I need to prove that innocent men and women were slaughtered for no reason other than they wanted to be safe from being slaughtered?  Don't think so.

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

How is the Architect malfunctioning? 

Why did Zion keep the cheat codes for themselves and use them, when they knew the codes were stolen and also that the Machines felt they were too dangerous for even their own agents to use?

If the Machines really did send those 500,000 sentinels to Zion to attack them for not allowing access to their mainframe, why did they wait until now to attack?  Why not do it right after Zion said no?

Where are these documents that show the Machines were going to attack Zion whether New Zion had been found or not?

Until these questions can be answered with something other than "because I said so" -- or "because the Zion council said so -- I'm afraid that I, like most rational people, need some kind of evidence before believing these accusations.

Illyria

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion.  However that is probably the only "fact" in your argument.  Everything else is based on presumptions and biased reasoning.  But then again so is our viewpoint.  Welcome to limbo.  No one ever "wins" the debate, they merely keep it alive.

I'm a machinist, you are not.  You will never understand me or convince me otherwise.  Surrender now.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

PS10N wrote:

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion.  However that is probably the only "fact" in your argument.  Everything else is based on presumptions and biased reasoning.  But then again so is our viewpoint.  Welcome to limbo.  No one ever "wins" the debate, they merely keep it alive.

I'm a machinist, you are not.  You will never understand me or convince me otherwise.  Surrender now.

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Croesus wrote:

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

Croesus wrote:

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

Jesus Christ. That with the Agents is soley the Machines fault. It's their fault for making programs that need to overwrite others in order to work.

-GG

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

Well if you can program the Matrix so that 100% of the humans accept the program, then by all means show it.  Also, what Zionist keep on forgetting, and I don't know why, but guess what.  Humans lost the first Man/Machine war.  They lost!  Zion was on the verge of losing their war, but Neo brokered a truce just in time to stop the squigges from destroying Zion again.

In the world of War, the side that loses do not get to set the term.  Humans lost, Zion lost, so they do not get to set the term of the truce.

However, I know this is just going to get ignored by Zionist, which I find funny because they are acting like such Cypherite in this manner, I guess Ignorance really is Bliss isn't it?

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

Jesus Christ. That with the Agents is soley the Machines fault. It's their fault for making programs that need to overwrite others in order to work.

-GG

It's a protective system, you know when you fight an Agent that it is using a bluepill, so the Agent performs it's duty two fold, attacking, to get you to stop and, unless you're in a group large enough, run. Otherwise you know you will kill a bluepill that day. The blood is entirely on your hands.

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

The Machines are only violent toward Humankind because Humankind know no better, if Humankind was to evolve past its violence and hatred, the Machines would have no need to be violent. That's the problem, the Machines can be non violent, it was them who originally sought peace with Humankind and kept to the recent truce. Humankind's nature is to be savage and violent and while they are, so will the Machines.

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me.