to be the only one bringing it upon ourselves.

The Machines are capable of it. But up to now, they stand united to the greatest part. If there is ever going to be more than 1 Machine "culture" (the Exiles have a chance of evolving into this, maybe they already have), I'm sure the Machines are capable of bringing it upon themselves the same.

The Machines are more human than we give them credit. Well, only where they chose to, of course.

**Sphairo**

Everything is debatable in this thread, I don't see how replying to a point with 'debatable' gives you a +1. >.<

**Procurator**

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Eh? New Zion is considered by many Machines and Machinists a threat, like a weapon. But our "weapon" violates the truth? Ah well, being out of point blank range of their army is not what the Machines prefer, it seems. Humans, though, prefer not being put at that. Hence why New Zion was built in the first place.

That's just it. Apparently (and no, like all of you, I haven't seen the terms of the Truce) Zion wasn't allowed to fortify themselves, wasn't allowed to put themselves in a position where they weren't, uh, accessible to the Machines. I've mentioned this in a previous discussion.

The Architect is an arrogant prat, but I don't think he's lying. If he says Zion broke the Truce, they broke the Truce. That should confirm the potential term I've just mentioned. Naturally this seems terribly unfair (heck, it is unfair - but you already know I think the Machines are being hasty), but Zion must have agreed to it when the Truce was signed. They agreed to it (under pressure possibly, but it doesn't matter), they knew about it, ergo they knew the danger they were placing their citizens under when they constructed New Zion.

Annakonder

Examine what has really changed and any debate is laughable, Zion lived in a city that machines chose not to destroy because they didn't want to, Zion move to a city that for the time being at least cant be destroyed....but as supposedly it was never to be destroyed both the move and the reaction are both entirely irrelevant.... interaction in the matrix means your originating location is irrelevant..... machines destroyed old zion for no purpose whatsoever, save petulance...wasted effort and resource in order to facilitate an action which we understood was not intended. The humans in Zion moved through fear, unreasoned and ill advised it was nothing more than a throwback to its caveman roots.... the machines reacted in a wholly emotional way (apparently this is sooooo much more serious than setting up a deception to contravene the truce via the cypherites - yeah rightyho) and all to no positive end whatsoever..... and the situation that remains is precisely the one that existed before any of this occurred, indeed before Morpheus even found Neo.

Two groups opposed for reasons that don't make sense and that they don't fully understand themselves but boil down to the classic triangle prejudice, ignorance and fear. Forget Neo - his words and actions may have been progress but neither of the parties involved listen or made any attempt to learn - the net result has been regression it was Smith that got it right neither Zion nor Machine deserve to hold the dominion they have, life carbon or Silicon is nothing but a disease that spreads and infects.