I have a question.  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to answer it, or if they'll want to answer it, but I am curious. 

Now that there is no truce, and the Machines are at war with Zion (and EPN), how do the Zion and EPN organizations differ?  There was a time when Zion abided by the truce and EPN didn't...now that there is no truce, is there any real difference?

  

Illyria

I have a question.  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to answer it, or if they'll want to answer it, but I am curious. 

Now that there is no truce, and the Machines are at war with Zion (and EPN), how do the Zion and EPN organizations differ?  There was a time when Zion abided by the truce and EPN didn't...now that there is no truce, is there any real difference?

  

Illyria

As long, as we are not one organization, there will always be a difference between Zion and EPN. Like Cyph's and Machines. When it comes to Truce talk, I'm sure most of the Zion's and EPN's want a peaceful solution. If it's not a new "Truce" agreement then something else that can stop this war. I think it's all mater of when the Mech's are going to step foward and let us have this talk, wihtout having us all drop our weapons first. We do work together a lot, maybe it's not showed much out in the open, but there is a reason for that.

The difference is the same as the difference between The Machine and Cypherites. The two have the same overall goals but have different means of achieving and different priorities.

The original goals of the (human) Cypherites and the Machinists were very different, even though the idea behind the Cypherite organization was that it would be a counter to Zion extracting more than the 1% that rejected the Matrix.  Most Cypherites at that time talked about reinserting redpills, even those who were happy with their lives outsite the Matrix, and they were against any new people being extracted.  Most Machinists did not believe in this.  Most Machinists supported the extraction of those who rejected the simulation, and we didn't want anyone reinserted who didn't want to go back.  Both groups did share a distrust of Zion (to varying degrees) but most Machinists were less hostile towards Zion than the Cypherites were.  The Cypherites placed themselves outside the truce; most Machinists that I knew supported the truce wholeheartedly. 

Cypherites, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought your org believed that the war with Zion hadn't ended, even with the truce.  And now, since the truce fell and the Machines and Zion went to war again, our goals have become more similar.  We want to protect the Matrix and the bluepills from attacks by Zionites (and EPN) and we would like any threats from Zion to be nullified.  But most Machinists that I've spoken with are open to another truce, or a real peace between Zion and the Machines.  I'm not sure how the Cypherites feel about this...maybe they could elaborate.

Illyria

The original goals of the (human) Cypherites and the Machinists were very different, even though the idea behind the Cypherite organization was that it would be a counter to Zion extracting more than the 1% that rejected the Matrix.  Most Cypherites at that time talked about reinserting redpills, even those who were happy with their lives outsite the Matrix, and they were against any new people being extracted.  Most Machinists did not believe in this.  Most Machinists supported the extraction of those who rejected the simulation, and we didn't want anyone reinserted who didn't want to go back.  Both groups did share a distrust of Zion (to varying degrees) but most Machinists were less hostile towards Zion than the Cypherites were.  The Cypherites placed themselves outside the truce; most Machinists that I knew supported the truce wholeheartedly. 

Cypherites, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought your org believed that the war with Zion hadn't ended, even with the truce.  And now, since the truce fell and the Machines and Zion went to war again, our goals have become more similar.  We want to protect the Matrix and the bluepills from attacks by Zionites (and EPN) and we would like any threats from Zion to be nullified.  But most Machinists that I've spoken with are open to another truce, or a real peace between Zion and the Machines.  I'm not sure how the Cypherites feel about this...maybe they could elaborate.

 

Illyria

You asked about how they differ now, not during the truce and I am only stating their perceived organizational philosophy. I'm sure every person within the org has their own ideas about peace just as operatives of the Machine do. But when speaking of the organization directly a much more limited general answer is needed and that is that the two share the same goals but go about them in different ways in a different order.

And yes our view was that the war had not ended, it was simply a "cold war" and because of we went about things differently. Zion had to stay within the confines of the truce so as not to make it a real war, while EPN could do whatever it wanted sence it was no longer under the authority of Zion or apart of the truce. When the war restarted the two found themselvesin the same position.

