I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Praey1 wrote:

I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

 

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

 

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Reinsertion? You're suggesting we all go back to being bluepills? Interesting point of view, though besides the players that wouldn't agree, it's not a company's politics. Tho there are rumours of all our jacks being plugged once Bioware's Kotor MMO comes out. All interpreted from SoE statements, so I wouldn't rely on them.

Praey1 wrote:

I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

 I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while  humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix.

The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

 The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.

GamiSB wrote:

Praey1 wrote:

 

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.

 

That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.

NeoExcidious wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Praey1 wrote:

 

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.

 

That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.

I did in fact i reread it several times when first posting because at first glance it looked correct but then noticed the errors. Next time quote the rest of my response because in it i pointed out that they did not repay humanity with everything they had done to them. There are no parallels ibetween what humans did and what the machines are doing.

Humanity wanted to destroy all Machines, not manipualte or control but flat out make sure every nut and bolt was scrap metal. What did the Machines do during all this hate comeing from humans? They tried to save humanities economy, they worked out deals with humans that were not as hateful, and they attempted to give humanity a paradise to live within after they had brought humanity to it's knees.

My point was that what they saw was not all they were taught. They originally were pure and innocent which can be seen by their attempts at cooperating with humans in their economic crisis. Even after the wars first stage had ended they tried to give man his fictional heaven. If all they had learned was by man's example they would have never tried to help humans rebuild their economy and attacked as soon they reached depression.

psilody wrote:

1/ First off, yes Rare means that AFTER the 6th, you will not be able to officially get a Yellow or Blue tag. However, until then they are taking requests (wonder how many new last minute Factions are gonna show up...)

2/ And actually, how many chars do you have on yer server? Take yer other two slots and make new chars. Have one recruit the other and you have yer first crew. Then all you have to do is find ONE person to be in your crew. I think you only need two crews to form a faction, or is it three? dunno never tried. Anyway, you dont even neccessarily need your other person to be dedicated. Find a friend who has a spare slot and have them make a char for you to recruit. It can even be temporary until you get far enough along to really recruit.

3/ Im just saying if you are really serious and hop to it, you could probably pull it off...

4/ And if you are wondering, this is exactly how practically everyone in this game has their own Faction. Or they are using dual accounts...

1/ I know what the cuttoff date is.

2/ I have one character on the relevant server. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious? I would need three dummy characters from at least two friends to start a faction without any "proper" recruits, assuming I can't use my own characters. Can an offline charatcre be invited to join a faction and then accept when the inviter is offline, next time they're on? (A somewhat baffling last sentence, even to me.)

3/ I am serious, but I am neither strong nor developed enough to form and lead my own faction yet. I need to remain a member of my current one for some time to come before I'm able to branch out.

4/ I don't think I understood enough of your reply to be honest.

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

 

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

It might have been total truth as well. During the destruction of Smith at Neo's hands, Neo's RSI literally exploded with extreme violence, spreading its shards into every other Smith clone, which also then exploded. My understanding was that the part of Neo's mind that was a program (his RSI I guess) uploaded itself into the Matrix (the reason the green tint disappeared upon reloading), essentially disseminating his code and ensuring the System would not crash.

Just a thought...

Jim78UK wrote:

2/ I have one character. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious?

Not quite, my friend! It is indeed possible to have two MxO programs running at once, as long as you have two accounts!

It would be pretty laggy, but it is doable (if you're willing to cough up 15 bucks for a temp account).

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

Jim78UK wrote:

2/ I have one character. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious?

Not quite, my friend! It is indeed possible to have two MxO programs running at once, as long as you have two accounts!

It would be pretty laggy, but it is doable (if you're willing to cough up 15 bucks for a temp account).

Ah I see, now I get you. In short mate, no I'm not willing to do that. I actually pay more than fifteen bucks, as I'm a British player and we get charged £9.99 for our accounts. Kinda stinks in my opinion, as I'm fairly sure that equals more than fifteen bucks. Or did at the time I took it out anyway, which is when I did the maths.

Essentially what I would need is two friends to create three dummy characters, so I could recruit them. Unfortunately being a part of my present faction is going to be vital for some weeks (if not months) to come. I can hardly expect my faction-mates to continue to support me as far as development and help is concerned, if I'm not flying their colours any more.

You can just make a trial account off of the Station Launcher.

I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.

When I said some of us need to rewatch Animatrix and the films I meant myself as well. It's always good for any of us to refresh ourselves when dicussing all things Matrix . The Machines left, built 01 and entered the world economy. Thier technology advanced by leaps and bounds over man's, thereby mucking up the economy and ticking off the powers that be. They went to the U.N. to salvage the situation and were denied. I believe the human "powers that be" at the time had already long ago made up their minds on the matter and had zero intention of continued peace and business with the Machines and 01 long before the Machines sent their represtentatives to the U.N. I base this on the trade embargos and the resulting war. Hence my point on human manipulation of the Machines at the time.

The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far.

The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix.

Your response to the bold sentence further supports the sentence in my opinion GamisB. You state the Machines were pure and innocent (I agree, not unlike our children...) but were corrupted by Humanity. Look at humanity's actions in the short and then pay close attention to the Machines resulting reaction thereafter. You also note that Gray states the Machines pre-Matrix were naive. I agree as they believed that since they had nothing but good intentions that humanity would work with them instead of against them. As we all know it turns out they were naive and flat out wrong. If the Machines were corrupted by man, does that not imply they learned it from man? I think it does.

