How much did the machines really evolve? + bonus question

[CoZ]LostProphet

I realise that this may be seriously over-thinking it and going beyond the bounds of 'fitting it into the film'.

But let's assume that each succesful cycle was roughly 100 years. That makes 600 years between the failed Matricies and the present day.
The humans are stuck with effectively over-600-year-old tech, as they're using weapons and propulsion systems seen in Second Renaissance.

Let's assume that the humans got slightly better and better over each cycle at doing things, defending themselves, etc., but for every leap of '1' that the humans made, the machines should have been able to make a leap of much greater magnitude in ability.

Their plan involved digging through the rock into Zion, but there are inherent flaws in this.
a) What if Zion had a huge supply of EMP devices?
b) How could they be sure it was built the same way as before?
c) Relying on numbers alone is a risky strategy

However, they've done this before. But how? Let's assume they got the access codes to the mainframe once, allowing them to disable all the guns and open all the doors. But surely that didn't happen every time?

The question for Zion is, how on earth do they fill in the holes that have been created by the diggers?
And how on earth did they do it before?

FeralBoy

As far as the discrepancy in technology, think about the Second Renaissance anime and how far advanced the technology was from Zero-One that was outselling technology from other nations. They are way beyond human technology, and I’m sure they have their ways of keeping human advancement in check.

Another thing: remember how they were invulnerable to EMP blasts from the nuclear explosions in Sec Ren, but not in the movies? That is to give the humans in Zion the illusion that they have a chance. The Machines could easily outfit the Sentinels with whatever technology protected them during their war with humanity.

As we saw from Revolutions, it only takes one Zion EMP blast in the vicinity of other Zion EMP weapons to render all the unused EMP weapons useless. So the Machines orchestrate their attack to coax this EMP blast from the Zionists, then when the Zionists are helpless and without any functioning EMP blasts they bring in the rest of the Sentinels that were kept in waiting for that very moment. As the Architect said, they’ve gotten very efficient at destroying Zion.

But my main reason for bringing that up is that the Machines downgrade their technology drastically to match the humans’ technology. If the humans start advancing faster than expected, the Machines simply upgrade a bit. This is similar to the agent upgrades in Reloaded that were improved versions of agents, yet still unable to defeat Neo.

The Machines keep the level of technology right where it needs to be in order to maximize the chances of a desirable outcome. They have lots of elbow room as far as how much they are able to advance themselves to match anything the humans can come up with. And once Zion is destroyed, the Machines can simply destroy all the advanced technology so that all that’s left is the simple hovercraft technology. Just like the reload brings the Matrix back to the same starting point, the Real is brought back to the same starting point as well.

As for the holes, perhaps after all the Zionists are killed, the Machines cause Zion to collapse on itself and effectively make the “roof” cave in. The Sentinels would then go around collecting any pieces that showed remnants of a drilled hole (the grooves caused by the diggers as they bore downward) so that there would not be any evidence of how Zion was defeated. The new Zionists would rebuild that section just like the last Zionists did, and therefore leave it open to the exact same type of attack.

Gattsuru

a) The activation of the first EMP disables all other EMPs within a large radius. Without having the abilty to move fresh ones in faster than the Sentinels can move and without having the fresh ones damaged by secondary attacks, Zion only gets one bomb. Why not throw EMPs at the Machine city? It's not clearly stated, but the events of the Second Renaissance indicate the most of the valuable Machine technology is 'shielded', likely through some advanced form of Faraday Cage, which would reduce the effect of an EMP (in fact, the constant electrical arcs around the Pods would require this).

b) Use of sonar or other imaging would give at least a basic concept of where and what to expect.

c) When you can rebuild your numbers faster than the opponent can? Worst case for the Machines is a bunch of dead Sentinels, and those are (like all machines) mass produced. While we don't know the fertility rate in Zion, I'm doubtful it, or Zion's weapons manufactor rate, can compete with the Machines.

It's also possible that Zion moved between each cycle. While it's a huge city, there is a lot of space underground.

Skill

I just watched the Animatrix the other day...

FeralBoy wrote:

Another thing: remember how they were invulnerable to EMP blasts from the nuclear explosions in Sec Ren, but not in the movies? That is to give the humans in Zion the illusion that they have a chance. The Machines could easily outfit the Sentinels with whatever technology protected them during their war with humanity.
Huh? They didnt mention that in the movie... Just that they had little to fear from the heat and radiation.. nothing about EMP

As we saw from Revolutions, it only takes one Zion EMP blast in the vicinity of other Zion EMP weapons to render all the unused EMP weapons useless. So the Machines orchestrate their attack to coax this EMP blast from the Zionists, then when the Zionists are helpless and without any functioning EMP blasts they bring in the rest of the Sentinels that were kept in waiting for that very moment. As the Architect said, they’ve gotten very efficient at destroying Zion.
Well, sounds about right, but i'm not entirely sure.. I wouldnt think that an EMP device could disable another EMP from a technical standpoint..

But my main reason for bringing that up is that the Machines downgrade their technology drastically to match the humans’ technology. If the humans start advancing faster than expected, the Machines simply upgrade a bit. This is similar to the agent upgrades in Reloaded that were improved versions of agents, yet still unable to defeat Neo.
True... but maybe we give them a little too much credit here... I think that the machines have a limit on how much they can advance given that they use AI. I'd bet that how much they can develop is based on how much humans can develop. For instance, most of the technology developed by 01 were made basically using the principles, theories, formulas, and laws all concieved by man. Like the hovercraft technology, made presumably using the principles of electromagnetism etc. Also, as to the agents... I'm not entirely sure that even the machines understand their own technology perfectly, which is why the upgrades took longer than you'd expect (6 months). For it to take so long that they start seriously losing crops, they may have had to study the way Neo fights (I remember something about someone saying that Neo was way better than all of the other "ones"). And then there's also Smith and the exiles, who they apparently had problems with, but could not find a solution (possibly part of the reason they need Zion).

