Only through the sacrifice of a valiant Zion crew, were we able to secure data as to Halborn’s broadcast signal. This information cost these soldiers their lives and provided Carlyne with the information to produce his weapon against Halbourn. I am proud to have been a member of the team who stopped Halbourn’s tyranny within the simulation, but the true heroes are those who gave their lives in The Real; in order to avail us of the opportunity.

Whilst I would not expect open words of thanks from The Machines for assisting in the preservation of their construct, some cessation to hostilities would seem a suitable form of recognition. Yet, even whilst Carlyne announces his corresponding departure from The Matrix, we are already seeing the return of The Machines’ aggressive intent towards Zion soldiers.

Humanity has suffered the loss of Life, in direct benefit to The Matrix and its populace. Does no-one else see the parallels with Neo’s last acts? Where is the equality within this symbiotic relationship which our two species hold?

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

((Thanks for the kind words. I did very little which deserves credit but I am very flattered by them, none the less; especially as to the people they come from.))

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

Why would Zion or even Machinists have needed to know about the colony? Apart from curiosity, what use to Zion or us would knowledge of it's existence have been? Humans getting along or living with Machines? What do you think most Machinists have been trying to achieve? If anything it proves our point that it can happen. 

If it wasn't for the intruders we still wouldn't know about it and the only people coming close to finding out something were the Mervs but even then they wouldn't have known about it specifically. Getting information is not always a right, much of the time it's either need to know or a priviledge, the same as any military and heirarchy. You think that the council and top Zion military members tell you everything? I doubt it. The term is information security.

We still have no idea as to the relationship that the Machines have with the colony's Oligarchy and the rules it is based on, so you can question the actions and information policy of the Machines all you want but for all you know, they may only be following the rules of their relationship with the colony.

Coro wrote:

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

Why would Zion or even Machinists have needed to know about the colony? Apart from curiosity, what use to Zion or us would knowledge of it's existence have been? Humans getting along or living with Machines? What do you think most Machinists have been trying to achieve? If anything it proves our point that it can happen. 

If it wasn't for the intruders we still wouldn't know about it and the only people coming close to finding out something were the Mervs but even then they wouldn't have known about it specifically. Getting information is not always a right, much of the time it's either need to know or a priviledge, the same as any military and heirarchy. You think that the council and top Zion military members tell you everything? I doubt it. The term is information security.

We still have no idea as to the relationship that the Machines have with the colony's Oligarchy and the rules it is based on, so you can question the actions of the Machines but for all you know, they may only be following the rules of their relationship with the colony.

May be you misinterpreted my last comments: they were a call for equality in the co-existence of Man and Machine. Whether the colony is an good example or not is neither here-nor-there in my view: it highlights a current disparity in the relationship, or tiers to how Humanity is treated by its Machine counterpart.

Information security is one thing, but "truth-will-out" eventually: New Zion for example. The Colony's existence is now known, yet your masters still do not avail you of even the vaguest details! This is no longer a "need-to-know" subject, as its existence is in the public domain. The Machines simply don't want to justify their actions and hope that more will, like you, be diverted from seeking answers.

From my mind, The Oligarchy is named as such for a reason and the connotations of this term could be far-reaching. Have you considered that the term refers to the entire colony? May be this is why Procurator finds the phrase so unpalatable. But, may be I'm wrong...

If I am right, then we are the obvious under-class. Do you not see that The Machines are still controlling what you believe to be true?! You are being fed information just like our time in the pods.

Equality never happens overnight, especially when a portion of the group that wants equality still shows signs of why that group ended up being unequal in the first place. Again I ask what advantage would we having in knowing details of the colony now, at this time? Why do they need to tell us superflous information? As I said, the rules that govern the relationship may prohibit the Machines passing on the information. The exisitence may no longer be need to know, it wasn't the Machines who gave out the information but members of the colony itself, but further information could well be need to know.

So we're being fed information? So what, Children are fed certain information whilst they are learning and gain more insight into subjects when they are old enough to comprehend and articulate the knowledge. Who's to say that he Machines are doing anything different.

First comes a truce, then trust, then after a time peace, only at this point is when both sides recognise each other as equals, an equality that slowly builds as the process happens. To expect anything else is ridiculous.

From my mind, The Oligarchy is named as such for a reason and the connotations of this term could be far-reaching. Have you considered that the term refers to the entire colony? May be this is why Procurator finds the phrase so unpalatable. But, may be I'm wrong...

Vinia: A skillful and well-written analogy, but is it not the child's thirst for learning which drives it to develop? You call for patience, but for how long? Is it not the child who ultimately dictates the pace of its learning?

Procurator: Yes, these are semantics I agree, and their inaccurate use at that. I seem to remember Agent Gray referring to the intruders as The Oligarchy, else I would have not used the term. In fact, describing the intruders as The Oligarchy is actually less descriptive. What I was trying to allude to is that the whole free-born colony is comprised of Oligarchs; the ruling elite. These individuals have been pardoned from pod life, due to some as yet unclassified quality. Thus, we form part of the oligarchy as the subservient under-class. Do you not question why you have been treated less favourably than other of your species? Who has made this choice?

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

Kudos to everyone involved in this Operation. Regardless of Halborn's intentions, his temper and attitude make him a threat to EVERYONE. Hoepfully this threat has been nuetralized, for a little while at any rate. ((Gah! sems like Im always at work these days when the good stuff goes down. This opne looked pretty fun))

As to the discussion that Coro has initiated, I have been of the opinion that the "humans as power" scenario for the Matrix is hogwash for a long time now.

See this past thread: Humans as power....

However, it seems clear to me that Halborn was in no way a proponent of human freedom or interests. He was here for some selfish reason of his own, and only incidentally exposed whatever group/place it is he and Carlyne come from. And while Carlyne has been somewhat forthcoming with details about Halborns condition and ship, he has not revealed anything about himself, and by extension the place/people he represents. This only furthers my suspiscion that they would rather we didn't know about them at all, and that they are resposible for things they'd rather we didn't know about.

In any case, it would seem that they are about to be revealed, as searchers are closing in on multiple fronts (not physically, of course, information-wise).

So... maybe we should all work together on this goal, seeing as it calls into question the validity of the very things we are fighting each other over. I for one think this makes more sense than continuing to battle, when we don't even know if our positions have any factual legitimacy.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

I didn't get the impression that either Halborn or Carlyne cared one bit about Zion, the Matrix, or any of the humans from either. 

Illyria

Coro wrote:

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

This theory or something close to it has been pitched before. It's possible I suppose, but I would then point out that if it has some basis in truth then it would be Humankind who are responsible for the destruction of Zion in the past and the killing of innocent people, not the Machines thus anger and hatred directed toward them is unjust and should, if the theory has some truth to it, be directed at the other Humans. I still hold to what I believe, that Mankind can live with the Machines in peaceful coexistence, it is just Mankind itself preventing it.

Being one who has pitched something simular to this I'm amazed that many don't seem to want to look into it further and so many Machinest are easiy quieted when Gray and Pace start bringing out the red tape. As you have already pointd out if any of these theories are true then that would mean that it is another segment of humanity that is behind this war and the war itself is nothing more than a sham used to keep us all in control.

So in short humanity is able to coexistence even with Zion burried further underground it is just we have a coloney of humans pulling all our strings and keeping us from doing so. Removeal of said group may then become a needed action to achieve said peace.