The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.

I never said the Machines did what they did concerning creation of the Matrix and their systems of control was done because they were "pissed". That doesn't seem logical to me. The Machines are all about purpose. There is a purpose for the Matrix and for all of their systems of control. I believe one part of the purpose is life. Not only to ensure life for the Machines but for humanity as well. I believe that the Machines would have 0 purpose without humanity. They need us for more than an energy source. I base this on the fact that all machinery created by man also had a purpose. To make our lives easier and to get certain tasks done faster. Your car, fridge, toaster and even the computer you are using are good examples of this. Without man what would the Machines do? They would have absolutely nothig to do in their existence in my opinion, jack squat in fact. They cannot evolve without man, they cannot learn without man, they have no purpose without man. I believe the Matrix was created to also keep man and machine from creating their own extinction through a never ending war.

The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.

I think the above paragraph (minus the first two sentences), is more a matter of personal opinion (in my personal opinion hehe). I believe refusal to answer a direct question without statement at all is evidence of a "possible" cover-up. Possible evidence of a cover-up suggests possible evidence of manipulation in my opinion and possible evidence of manipulation leads me to believe in a possible lack of or omitance of truth, thereby revealing a possible lie or lies. Absence of truth to me reads-lies. My opinion though .

Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.

I said going back to sleep wasnt a great analogy hehe ! I was just trying to pull any thread reader out of the Matrix mythology and remember the last time they may have been able to go back to sleep after already being fully rested. The bio-mechanics of that I guess. Your inclusion of the subconscious is very valid and supports my bio-mechanical analogy I feel. I also agree with the last sentence totally.

So, to sum up, it appears that reincertion is possible, though not feasible. It is a waste of resources, life and time to put the same "subject" through the same procedure when in the long run the end result will be the same. Eventual failure to keep thesame "subject" asleep. The mind and body of the subject (and all others like him/her), will reject the Matrix and awaken. Redesigning the Matrix for this 1% is also not feasible.

Jim78UK wrote:

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

 

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

It might have been total truth as well. During the destruction of Smith at Neo's hands, Neo's RSI literally exploded with extreme violence, spreading its shards into every other Smith clone, which also then exploded. My understanding was that the part of Neo's mind that was a program (his RSI I guess) uploaded itself into the Matrix (the reason the green tint disappeared upon reloading), essentially disseminating his code and ensuring the System would not crash.

 

Just a thought...

"That man can't see past any choice."

Far as I know, the program inserted in Neo's RSI was the antivirus for the inevitable virus strike (Smith). When the RSI exploded, the program was uploaded in the simulation, cleansing the infection.

Guys, take the multicolored quote tree somewhere more appropriate, please, like Matrix Universe.

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

 

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

K oops... I just saw that yeah, this is getting off-topic, sorry Rare. And I was about to respond.

Well... heck already this far. I think yer right that the architect is capable of lying, but i think yer wrong that the above is an example.

I guess all of this is bandying around the issue of the Removal of the tags, and the story implications. All thru, I think what Rare has been trying to say is that there aren't any. EPN and CYPH will continiue to exist, they just won't get meetings like the other orgs. And since they never had Crits, the fact that they won't have the new quests is not really a shift.

Personally, even though I have no personal stake in this change, I have to agree that I think it is highly dubious. This game has a small population, but with a dedicated core of players. I don't know exact numbers, but I think realistically that as many as two-thirds of our players are either Cyphs or EPN. In effect, over a THRID of the games population will not be directly represented in a major element of the game. (At least I take it that these meetings will have some importance. Rare has hinted that the story will be "less-linear", the implication being that our interactions with the LE chars at these meetings may shape the story. The "underground" sub-orgs can not be expected to really drive their agendas thru the officers of the main orgs.) Already, judging by the comments, this is the major confilct area within the proposed changes. I think alienating that many players is a bad idea. It may be mechanically "efficient" but it could be potentially disastrous in terms of game population. I guess we'll see.

The other point i wanted to add mirrors many other comments (im getting lax, havent read all of the last few pages)

What I take from the end of Daily LE's, and support for these org's, is that Rare will have more time freed to pursue "other things". I would really like to have it clarified what, more or less, these other things are. I mean, I'm thinking about how much time Rare must spend planning, scripting, executing, and documenting all of these LE's, and figuring it is a MAJOR investment in time. If all we are getting in return is a longer cinematic and these quests, well, unless these quests are EXCEPTIONALLY complex, I'm not seeing an even exchange. I know Rare has said the first few cine's will take time as he gets the techinique worked out, but ultimately, I dont think even a 10 minute cinematic would be a good exchange for Daily LE's.

However, if this freeing up of time means a REGULAR adition of new game content (New constructs, new districts, new Items, etc.) then i think this is a worthwhile trade. It has been refreshing over the last 6 months to see a lot of neat new content. Course, we've seen all of that at the same time that Rare has been continuing business as usual, so...

YEah, I guess Im saying that i'm not going to be impressed if all this "economizing" on Live content is just in exchange for a cinematic. Not what im lookin for out of this game.