But Zion went on the defencive to protect itself from the machine onslaught while EPN went offencive to slow the Machine down. Also EPN still keeps freeing bluepills as a top priority. Zion not so much (not to say they don't). While the Machine is much more worried about protect the system, Zion worries about protection from the system. Cypherites try and keep extractions from happening while EPN makes them happen. Each group however shares there "splits" similar goal (EPN protecting itself from the system, machines wanting to stop extractions) just places it below their differing primary.

And how can you allow everyone that wants out to be let out when you only allow 1% of those inside the simulation the chance to choose? That's what it all came down to. Zion didn't worry about this but some couldn't stand to see such a blatant display of perversion to Neo's intended vision. And why so quick to judge Zion when their inpatients was sparked by Machine invasion by the means of the Cypherites?

EPN's plan to attack the power-lines was one of those sacrifices i mentioned. We are at war after all and you can't expect attempts at your enemies jugular to go unanswered. The strike on the power-lines was during a time when the Machine was in full press against Zion and removing a source of power is logical to slow down an oncoming threat is it not? The attack was not an attempt to destory the Machine, only slow it down.

Lastly Zion has made attempts. On the Recursion instance there have been a number of meetings between the two orgs to try and push towards peace. But its hard to make counter terms with bullets being fired at you until you agree to the only one given. The Machine has made it clear that the only terms they are going to accept are there own and that is the removal of Zion from New Zion. But to answer your question no, Zion has never been interested in pity bargains.

Everyone chooses, that what the Oracle enabled, the subconcious choice. What chance would the simulation have if you went around and literally told everyone that it was fake but they could stay there if they want. As for Neo's vision, unless you knew exactly what he wanted you cannot claim any perversion happened to it. As far as we all know he asked for peace. Peace is not something that can be attained just like that but he paved the way for it by way of the truce. It is EPN who perverted the vision by operating outside the truce and risked breaking it, this is why Zion disavowed EPN. Zion began to plan New Zion almost from the start of the truce, Niobe admitted this, building began when she was held trapped by the Unlimits. This was before the Cypherites were even thought up. Certainly before any 'invasion' which only happened after the fall of the truce.

Funny how, if EPN really wanted peace, they'd plan to go and destroy the powerlines as retaliation. Thats not an action of wanting peace, thats an action of violance which just shows that you weren't interested in peace. Until you know for sure, those lines come from the only power source not a power source. I don't doubt that the Machines have some stored but do you think that there would be no disruption? You have no idea what would happen if those lines were disrupted, all that it was done for was to show the Machines you weren't going to back down and that peace wasn't an option.

As for peace attempts, has Lock, Roland, Ghost, Niobe had meetings with Gray or Pace specifically for peace? I've not heard of any and the words of soldiers with soldiers don't carry any weight in diplomacy. It's not exactly hard to send a message with counter terms to your opposition, you can even do it electronically if you want to avoid the bullets. Until counter terms are presented you have no idea that the Machines would only accept, but I am talking about negotiating terms for allowing talks to take place, not peace, that would be taken care of at the talks.

Everyone chooses, that what the Oracle enabled, the subconcious choice. What chance would the simulation have if you went around and literally told everyone that it was fake but they could stay there if they want. As for Neo's vision, unless you knew exactly what he wanted you cannot claim any perversion happened to it. As far as we all know he asked for peace. Peace is not something that can be attained just like that but he paved the way for it by way of the truce. It is EPN who perverted the vision by operating outside the truce and risked breaking it, this is why Zion disavowed EPN. Zion began to plan New Zion almost from the start of the truce, Niobe admitted this, building began when she was held trapped by the Unlimits. This was before the Cypherites were even thought up. Certainly before any 'invasion' which only happened after the fall of the truce.

