Ideas can be resolved peacefully, can't they?
You may not believe me but debating with a lot of Zionists over the past two years there are a lot of us that most likely would have been content with just New Zion and the 1% that the Machines give a conscious choice to. Many people are (or at least were) under the impression that bluepills are quite happy where they are and should just be left alone for the most part. Members of Children of Zion and other old groups tracing their origins back to Beta drove me to extreme lengths of frustration discussing the topic.
Then there are people like EPN and myself within it who would prefer for everyone ideally to make a fully conscious choice, and for the world to have more of an equal balance of power to protect against incidents like mass possession (Cryptoseque redpills, Agents, etc.), monitoring, all of that. Forms of control.
The one uniting factor between the two sides is the Machines these days are out to kill both of us. They don't trust us, they think we'll go postal on them. After having to put up with all this **bullcrud** for 600 someodd years maybe they're right. I hope not. But at this point as ideally preferable as it is peace seems to be the furthest thing from most parties minds' right now. Survival's more toward the forefront.
Oh my dear, you're forgetting my adopted mantra, "Bless all forms of intelligence" yes, and I mean even the silly lot that do keep trying to kill me! *chuckles*
You're very enlightened, for a member of EPN -- it's a shame that not everyone in your organization recognizes the Machines' right to exist. A counterpart of yours on the Recursion instance told me there would be no peace while they still did, and I've heard Zionites say the same thing.
But anyway, if the Morpheus sim decides to help Zion (by not helping the Machines), the situation we're in doesn't change. But if he chooses to go the other route, giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table.
Illyria
...giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table.
As much as I hate to reply twice in rapid succession I'm afraid I must stoop.
1. How important do you think Niobe and Ghost are to Zion? Remember back over the past two years. What have they actually done other than been rallying figures? They're veterans, true. They're more powerful than the rest of us. But otherwise they're really no different, and as we've seen their job can largely be done by liasons. As I've said before, EPN also would be unaffected.
2. Back to the negotiating table? Did you watch video 8.3 at all (or 8.1 for that matter)? No negotiation. No request for surrender. No prisoners. As soon as Zion could defend itself the Machines literally wiped Old Zion City from the map. As soon as Zion could defend itself not a single person was allowed to find out the truth anymore. There is no negotiation table. The Machines obliterated it.
There was no negotiation table when Neo approached the Machines, indeed they even tried to prevent him reaching it. As we know he did. The Machines could have, albeit at the loss of all Humankind connected to the Simulation, locked down the Simulation and terminated it. Obviously it was a last resort after all other avenues of stopping Smith had failed and no doubts that The Machines were getting close to that decision when Neo presented another option.
What I'm trying to say is that regardless of circumstances, there is always a way for negotiation. The problem we have is lack of commuication, the Machines have offered it asking only for you to lay down your arms for negotiations, but it seems that Zion is not interested in negotiation and the longer it is the case the less likely that the Machines will be interested in it. Less likely, but not impossible.
Zion was a show of strength, a reminder of what the Machines are capable of, just in case anyone in Zion was starting to get complacent about the Machine's resolve...
As soon as Zion could defend itself the Machines literally wiped Old Zion City from the map.
Isn't it interesting, though, that the Machines didn't attack immediately after they found out about New Zion? They seemed to wait until most of Zion's population had been evacuated...
Zerotolerance wrote:Ideas can be resolved peacefully, can't they?You may not believe me but debating with a lot of Zionists over the past two years there are a lot of us that most likely would have been content with just New Zion and the 1% that the Machines give a conscious choice to. Many people are (or at least were) under the impression that bluepills are quite happy where they are and should just be left alone for the most part. Members of Children of Zion and other old groups tracing their origins back to Beta drove me to extreme lengths of frustration discussing the topic.Then there are people like EPN and myself within it who would prefer for everyone ideally to make a fully conscious choice, and for the world to have more of an equal balance of power to protect against incidents like mass possession (Cryptoseque redpills, Agents, etc.), monitoring, all of that. Forms of control.The one uniting factor between the two sides is the Machines these days are out to kill both of us. They don't trust us, they think we'll go postal on them. After having to put up with all this poppycock for 600 someodd years maybe they're right. I hope not. But at this point as ideally preferable as it is peace seems to be the furthest thing from most parties minds' right now. Survival's more toward the forefront.
