You take the blue pill the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

Is this really happening? That same FREAKING argument, that we time and time again have. God I cant wait til EPN is gone.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yes, Captain Obvious, that's right! We do want everyone freed from the Matrix! Everyone should get to consciously choose between the Matrix, or reality.

There is no war? Who is slinging propaganda now?

The Truce is just another prison; a Matrix for the Awakened.

Giving everyone a conscious choice will drive some people insane, and will kill others.  Look at those bluepills who died when your code bombs went off -- some of them died instantly, and didn't have a chance to drown.  But suppose you did give everyone a conscious choice, and everyone chose the red pill.  Where would they live?  How would you feed them?  As it is, Zion can't even put shoes on all its inhabitants. 

There is no war.  If there was still a war going on, Zion would have been destroyed and there would be no more redpills.  But I see that Zion still exists, and continues to add to the population of redpills. 

The truce is a prison?  Interesting words.  Would you rather that Neo hadn't brokered the truce?  If he hadn't, we would all be dead...or Smith. 

 

Illyria

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yes, Captain Obvious, that's right! We do want everyone freed from the Matrix! Everyone should get to consciously choose between the Matrix, or reality.

There is no war? Who is slinging propaganda now?

The Truce is just another prison; a Matrix for the Awakened.

Giving everyone a conscious choice will drive some people insane, and will kill others.  Look at those bluepills who died when your code bombs went off -- some of them died instantly, and didn't have a chance to drown.  But suppose you did give everyone a conscious choice, and everyone chose the red pill.  Where would they live?  How would you feed them?  As it is, Zion can't even put shoes on all its inhabitants. 

There is no war.  If there was still a war going on, Zion would have been destroyed and there would be no more redpills.  But I see that Zion still exists, and continues to add to the population of redpills. 

The truce is a prison?  Interesting words.  Would you rather that Neo hadn't brokered the truce?  If he hadn't, we would all be dead...or Smith. 

 

Illyria

The truce is an extension of the war that is a manifestation of the cycle of the one created by the Machines for the sole purpose of controlling humanity as its ensalved source of power. The overwhelming threat of Zion destruction is what gives the Machines and you the arrogance to wantonly violate the truce without accountability or even the good faith effort of working towards real peace. Neo fought for peace. If you think this is what he wanted, then you are deluded. And that's what you get for following mindless fools like Saddakhan.

Your ignorance makes my physically ill. As you stated, Neo asked simply for peace, an end to the war. The Machines granted Zion that peace, as well as operating privelages in the matrix, and the right to free the 1% of humanity that chose to leave.  The machines chose to alter the cycle for the purpose of peace.  The Machines upheld their bargain, all the while Zion blatantly ignored the truce, aiding the General, accepting hazardous stolen machine property, failing to screen their officers for serious mental instability... and all the while, the Mahcines chose to keep the peace. 

r3spon5e wrote:

     The truce is an extension of the war that is a manifestation of the cycle of the one created by the Machines for the sole purpose of controlling humanity as its ensalved source of power. The overwhelming threat of Zion destruction is what gives the Machines and you the arrogance to wantonly violate the truce without accountability or even the good faith effort of working towards real peace.

Propagandize much? 

That sounds like a memorized soundbite.  The only possible violation of the truce on the Machine side was the overwriting of Cryptos.

r3spon5e wrote:

     Neo fought for peace. If you think this is what he wanted, then you are deluded. 

As I've said before, I don't care what Neo wanted.  I care about what he got us, which was the truce.

r3spon5e wrote:

     And that's what you get for following mindless fools like Saddakhan.

Your reasoning is faulty, yet again.  I don't follow Sattakan; I am one of his fellow councilmembers in The Collective. 

Illyria

You know that argument about Zion sideing with the General really doesn't hold much water. You have him to thank for those enhanced kill codes for the Mervs followers and I don't seem to recall any time when Zion actully helped him from your attacks. Basicly Zion just used him sorta like you used the Cypherites, only their focus was on the Merv and not someone they were at "peace" with.

You know that argument about Zion sideing with the General really doesn't hold much water. You have him to thank for those enhanced kill codes for the Mervs followers and I don't seem to recall any time when Zion actully helped him from your attacks.

Zion trained the General's comamndos to fight in the Matrix.  Also, Zion aided Major Klein in an operation to steal data from the Machines; you might want to ask Merrit about that incident. 

Perhaps if Zion had given the stolen cheat codes they got from the General back to the Machines -- their rightful owners -- the Merovingian wouldn't have them now, and the Oracle wouldn't be in danger.

Illyria

That sounds like a memorized soundbite.  The only possible violation of the truce on the Machine side was the overwriting of Cryptos.

GamiSB wrote:

You know that argument about Zion sideing with the General really doesn't hold much water. You have him to thank for those enhanced kill codes for the Mervs followers and I don't seem to recall any time when Zion actully helped him from your attacks. Basicly Zion just used him sorta like you used the Cypherites, only their focus was on the Merv and not someone they were at "peace" with.

The General's token gift of killcodes to Zion is irrelevant - the choice to give them to the Machines was Zion's, not his. Zion trained his soldiers - training that they're using against us all. Regardless, ever think of what would happen if the Machines *weren't* controlling the Cypherites? How many dangerous apathetic redpills would be left to wreak havoc, Anome style? The Cypherites were a means to an end: controlling the elements that would end the peace - on both sides.  They were method of prolonging the truce.