Funny how, if EPN really wanted peace, they'd plan to go and destroy the powerlines as retaliation. Thats not an action of wanting peace, thats an action of violance which just shows that you weren't interested in peace. Until you know for sure, those lines come from the only power source not a power source. I don't doubt that the Machines have some stored but do you think that there would be no disruption? You have no idea what would happen if those lines were disrupted, all that it was done for was to show the Machines you weren't going to back down and that peace wasn't an option.

As for peace attempts, has Lock, Roland, Ghost, Niobe had meetings with Gray or Pace specifically for peace? I've not heard of any and the words of soldiers with soldiers don't carry any weight in diplomacy. It's not exactly hard to send a message with counter terms to your opposition, you can even do it electronically if you want to avoid the bullets. Until counter terms are presented you have no idea that the Machines would only accept, but I am talking about negotiating terms for allowing talks to take place, not peace, that would be taken care of at the talks.

The subcon is the most influenced, rash, illogical part of the human mind. It is the most primal instinct of any human being and because of that any judgement or decision based soully off of such is never a choice of the person but only of there past experience and the influences around them. Add this to the truth of the Matrix and you have successfully created a being whise choices are no realer then the world he lives in. But because of such the possibility to go around telling everyone its a fake would do nothing. People would simply write it off has druggie speak and move on with their lives as would we.

And we do know exactly what it was that Neo wanted, thanks in part to the Machines I might add. Twice we hear him say what it is he wants (to the Machine no less) "A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible." and "peace" mix the two and you have the recipe for as good as Sentience can get it. And while I know the Machine loves to disregard the first statement even then the message still stands. We did not have peace. The 1% were not always freed thanks to Cypherites being controlled by the Machines and Zion was being attacked when it tried to awaken them. Go back and review the archives and its plan as day. Cypherism was around long before Anome, Cryptos had his venture with Agets and went missing from Zion to start up his movement shortly after the Truce came to pass. You created Zion's need to live safer by probing all its holes. If you had left them alone Zion would never have needed to go digging deeper to escape the prying eyes.

I have already explained to you the situation of the powerlines so please go back and review, or is the concept of slowing down a rampaging bull to complicated for you. We looked into and yes we did know what would happen. The power from one (of many) fields would be cut from sending energy to the city while the pods remained to self sustain themselves. The system goes unharmed as those within it, while the Machine City has a small black out in the suburbs. Oh how nasty.

"We do not negotiate with terrorist" I believe is the official statement of the government when in regards to terrorism. Seriously try and look past the Machine blinders. Its not that no one doesn't want peace. Its that everyone is knee deep in their own forms of control to even so much as hear about it without calling foul ball every second.

The subcon is the most influenced, rash, illogical part of the human mind. It is the most primal instinct of any human being and because of that any judgement or decision based soully off of such is never a choice of the person but only of there past experience and the influences around them. Add this to the truth of the Matrix and you have successfully created a being whise choices are no realer then the world he lives in. But because of such the possibility to go around telling everyone its a fake would do nothing. People would simply write it off has druggie speak and move on with their lives as would we.

And we do know exactly what it was that Neo wanted, thanks in part to the Machines I might add. Twice we hear him say what it is he wants (to the Machine no less) "A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible." and "peace" mix the two and you have the recipe for as good as Sentience can get it. And while I know the Machine loves to disregard the first statement even then the message still stands. We did not have peace. The 1% were not always freed thanks to Cypherites being controlled by the Machines and Zion was being attacked when it tried to awaken them. Go back and review the archives and its plan as day. Cypherism was around long before Anome, Cryptos had his venture with Agets and went missing from Zion to start up his movement shortly after the Truce came to pass. You created Zion's need to live safer by probing all its holes. If you had left them alone Zion would never have needed to go digging deeper to escape the prying eyes.

I have already explained to you the situation of the powerlines so please go back and review, or is the concept of slowing down a rampaging bull to complicated for you. We looked into and yes we did know what would happen. The power from one (of many) fields would be cut from sending energy to the city while the pods remained to self sustain themselves. The system goes unharmed as those within it, while the Machine City has a small black out in the suburbs. Oh how nasty.

