Humans as Power? Impossible!

**Garu**

Tytanya_MxO wrote:

Unsure whether you have followed the Merov Criticals where these points are raised specifically but my point of concern is that the story itself is demanding these questions to be asked, in doing so the 'believebility' of the world is shaken but worse the mechanisms used to raise the question have a cascade effect in undermining many many other areas of the matrix - it has literally shone its light and forced us to look on the strings and pulleys of this trick.
There was a lot of 'nearly science' that made the Matrix so persuasive, couple that with a frenetic pace and a swamp of interesting characters and we had enough to occupy ourselves so we could overlook the odd discrepency. However take us backwards, remove or contradict our learning to date and revisit these ideas, you call into question the facts we had relied and it forces us to see things we really didnt want to, the trick ceases to exist, we cease to be involved and the potential entertainment is significantly less than it could be.
The analogy you use is literally the problem I am trying to avert, we can see how its done - its only a game - cannot be the only explanation, the imagination needs more, the story has a responsibility to convince us sufficiently to 'suspend that disbelief' atm it is actively doing the exact opposite.

I agree completely. As intriguing as it is to be exposed to the nature of how the Matrix works, after a certain point too much is revealed. I can only hope that the devs are not trying to make us believe in the functionality of the Matrix when there are so many other things that could be focused on.

We already believe the Matrix works, why does it seem like they are trying to show us the smoke and mirrors??

NightTrace

I've always had my own theory in so far as the "People are power" is concerned.

I always thought that it was BS, to be blunt [and we all know I always am].

Personally, I don't think that the pod towers provide power to the Matrix, not on the level needed to actually power it.

What I DO think, is that the towers are set up in one giant world spanning network, that connects all of the minds of humanity.

I also think that the Mechs have the pods set up to try and reuse the little bit of power that the human body produces in the pod.

And the thing that I don't think anyone else has discussed before?

I think that the reason that this is all set up, is not for the "power", but for the computing power.

I think that the mechs have set up the pods, to use the large portion of the human mind that we don't use.

While we're in the pod, we're stable. We use the part of the brain we always use, for the most part we're even content.

And they use the rest of computing.

I don't think the pod towers are the worlds largest power plant, but the worlds largest super computer.

And think about it...if they took out the pod towers? It would be an inconveince but it wouldn't threaten their entire race/way of life.

Which is why, "There are levels of survival they are willing to accept".

But..thats just one mans opinion.

**Garu**

NightTrace wrote:

I've always had my own theory in so far as the "People are power" is concerned.

I always thought that it was BS, to be blunt [and we all know I always am].

Personally, I don't think that the pod towers provide power to the Matrix, not on the level needed to actually power it.

What I DO think, is that the towers are set up in one giant world spanning network, that connects all of the minds of humanity.

I also think that the Mechs have the pods set up to try and reuse the little bit of power that the human body produces in the pod.

And the thing that I don't think anyone else has discussed before?

I think that the reason that this is all set up, is not for the "power", but for the computing power.

I think that the mechs have set up the pods, to use the large portion of the human mind that we don't use.

While we're in the pod, we're stable. We use the part of the brain we always use, for the most part we're even content.

And they use the rest of computing.

I don't think the pod towers are the worlds largest power plant, but the worlds largest super computer.

And think about it...if they took out the pod towers? It would be an inconveince but it wouldn't threaten their entire race/way of life.

Which is why, "There are levels of survival they are willing to accept".

But..thats just one mans opinion.

A very thought provoking opinion indeed. I've trained you well.

**Procurator**

That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.

Chemuel

Procurator wrote:

That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.

Civilizations don't do. They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

**Garu**

Chemuel wrote:

Civilizations don't do. They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

Drool over Chem, me thinks.

**Procurator**

Chemuel wrote:

Procurator wrote:
That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.
Civilizations don't do. They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

They enjoy the products of their various industries. When you're not working, you're out having a drink with friends, watching movies or TV, listening to music, playing computer games, reading books... Still others further science, expand our knowledge of the Universe.

What does the Machine Civilisation do instead of these things? Do they all have a job which they perform 100% of the time and to maximum efficiency? Do they appreciate art? Are they creative? We know Exiles do and are.

**Croesis**

Procurator wrote:

Chemuel wrote:
Procurator wrote:
That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.
Civilizations don't do. They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?
They enjoy the products of their various industries. When you're not working, you're out having a drink with friends, watching movies or TV, listening to music, playing computer games, reading books... Still others further science, expand our knowledge of the Universe.

