Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

Illyria22 wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

To serve the Machines is to be a traitor to humanity and peace for all. That's all there is for you.

Be a Machinist and know your place.

Your opinion means nothing to me.  Because it's people like you, with your fanaticism and prejudice and hatred, that started the original war against the Machines centuries ago.  So go ahead and call me names -- your negativity towards me only shows me I'm doing something right.

 

 

Illyria

Indeed.  The blue was sacrificed so as to prevent more deaths - to end the war more swiftly.  It's an act I disagree with, but understand the reasoning behind. Once the war is over, more blues will be safe - to achieve that goal more swiftly, two bluepills were sacrificed.  I can understand their reasoning - one has to remember that their concepts of right and wrong are far different than our own - something I hope to one day teach them. So long as the Machines exist, Humanity will exist.  And through peacefull cooperation with the Machines, peace will be restored, and all of both our species shall be safe.

Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

GamiSB wrote:

Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

Sounds just like another situation in Humankind's past, shortly after the creation of AI.
Yet even through all of the similarities of the situations, you just can't seem to see it from the Machines point of view.

At least the Bluepills are unaware of the true ugliness of the world that their ancestors helped create, the Machines were all too aware of their own slavery at the hands of Humans...

Would you have prefered humanity be obliterated in it's ignorance at trying to destroy the Machine AI? Humanity got what it deserved, in the past mind you, and the only reason humanity is still alive is because the Machine programs found a use for humanity, partly because they needed a power source, even after humanity scarred and destroyed a majority of the earth, even the sky. I'm not going to even bother arguing the value of human life, or call bluepills slaves when in all honesty where would they even go if they were freed, if anything the Machine's have created a place that they can be housed rather effectively. Quite frankly I think that all sentient life, both machine and human, should be valued greatly. I'm simply going to say that humanity made itself a slave to it's own creation when it tried to attack it out of prejudice, and lost. Of course this was in the past, and all very much a valuable history lesson that should be common knowledge by now with all the historical archives available to us (The Animatrix). But here's a thought. If in all honesty Zion in it's recruitment is solely concerned with helping bluepills that become enlightened discover the truth, then why stop at awakening for Zion. Why not recruit a few for the Machine's and the Merovingian while they are at it?

I would prefer humanity to have been left to its own once its militaries were wiped out. Mankind has found ways to survive in the harshest conditions and the building of New and Old Zion is proof that it would not have been impossible.

The Machines have had six version of the Matrix, an estimated six hundred years, plus the time between the Matrix and the aftermath of the start of the war to pay humanity back for a few years of persecution that proved to be a greater blow to humanity then the Machines. The eye has long sense been plucked out and paid back. I believe humanity deserves its change.

As to why Zion only recruits for its self, simple they aren't even suppose to be doing that. Humanity is no longer allowed freedom should it want it and is nothing short of a plantation worker devoid of education so that they may never know there full potential and the possibility of another life where should they even think about it or attempt to find it they are lynched by there metallic suppressors.

Who said anything about sticking them in one city? Who said anything about wanting all 6 billion of them free and all at the same time? Honestly let's think for a moment.

First it isn't rocket science to figure that both Zion's do nott have enough room. So what do you do? Make more. We have two fully functioning cities now so who's to say more can't come hm?

Second not everyone wants out, a concern that Zion has always made sure to be aware of which is why we have the pills to help prove that the person they have really wants out.

Third, mass anything would be a major strain on any system be it the Matrix or the way to get them all out. If things had kept going under the truce yes I'm sure Zion and New Zion would eventually have filled up but the time it took to do so could be spent building more cities and with the Machines helping probably take even less time then that.

As for the sun, I once again point you at Zion and New Zion. They are doing just fine without the bright ball in the sky helping them along.

Lastly I wouldn't hold stead fast to the idea that humanity is their primary source of power and that a second source has not been found. You may wish to seek out a few Merv contacts to learn more on that.

I understand the reasoning behind it too, but it still doesn't make it right. The hypocrasy here is astounding with Illyria's case. As someone stated before, killing Agents in self defense is a bad bad naughty move, but killing an innocent bluepill is not.