"We do not negotiate with terrorist" I believe is the official statement of the government when in regards to terrorism. Seriously try and look past the Machine blinders. Its not that no one doesn't want peace. Its that everyone is knee deep in their own forms of control to even so much as hear about it without calling foul ball every second.

Some people say that experience makes a person. The choice is real, you just don't like the way the choice was and is presented. Imagine telling someone that the world around them is fake, do you not think that could be fatal? I can't imagine that Zion or EPN, even if given the freedom to do so, would give the choice on a person to person basis. The most effective way of telling them of the choice would be by example, showing them en masse that the world is fake.

The fisrt quote of Neo's was when he first discovered he was indeed the anomaly and he could do more than any man was suposed to, he was also indoctrinated by Zion. It was only when he gained more information fromthe Oracle and Architect that he saw what he was supposed to do and what he wanted to do. Thats when he said peace, but you have no idea the way in which that peace was to be attained so I again put it to you that you have no idea if his plans were perverted.

The Cypherites were a mistake in my opinion, but they were created to prevent Zion from trying to wake more than the 1%. Redpills led by a redpill who was overwritten to be mostly non-violent. It's Veil who upped the ante of Cypherism beyond the control of the Machines.


What holes did the Machines probe? As far as the truce was concerned the Machines did leave Zion alone, they didn't attack since Neo's sacrifice. No the new city was built out of fear, assumption and distrust. As long as Zion kept to the truce there was no need to expend resources on attacking Zion.

I read your suggestion about the powerline well enough, thanks. The only assumption you had on the effects was the human assuption that it is technology which they are fully aware of, again you didn't have a full idea of what would have happened if you were successful. That 'small' black out as you postulated doesn't mean just lights, the Machines use power to live, a 'blackout' could have possibly caused death to innocent Machines who have nothing to do with the Simulation or fighting. Besides, you said that it would slow a 'rampaging bull' you failed and the attempt just made you appear more dangerous. Once again your own doing brought the hammer down.

As for negotiating with terrorists, it's been done before and it'll be done again, the line you quoted is for those who are not meant to know the truth. It may take exceptional circumstances, but it seems that exceptional circumstances happen fairly often.

If experience is all that makes the person then someone who has already chosen not to accept the subconscious choice is still at no risk. The life filled with experience has told them that the world they picked is all there is and no amount persuasion without counter experience would tell them differently. And your last point is an assumption that is very very wrong. Zion and EPN have always used words rather then examples and gone person to person.

And can you show me anywhere where his original idea changed? Neo always believed in the freedom to choose and even up until his dying moment stood by it. Yes he realized later that the Machine was needed to create a peace but this still does not change what his dream was about. All that changed was who was apart of creating those worlds.

No offence but you opinion means jack. Cypherites may have been created to keep over extraction from taking place but that was thrown out the window the second bluepills who were apart of the allowed 1% were being killed and those making the extractions kept from doing so. Cryptos was placed as the head of the Cypherites, even if Veil went out from under him it was still his job to make sure it was dealt with and controlled. Obviously it was not and even went so far as to breaking Veil out of Zion's prison. Cryptos and the Machine apparently liked her way of doing things well enough to go through with an escape for her even after people like Gemaskerd and Enmascerado had come and gone.

The truce allowed Zion to extract humans without being attacked. Zion was being attacked by an organization formed and funded by the Machine. This was already well known but it wasn't until Seraph unveiled to everyone what was going on that Zion properly acted. Only a fool would stay put and not want to protect themselves from further breaches of security.

And you apparently have no idea on how that power is used. Every Machine is not connected to a power source and has to have a constant supply of power to function. Power is stored and used as needed just as it is on our hovercrafts. A sudden cease of power only effects those that may have needed it ASAP and to them, so sorry you had to be a sacrifice in this war but Neo knows Zion's given up enough of its population hundreds of times before. As Morpheus put it "This is war and we are soldiers, death can come for us at any time in any place." Our failure was just another part of that. So we did, but at the same time we detoured enough Machine force to target us and give Zion a small break.