What does the Machine Civilisation do instead of these things? Do they all have a job which they perform 100% of the time and to maximum efficiency? Do they appreciate art? Are they creative? We know Exiles do and are.

Introduce capitalism and big guns to the Eastern Human Civilisation?

**PS10N** · 10/23/2007 15:42:57

Somewhere on www.thematrix.com is the list of books which the Wachowski brothers required the starring cast of the movies to read. Elsewhere on the same site is a series of philosophical essays with bibliographies and a recommended reading list. Most of what the Matrix is as a philosophy is existentialism. Closer to the source, it's Japanese Existentialism, which many of you anime fans will know by experience even if you're not intellectually aware of the broader connections. Understanding the work ethic of traditional Japanese culture will shed light on why their stories and philosophies are a tacit acceptance of hardship, pain and death in the (usually slim) hope that something worthwhile will be left behind, if only worthwhile in the sense that it allows the next generation to continue the struggle. The Animatrix is the perfect example of the existential philosophy in sci-fi storytelling.

Final Flight of The Osiris: All the protagonists die, but a desperate hope is accomplished at the last moment
The Second Renaissance: All humans end up dead or enslaved, in a symbiotic yet hostile relation with the machines.
Kid's Story: Ends at a funeral with all believing the protagonist is dead, yet he transcends one hard reality for another.
Detective Story: The protagonist dies, but his would-be savior gives him redemption instead and takes away an insight.
Program: None of it was real except the pain, loss and hardship and what the protagonist takes away from it.
World Record: Leaves off in the crucial moment when it is not clear whether the protagonist can maintain being "free."
Beyond: The magic of childhood is forced away, replaced by the harsh and frightening reality of adulthood.
Matriculated: All the protagonists are killed, leaving a solitary machine with a free mind to an unknown fate.

From the link above, and very relevant to this thread:

"On the existential view, to understand what a human being is it is not enough to know all the truths that natural science — including the science of psychology — could tell us. The non-reductive dualist is no better off in this regard than is the physicalist. Nor will it suffice to adopt the point of view of practice and add categories drawn from moral theory: neither scientific nor moral inquiry can fully capture what it is that makes me myself, my "ownmost" self. Without denying the validity of scientific categories (governed by the norm of truth) or moral categories (governed by norms of the good and the right), "existentialism" may be defined as the philosophical theory which holds that a further set of categories, governed by the norm of authenticity, is necessary to grasp human existence." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

**psilody** · 11/10/2007 19:30:34

((OK so i'm SO stoked to see this thread getting into some good discussion. I don't agree with it all but I'm gald to see some real discourse. Just two things this time.

Tytanya- while I share your concerns, I think I'll quote Morpheus and say we should shed our fear of it. I certainly don't want to see the whole Matrix world unraveled. Quite the contrary, I really think that pulling this particular string could ENHANCE the Matrix world. NightTraces response is great evidence of that. As you expressed so well, the initial premise made for a great set of movies. But from the moment they carried the storyline to MxO, there has been a need for expansion. How long will this game run. Can we really expect the same basic premise to keep everyones interest hour after day after year? I think that yanking the "humans as Power" premise wil actually enhance the storyline.Please note that I've Never said "the Matrix is Impossible". All I've said is that its Purpose cannot be energy creation. That leaves room for lots of other purposes, and their exploration can fill a storyline for quite some time.

NightTrace- That's just freakin brilliant! I was just pondering that they might be keeping humans to research our brain mechanics, but actaully harnessing it? That's what I'm looking for here, is some Real reasons for there being a Matrix. That's probably the most compelling alternative explanation I've heard.))

stewartdaniels1986

Procurator wrote:

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:
psilody wrote:
To start with, there are laws regarding the behavior of energy in our universe, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws state, among other things, that energy in our universe can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only be transferred from one form to another.
psilody wrote:
We need food to produce chemical reactions to create energy.

Clear enough?
Oh please, now you're just nitpicking his choice of words. Psilody clearly meant we need food to obtain/extract/convert energy. To get energy in a state that's usable within the human body.