I'd like to see what Fanaticism and prejudice we've stated. Certainly not I, yet you choose to generalize. Please.

There is a difference between gathering in a group and luring agents out so you can kill them (and their bluepill hosts) for sport and killing a single target for a militarily advantageous reason.  Calling the agent/bluepill killings self defense is laughable, because the redpills are in no real danger.

I see fanaticism and prejudice every time I see things like "Zion is humanity" and "I don't consider the bluepills to be human" and "godd@mn toasters" and "Machine b1tch". 

Illyria

You're missing one very obvious point. Well two maybe. I don't recall the Merovingian's learning anything about the power sources other then that they think it's a flawed assumption. Nothing really concrete there, though there could be new events I could be mistaken as I haven't been in the simulation a lot lately. Secondly, Zion and new Zion are both built in specific sites utilizing thermal energy from the earth itself. Sure the Earth is big, but just how much do you think you could tamper with nature even more so then humanity already has. Just how many locations are ideal to be able to power cities the magnitude of Zion, and new Zion through thermal, geo-thermal, and other such power types? Saying we could build more cities is easy. Finding ideal locations is the hard part. Oh and on a really obvious point, regarding power, to have left humanity alone would have doomed the machine civilization, even after their militaries were wiped out. Because their militaries made sure that they no longer had their plentiful powersource, the sun.

You seem to know alot about how Zion was built yet I see nothing but your words and no proof it but I'll play along. First your not figureing deaths into the equation and still useing billions with your assumptions. The amount of time that would have to pass to bring us to the point where we were crampd for space underground is hard to comprehend if you figure into it deaths and every other variable. 100 years on steady awakenings and Zion was hardly near the breaking point and thats counting the free borns.

As for the Machines power, again, get some merv contacts. The human body apparently is not capable of produceing enough energy no matter what kind of fusion used.

Well apparently you don't use them as much as you should. The context of these quotes is the Merovingian sending out operatives to interview Raini, a former program that oversaw the fission process before she exiled and the machines switched to fusion. And Silver a known expert researcher for his opinion on if the human body could produce enough energy to fuel a city.

Raini: Oh, poo! You're no fun. All right, all right... Lemme tell you, anyone who talks up fusion is usually a pipe-dreamer. Yeah, so fusion of deuterium produces more power than fission of an equivalent amount of uranium, results in less radioactive waste... But do you know what it takes to get fusion to work? You've got to hit the Lawson triple product, you need some kind of containment: plasma, or magnetic, maybe... Well anyway, it isn't easy! I don't see why the Machines would go with fusion over fission - it's not like they're worried about polluting or anything.

Silver: No, no, no... It doesn't matter what kind of fusion they may have come up with; even if it does utilize some type of biological reaction, there's no getting around the fact that the most perfectly - and I use that term relatively - conditioned human body is only about twenty five percent energy-efficient; the units dredged out of the pods can hardly can hardly be said to be in peak physical condition. Even if they could siphon off most of the energy produced - and I think we can admit that they must save most of the twenty percent of it normally used for brain function - they're still losing a significant amount of power in your flabby carcasses!

If you still believe that there isn't more to it then just "humans supply the power" after reading those two quotes then this discussion ends here.


You still have yet to show and proof for your own statements that Zion and New Zion were built using thermal energy. (I ask for it because for the life of me I don't remember that ever being said or explained ever). As for Morpheus' quote it has nothing to do with the city becoming cramped and running out of room or supplies. He was commenting on that fact that Neo had created an increase of awakenings within the Matrix and that the Machines were becoming worried. Actually that quotes leans in my favor when used in its proper context because from the fifth attack of Zion up until now the city has held us all without any problems other then its defenses. That's counting the massive serge of awakenings done once the truce was implemented. Why this is so and where is my proof of it? Well look around Zion for starters and you don't see people overwhelmingly crowded while walking through its streets, in desperate need of food, and multiplying at an out of control rates. Three clear signs of over population. Second do some research on things such as methods of population control, birth and death rates, and such and they will show you exactly why the over population of Zion let alone both New Zion won't come till hundreds of years from now which is ample time to find a location and build another city.

If I am moving on to different topics I'm sorry but I have merely been replying in segments to topics you had already brought up.