Negotiations were done during a time when both sides were on even footing. Not during  a war or where the other had something to gain. Can you tell me exactly what the Machine has to gain from another truce? It works both ways. The Machine isn't exactly being all that understanding when it comes to Zion or trying to re figure their end of the deal to make it more appealing.

If experience is all that makes the person then someone who has already chosen not to accept the subconscious choice is still at no risk. The life filled with experience has told them that the world they picked is all there is and no amount persuasion without counter experience would tell them differently. And your last point is an assumption that is very very wrong. Zion and EPN have always used words rather then examples and gone person to person.

And can you show me anywhere where his original idea changed? Neo always believed in the freedom to choose and even up until his dying moment stood by it. Yes he realized later that the Machine was needed to create a peace but this still does not change what his dream was about. All that changed was who was apart of creating those worlds.

No offence but you opinion means jack. Cypherites may have been created to keep over extraction from taking place but that was thrown out the window the second bluepills who were apart of the allowed 1% were being killed and those making the extractions kept from doing so. Cryptos was placed as the head of the Cypherites, even if Veil went out from under him it was still his job to make sure it was dealt with and controlled. Obviously it was not and even went so far as to breaking Veil out of Zion's prison. Cryptos and the Machine apparently liked her way of doing things well enough to go through with an escape for her even after people like Gemaskerd and Enmascerado had come and gone.

The truce allowed Zion to extract humans without being attacked. Zion was being attacked by an organization formed and funded by the Machine. This was already well known but it wasn't until Seraph unveiled to everyone what was going on that Zion properly acted. Only a fool would stay put and not want to protect themselves from further breaches of security.

And you apparently have no idea on how that power is used. Every Machine is not connected to a power source and has to have a constant supply of power to function. Power is stored and used as needed just as it is on our hovercrafts. A sudden cease of power only effects those that may have needed it ASAP and to them, so sorry you had to be a sacrifice in this war but Neo knows Zion's given up enough of its population hundreds of times before. As Morpheus put it "This is war and we are soldiers, death can come for us at any time in any place." Our failure was just another part of that. So we did, but at the same time we detoured enough Machine force to target us and give Zion a small break.

Negotiations were done during a time when both sides were on even footing. Not during  a war or where the other had something to gain. Can you tell me exactly what the Machine has to gain from another truce? It works both ways. The Machine isn't exactly being all that understanding when it comes to Zion or trying to re figure their end of the deal to make it more appealing.

Experience is the guide which allows people to make the subconcious choice to accept the simulation or not, are you saying that if you hyperjumped in front of one of them or dodged bullets in front of a bluepill witness that wouldn't sow the seed of doubt? You can't claim that you will go around each individual, person to person to give them a choice, a choice that they have already made, that would take a very long time even without interference unless you changed your methods and provided a few examples. You say you want to give everyone the choice, well they all have that choice, they make it every day, if you say that convincing them can't happen then why bother, why not just go for the ones who already have doubts?

Yeah, Neo wanted freedom for Humanity but he originally said and what you neglected to mention was that he also said 'I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see.  I'm going to show them a world....without you.' Yet his statement at the end and action moved toward peace with the Machines which is not what he meant by 'a world without you' he also didn't say anything about just showing those who subconsciously rejected the simulation what the Machines don't want them to see. Yet at the end he agreed a truce allowing the 99% to stay in. He wanted peace, the truce was a vehicle for that but both the Machines and Zion found a loophole in the agreement, Machines with Cyphs and Zion disavowing EPN so that the Machines wouldn't attack due to a breach of the truce. So the perversion was on both sides.

As for your theory about their power, how do you know what their civilisation is like in the Machine city? Ever been there? I doubt that all the Machines fly around like sentinels in fact since many of them wouldn't have anything to do with fighting some of them may even be permanently connected to their power source. Again you make assumptions based on what you don't know.