All the posts in this thread to which you could have responded, and you pick one that wasn't addressed to you. The person asked for specific clarification; I obliged.

stewartdaniels1986

Croesus wrote:

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:
Human beings aren't the only energy producing entities on this planet, and the very laws to which you've referred prove that all of the energy available in the universe is in fact still available. The bodies in the pods supply bioelectricity, nothing more. Energy can come from a myriad of sources irrespective of human beings. Smash two atoms together for a better understanding.

I may be wrong, but I believe that this is exactly the point Psilody is trying to get across.

In a roundabout way, yes. But his argument is rooted in the question of why the machines would need humans as a power supply if it can be concluded that they are garnering power elsewhere as well. The resulting posts apparently created a confusion or crossbreeding of energy and electricity.

**PS10N**

Maybe they don't want human minds for computational power, having plenty of that in their advanced AI, but rather they want, need, crave that which can never be computed. Emotions, choice, free will, unpredictability, randomness of thought and action, even irrationality, neurosis, psychosis, sociopathy. Love, hate, fear, desire, regret, passion, sorrow, exultation, joy, mystical apprehension, despair, longing, rage, jealousy, envy, greed... all of these and other states of emotional experience perhaps can never be more than simulated by even the most complex combinations of circuitry and programming. Maybe there is just no substitute for the real thing; neural structures, electro chemical stimulus response and peptide bonding they can analyze, understand and control, as when in Second Renaissance the victim is made to laugh and then cry, but the ineffable quality of having the experience of the emotion eludes them. It's been suggested elsewhere that programs like the Oracle use the mind of a human in a pod as a shell, that when the Merovingian "deleted" her former shell, it was by way of killing the person who's mind had been co-opted by the program. This would basically mean that every exile takes over a bluepill the way an Agent would and uses the faculties of the physical mind to experience as a human would. "Some bits you lose and some bits you keep," takes on a whole new meaning if this method is to be considered, though most see it as being far from any canon. One might pause to wonder what the people who had been overwritten by Smith experienced. Was it as if in a nightmare or were they "blacked out" or were they fully conscious of what they were experiencing as a Smith but unable to do anything about it; what was left, if anything of Bane's consciousness when overwritten by Smith? Certainly Persephone craves the elusive and unutterable experiences that seem to only come from real human minds (hearts?) Perhaps the "level of survival they are prepared to accept" is the lonely existence without human minds to give validity to what is "to an artificial mind, all reality is virtual. [They can't tell the difference.]" It's what makes the Machines so dangerous, because Truth to them is what they are programmed to believe and there can be no other. Change their databases, and their whole world and even the way they perceive the world changes. There is something they need that they can't get without us: genuine human experience and feelings.

**Croesis** · 10/24/2007 01:57:09

I think Psilody opened up the floodgates on this one! Actually you make a very good case, quite plausable too in my opinion. We can only guess as to what the Wachowski's originally thought about this topic or even if they gave it much thought beyond the premise set down in the trilogy (it being for power generation) but regardless, even if that is what they intended the idea has shown growth. While any input they put in would be considered canon, the longer the idea grows, the more and more the possibilities present themselves especially if left unchecked. Much like a simple religion grows on the ideas of it's believers.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

"On the existential view, to understand what a human being is it is not enough to know all the truths that natural science — including the science of psychology — could tell us. The non-reductive dualist is no better off in this regard than is the physicalist. Nor will it suffice to adopt the point of view of practice and add categories drawn from moral theory: neither scientific nor moral inquiry can fully capture what it is that makes me myself, my "ownmost" self. Without denying the validity of scientific categories (governed by the norm of truth) or moral categories (governed by norms of the good and the right), "existentialism" may be defined as the philosophical theory which holds that a further set of categories, governed by the norm of authenticity, is necessary to grasp human existence." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

As a scientist - and a futurist, I guess - I take issue with this quote. But it's mildly poetic, so I'll let it stand. SMILEY

Unless you want to argue the existence of a soul, anything that happens in nature can be emulated. It's just incredibly complex. 'Human nature' and the 'self' are ultimately just the result of interactions within the brain, all following the laws of physics. That can be simulated. Humans don't do anything that disobeys the laws of physics, so those same laws can be applied to simulate it.

When it comes to the Machines, they might use humans in a supercomputer configuration to calculate things like emotions and the like, certainly, but it won't be because it's otherwise impossible: it's probably because it's the most efficient means to achieve it. Brains are already wired up to make those things, whereas the Machines would have to put in a lot of research and then develop more computers and programs to achieve it themselves. It's possible, but a waste of time.