If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.
Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce. They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break.
Insanity. Pure, self-destructive insanity.
Illyria
Croesus wrote:Neoteny wrote:Illyria22 wrote:Neoteny wrote:You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings. I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. Illyria Paid, being the key word there.I was speaking of the Cypherites. You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all? Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed? If you think that you are more naive then I thought possible. Yup. And here's why.EPN was outside the Truce. And I defy you to find a link between Zion and EPN prior to the end of the Truce. We disowned them. We made it a point to distance ourselves from them so that the Truce might be upheld. Good lot of use that was, eh? If anything, we just shot ourselves in the foot by doing such at that point.And as far as I remember, the Truce had two conditions:Man and Machine in the Real would not fight. Zion would be permitted to awaken the one percent of bluepills who reject the simulation.Now, recall this, Zion and EPN were distant. Quite distant. The most we'd work together would be that we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information we never really asked for (i.e. the 500,000 Sentinels). The Machines not only helped create the Cypherite organization and lead it through a program for over a year, but continued funding it when said program went defunct.The Machines guided and paid Cypherites to break rule one by having them hijack our crews and kill the personnel onboard. They guided and paid Cypherites to break rule two by having them continue to push the blue pill and obstruct and prevent awakenings.EPN acted on their own to present the choice to that same one percent, while some radicals pushed red pills, or attempted to go beyond that one percent. However, I stress that these are radicals, and we may have heard of such a thing happening once or twice. But again, they were acting on their own, because at that time there was no link between Zion and EPN. And as far as I recall, they never actively hunted Machines in the real in an attempt to terminate them.If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.
Neoteny wrote:Illyria22 wrote:Neoteny wrote:You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings. I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. Illyria Paid, being the key word there.I was speaking of the Cypherites. You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all? Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed? If you think that you are more naive then I thought possible.
Illyria22 wrote:Neoteny wrote:You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings. I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. Illyria Paid, being the key word there.I was speaking of the Cypherites.
Neoteny wrote:You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings. I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. Illyria
You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.
I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted.
Paid, being the key word there.
I was speaking of the Cypherites.
Yup. And here's why.
EPN was outside the Truce. And I defy you to find a link between Zion and EPN prior to the end of the Truce. We disowned them. We made it a point to distance ourselves from them so that the Truce might be upheld. Good lot of use that was, eh? If anything, we just shot ourselves in the foot by doing such at that point.
And as far as I remember, the Truce had two conditions:
Man and Machine in the Real would not fight. Zion would be permitted to awaken the one percent of bluepills who reject the simulation.
Now, recall this, Zion and EPN were distant. Quite distant. The most we'd work together would be that we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information we never really asked for (i.e. the 500,000 Sentinels). The Machines not only helped create the Cypherite organization and lead it through a program for over a year, but continued funding it when said program went defunct.
The Machines guided and paid Cypherites to break rule one by having them hijack our crews and kill the personnel onboard. They guided and paid Cypherites to break rule two by having them continue to push the blue pill and obstruct and prevent awakenings.
EPN acted on their own to present the choice to that same one percent, while some radicals pushed red pills, or attempted to go beyond that one percent. However, I stress that these are radicals, and we may have heard of such a thing happening once or twice. But again, they were acting on their own, because at that time there was no link between Zion and EPN. And as far as I recall, they never actively hunted Machines in the real in an attempt to terminate them.
You evade the first point; You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all?
I was talking about Zion not EPN
You have also answered my second point; Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed? You yourself said 'we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information' so information gained was passed...
So if the truce was undermined by sabotage, murder and spying, then we are all to blame, Zion and the Machines.
Neoteny wrote:If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time. Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce. They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. Insanity. Pure, self-destructive insanity. Illyria
Illyria22 wrote:Neoteny wrote:If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time. Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce. They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. Insanity. Pure, self-destructive insanity. Illyria The Machine knew that trying to make a couple of Zion's captains (Cryptos and Toorima) into puppets to control the population that rejects the Matrix, not to mention sabotaging and committing acts of terrorism against Zion is in direct violation of the truce. The Oracle: What about the others? The Architect: What others? The Oracle: The ones that want out... The Architect: Obviously they will be freed. It willingly performed an act that it *knew* would cause the truce to break. Insanity, I agree. Manipulative, underhanded insanity.
Zion's hands aren't as clean as they'd like everyone to think.
I see, so you are saying that Zion violated the truce because the Machines had? But plans for your 'New Zion' were made before the Machines plans for Cryptos.
The Machine knew that trying to make a couple of Zion's captains (Cryptos and Toorima) into puppets to control the population that rejects the Matrix, not to mention sabotaging and committing acts of terrorism against Zion is in direct violation of the truce. The Oracle: What about the others? The Architect: What others? The Oracle: The ones that want out... The Architect: Obviously they will be freed. It willingly performed an act that it *knew* would cause the truce to break. Insanity, I agree. Manipulative, underhanded insanity.
Cryptos and Toorima were already free from the Matrix; they were not overwritten as bluepills.
If Zion had considered these acts to break the truce, why didn't they say "Machines, you have broken the truce, we are no longer operating under its terms"?
Edit: Regarding the time frame...Niobe admits that New Zion was being planned soon after the truce went into effect, not when she was in Anome's construct. Building started when she was in the construct.
Failure to conform to the dictates of the System is no longer an acceptable option.