As for negotiations and what the Machines have to gain, you just will not see the big picture will you? Significant resources have been redirected to the war, each Sentinel is an an intelligent individual, how about the prevention of death and destruction, what about ceasing conflict and starting to build trust with a species that tried to destroy you hundreds of years ago, what about peace and mutual cooperation? Working together to clear the sky and to make the world inhabitable again? Is that not a gain. Perhaps you should try to make the Machines understand when it comes to Zion and the terms, all they got when stating their terms was a big F you and hostile retaliation. Perhaps instead of that Zion should have countered the terms, as you say, it works both ways.

Not what I am saying at all. In fact I believe my point was that EPN and Zion use words over actions. Bending the rules of the Matrix is something that should be done only in need but sadly these days many over use it including machinist to boot. When such events happen it is then the job of the Machine and formerly Zion to make sense of what happened to any who witnessed. Be it telling them the truth or covering it up. Obviously some are biased which is a problem but in times of peace my hope would be that members of both parties would work towards properly analyzing said individuals to see if they truly wanted to know or if it was a one time curiosity. And as I said the subcon is too influential, to rash, to primal, to make a real choice. The subconscious tells you to eat all the candy you want because you like it and you would if your conscious did not tell you to stop. Thus a proper and conscious understanding or intro into the truth is needed for one to truly make a choice. And I reverse the question to you, if there is no point then why stop us? After all there going to choose blue anyway sense they made up their mind right?

You know why I leave that part out? Because that is the only piece of that speech that changes later. The only part that once he knew more he realized he was wrong and even then another perspective can be made on its meaning. The Machine is a symbol of control to humanity. An overbearing tyrant and Neo speaks of removeing such things, later one can go back and take this to meaning a removal of all forms of control and all binding chains be they machine dominance or man's pride. Also please show me where Neo mentioned "OK you can keep 99% but we get the 1%." Neo's part in the truce was writing the theme. The Oracle and Architect settled on percentages and figures. Your right Neo wanted peace, but he didn't say he wanted a truce or a road getting their. He flat out said he wanted it then. He later told us via left of fragments that he wanted everyone to work together, not on separate sides of the table, which I will agree Zion and the Machine were at fault for doing.

Can't say I have been to the Machine city but I've been close enough to the pods to see with my own eyes the ones there. Not a one has a cord dangling from its body. Even in viewing the Zion Archives both of past and present models, war made and those created by humans I still see no cords but all Machines moving and working on their own without the need to be plugged in 24/7. I thought the machine had evolved past the age of the toaster but apparently I was wrong.

If the Machine has such much to gain from peace and so much to loose from a war why even create the cycle? Death is obviously a setback on their part but five times over they went in full force and lost how many sentinels? All those things you quotes off were obtainable before you or I were even thought of in the Machine data bank and yet nothing was done then to achieve them so why start now? Especially after it just once again convinced itself that such idealistic concepts are beyond humanity. And being on teh receaving end of the fall Zion didn't even have enough time to get its hand up to flip the machine the bird. hell I never knew what the Machine's terms were untill after I scanned an operation log where Pace mentiond it TO MACHINE OPERTIVES. Zion got it via word of mouth long after the bullets were flying.

But sense you so kindly stated you no longer wish to try and understand the other side of things and the Machine's views are so ingrained that opening up to even hearing them out you believe to be foolish and a waste of time then i guess we do end it here. But I'll leave in saying that you can kill everyone that wears a duster or a bandanna but you will never be rid of Neoism and Cypherism. Ideas after all are bullet proof.

'I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see.  I'm going to show them a world....without you.'

That was said a long time before Neo brokered the truce.  Thankfully he seemed to move beyond that mindset into a less radical one.

Illyria

EPN being disavowed by the Council was a technical formality that was never fully true, everyday you can witness Zion Regulars fight side by side with EPN extremists and vice-versa.