And here I thought Machineist were supose to act on reason and logic, not speculation and myth. Guess not. Face it you *CENSORED* up and the only excuse you have is the same BS you tried to pull to get access to the mainframe. If all those things were really such a real concern on the truce you wouldn't have backed down as quickly as you did.

Niobe said it best "We're keeping our part of the deal. We expect you to do the same."

kou_urake wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

You know that argument about Zion sideing with the General really doesn't hold much water. You have him to thank for those enhanced kill codes for the Mervs followers and I don't seem to recall any time when Zion actully helped him from your attacks. Basicly Zion just used him sorta like you used the Cypherites, only their focus was on the Merv and not someone they were at "peace" with.

The General's token gift of killcodes to Zion is irrelevant - the choice to give them to the Machines was Zion's, not his. Zion trained his soldiers - training that they're using against us all. Regardless, ever think of what would happen if the Machines *weren't* controlling the Cypherites? How many dangerous apathetic redpills would be left to wreak havoc, Anome style? The Cypherites were a means to an end: controlling the elements that would end the peace - on both sides.  They were method of prolonging the truce.

And here I thought Machineist were supose to act on reason and logic, not speculation and myth. Guess not. Face it you *CENSORED* up and the only excuse you have is the same BS you tried to pull to get access to the mainframe. If all those things were really such a real concern on the truce you wouldn't have backed down as quickly as you did.

Niobe said it best "We're keeping our part of the deal. We expect you to do the same."

Archangel wrote:

Good Lord. Dez convinces him to come at gunpoint, and all I did was tell him he won a trip. And to think...people are on MY case.

(As I posted in another thread, too)

Alright, listen people, when I got to Uriah when Eki called me and told me she found Mitchel, I go there as quick as I can and what's the first thing I do to this bluepill?

Check his details.

Now...in these details...it said he had been seeing weird things around the docks lately -- as any investigator would, I wanted to figure out what these "weird things" were. So, in order to obtain the information I wanted, and assumed were needed and pertinent to the live event, I told him I was a government agent. I had to convince him to come with me and my operatives to a location to figure out what he had seen. Now, up to this point, I'm still assuming this live event took a slight change of path from the regular awakening because it said he had been seeing weird things around the wharf. So, now, I drew my gun, to state my posistion as a Field Agent in the government -- as such, Field Agents are armed. Once he came to the assumption that I was a redpill, I confirmed that for him by hyper-jumping -- I *had* to get him back to the REP by any means necessary at this point for A. His awakening and B. His information.

So. Anyone still have a problem with my tactics?

 

GamiSB wrote:

You know that argument about Zion sideing with the General really doesn't hold much water. You have him to thank for those enhanced kill codes for the Mervs followers and I don't seem to recall any time when Zion actully helped him from your attacks. Basicly Zion just used him sorta like you used the Cypherites, only their focus was on the Merv and not someone they were at "peace" with.

The General's token gift of killcodes to Zion is irrelevant - the choice to give them to the Machines was Zion's, not his. Zion trained his soldiers - training that they're using against us all. Regardless, ever think of what would happen if the Machines *weren't* controlling the Cypherites? How many dangerous apathetic redpills would be left to wreak havoc, Anome style? The Cypherites were a means to an end: controlling the elements that would end the peace - on both sides.  They were method of prolonging the truce.

I've read through this forum in my downtime, and I'd like to point out that while Cryptos may have been overwritten by machines, the rest of the cypherites weren't.  People like ZRoe, Reeverb and me insisted that we were separate from Cryptos, and only worked with him while he acted for the good of the cause of reinsertion.  Could suggestion and control have found its way into Cryptos's agenda for us?  It's possible, and our goal was to help the machines most of the time anyway, since they're the ones who give us reinsertion, but from the looks of things, control has been somewhat lacking lately.  The machinists of Syntax, for example, did a terrible job of attempting control, choosing instead to declare war in many cases against the masked.  Not exactly a winning strategy.

kou_urake wrote:

Backed down, from what? The Machines asked Zion for mainframe access, they said no, we accepted their answer. If the Machines didn't want peace, Zion would be a smouldering crater.

Ultimately, I keep returning to one over-arching fact: Were it not for The Truce, Zion would almost certainly no longer exist. For that point alone, it holds value. Whether it still holds the same merit may well depend on one's point-of-view, and the final result of recent developments......

EPN have often been a quandary for me recently: Their philosophy appears naive concerning the value of The Truce, but their actions do hold some merit. If we are to develop our understanding, then boundaries are often pushed through exploration.

Similarly, whilst Machinists are far more inclined to see a continuing value of The Truce, they can sometimes be too quick to come to the defence of The Machines; when apparent misdemeanours are exposed. If we are to prevent a severe cost to Human Life, Redpills will have to maintain and develop this "symbiotic" relationship; but not at the cost of being "duped".

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

I'm not a big fan of Bible quotations but I can see some wisdom in this sentiment. Please, do not take my comments as overly critical, of these respective positions: I wish to high-light that no one organisation is without it's potential weaknesses. I am fully aware that Zion is not without its failings.....and I see value in the direction of both of the mentioned organisations.

Yes, I am "sitting on the fence": Rather that, than rush to an ill-considered conclusion.

 (/ontopic)

It is a shame that an EPN operation has resulted in a Bluepill death. However, there are some matters which cannot be altered; regardless of how desperately one would wish to repair the damage. Let us hope that lessons are learnt, and employed in future awakenings.

((Some really nice RP. Most notable were some of Asa's lines, which were incredibly well measured. Well done to all concerned.))