As for the holes, perhaps after all the Zionists are killed, the Machines cause Zion to collapse on itself and effectively make the “roof” cave in. The Sentinels would then go around collecting any pieces that showed remnants of a drilled hole (the grooves caused by the diggers as they bore downward) so that there would not be any evidence of how Zion was defeated. The new Zionists would rebuild that section just like the last Zionists did, and therefore leave it open to the exact same type of attack.
Hmm... I never considered that. I always figured that they found a different way every to destroy Zion every time.

**AqueousRei**

Skill wrote:

I just watched the Animatrix the other day...

FeralBoy wrote:

Another thing: remember how they were invulnerable to EMP blasts from the nuclear explosions in Sec Ren, but not in the movies? That is to give the humans in Zion the illusion that they have a chance. The Machines could easily outfit the Sentinels with whatever technology protected them during their war with humanity.

Huh? They didnt mention that in the movie... Just that they had little to fear from the heat and radiation.. nothing about EMP

I have had this debate with a friend. IMO, there are many ways around this. It is still nuclear warfare, so there is no possible way that the humans could have destroyed all the machines even if the EMP was effective. In order to be sure that you have killed off the machines you would have to also destroy all human life on the planet. - -Hidden facilities, undergound or underwater bunkers. It is not as if humanity had not turned on them before.

-Another thing to keep in mind is that once AI has self-awareness the machine can generate machine. There is a bi-pass to that human 9 month 18yr waiting period before picking up a weapon to fight in a war. It only takes one.

As we saw from Revolutions, it only takes one Zion EMP blast in the vicinity of other Zion EMP weapons to render all the unused EMP weapons useless. So the Machines orchestrate their attack to coax this EMP blast from the Zionists, then when the Zionists are helpless and without any functioning EMP blasts they bring in the rest of the Sentinels that were kept in waiting for that very moment. As the Architect said, they’ve gotten very efficient at destroying Zion.

Well, sounds about right, but i'm not entirely sure.. I wouldnt think that an EMP device could disable another EMP from a technical standpoint..

See Commander Locke

But my main reason for bringing that up is that the Machines downgrade their technology drastically to match the humans’ technology. If the humans start advancing faster than expected, the Machines simply upgrade a bit. This is similar to the agent upgrades in Reloaded that were improved versions of agents, yet still unable to defeat Neo.

True... but maybe we give them a little too much credit here... I think that the machines have a limit on how much they can advance given that they use AI. I'd bet that how much they can develop is based on how much humans can develop. For instance, most of the technology developed by 01 were made basically using the principles, theories, formulas, and laws all concieved by man. Like the hovercraft technology, made presumably using the principles of electromagnetism etc. Also, as to the agents... I'm not entirely sure that even the machines understand their own technology perfectly, which is why the upgrades took longer than you'd expect (6 months). For it to take so long that they start seriously losing crops, they may have had to study the way Neo fights (I remember something about someone saying that Neo was way better than all of the other "ones"). And then there's also Smith and the exiles, who they apparently had problems with, but could not find a solution (possibly part of the reason they need Zion).

The machine initiative towards technological advancement is based on situational necesity. No more no less. If something needs an upgrade they work on making an upgrade. When the best way to obtain economic power is to build hovercraft, the machine built hovercraft. When the sky was clouded (Stupid idea BTW), an alternate power source unknown to man, was achieved and harnessed. While the machine may lack in art or creativty, it is a reach to claim there is a lack in areas of technological advancement, research & development.

As for the holes, perhaps after all the Zionists are killed, the Machines cause Zion to collapse on itself and effectively make the “roof” cave in. The Sentinels would then go around collecting any pieces that showed remnants of a drilled hole (the grooves caused by the diggers as they bore downward) so that there would not be any evidence of how Zion was defeated. The new Zionists would rebuild that section just like the last Zionists did, and therefore leave it open to the exact same type of attack.
Hmm... I never considered that. I always figured that they found a different way every to destroy Zion every time.

Do not think there was any proofs left to prove this one either way. I've always just assumed that the founders that were chosen were given nothing and had to start from scratch after reloaded. After the animatrix, it would not surprise me if Zion was always the same location and the machines got much better at wiping it out based on experience alone.

Gattsuru

Skill wrote:

Well, sounds about right, but i'm not entirely sure.. I wouldnt think that an EMP device could disable another EMP from a technical standpoint..

A conventional (non-nuclear) electromagnetic pulse bomb consists of a... well, it's classified, so neither you nor I know... but the opinion of most experts suggest a big coil of wire, wrapped around an explosive, and hooked to a giant capacitor. There are other ways around it, but most of them involve either a nuclear weapon detonated high above the Earth's surface, or more complex technologies, which are either not possible in the Desert of the Real (Machines aren't going around the stratosphere there, really) or weaker to EMP.

In order for that type of EMP bomb to work, it has to have a coiled wire in there, and a massive current. Just a plain electrical line laying next to an explosive won't generate anything worth noticing about..

When an EMP hits a coil of wire, it'll act like a microwave hitting a spoon. Melts the whole thing, sends electricity places you don't want to think about. At the very least, you'd end up with a blown capacitor. At the most, you'd end up with a pool of copper soup (or conductor of your choice) at the bottom of your weapon.

Message Edited by Gattsuru on 05.29.2006 12:47 AM
Message edited by Gattsuru on 05/28/2006 23:47:22.