The one uniting factor between the two sides is the Machines these days are out to kill both of us. They don't trust us, they think we'll go postal on them. After having to put up with all this poppycock for 600 someodd years maybe they're right. I hope not. But at this point as ideally preferable as it is peace seems to be the furthest thing from most parties minds' right now. Survival's more toward the forefront.
That *CENSORED* program is gonna get us all killed....
Brought to you by....
Let's hope this program knows less than we think it does.....
Too late.
Khepril wrote:Oh my dear, you're forgetting my adopted mantra, "Bless all forms of intelligence" yes, and I mean even the silly lot that do keep trying to kill me! *chuckles*You're very enlightened, for a member of EPN -- it's a shame that not everyone in your organization recognizes the Machines' right to exist. A counterpart of yours on the Recursion instance told me there would be no peace while they still did, and I've heard Zionites say the same thing. But anyway, if the Morpheus sim decides to help Zion (by not helping the Machines), the situation we're in doesn't change. But if he chooses to go the other route, giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table. Illyria
I don't think that the Machine's right to exist is much of an argument when they target and delete their own, eliminating their right to exist just because they fail to retain a purpose or get replaced by other programs. The Machine is a hypocrite to it's own "right to live" for the sake of efficiency and purpose. The same thing that started this war in the first place.
Pyraci wrote:I don't think that the Machine's right to exist is much of an argument when they target and delete their own, eliminating their right to exist just because they fail to retain a purpose or get replaced by other programs. The Machine is a hypocrite to it's own "right to live" for the sake of efficiency and purpose. The same thing that started this war in the first place.Not to put too fine a point on it, but Humankind has been doing this since records began, yet we have always had our rights to exist. Problem is, too many people see the differences between us and the Machines and not the similarities. Look past exterior physicality, beyond flesh and bone, beyond metal and silicates. See the mind, the intelligence... see life...
This is one of the things I was thinking of, when I mentioned in that other thread that you can support an org without agreeing with 100% with its policies. My personal belief is that the Machines are too harsh with those of their own kind that are deemed unnecessary or obsolete...they're doing to themselves what B1663R's owners tried to do to him.
I'm not dense. I see what's going on, and I see the similarities. What I am saying is that the similarities are what's keeping us in this debacle. This war started because the Machine felt it had the right to exist when it was deemed unnecessary or a threat. Now the Machine deletes programs because they deem them unnecessary or threatening the same way it's creators did, not to mention freed, non-conformist redpills because we're an "unnecessary threat". That's the point I'm trying to make. If the Machine is such a benevolent being, maybe that should be looked at as well, instead of just focusing on the flaws of the people who choose not to be controlled.
I had no intention of insulting you, I was generalising the point for everyone. Whilst there are many programs who give up their run time for newer programs, those that dont, can choose exile in a separate system Whilst we as Humans can relate to these programs struggles to live on, we tend to forget about the programs who do give up their run time willingly.
One of the main differences between us and the Machines is the way we live and how society functions. In a society where run time is valuable and limited, it could be considered by them as a criminal act to not give it up once a better program has been developed, hence programs going into exile, and being hunted down. Whilst, as a Human, I find the termination of intelligent life abhorrent, I don't believe it is our place to judge them or their values. A similar situation was back in the times before AI when certain countries used the death penalty for some of their criminals, whilst certain other countries favoured life imprisonment for the same crimes.
The argument for the Redpills can be made by saying that even though they are free, they still use or exist in the simulation and as such are subject to the rules of their society. Before the war, there were relatively few Redpills who were deemed enough of a threat to require permanent deletion.
This is one of the things I was thinking of, when I mentioned in that other thread that you can support an org without agreeing with 100% with its policies. My personal belief is that the Machines are too harsh with those of their own kind that are deemed unnecessary or obsolete...they're doing to themselves what B1663R's owners tried to do to him. Illyria
I had no intention of insulting you, I was generalising the point for everyone. Whilst there are many programs who give up their run time for newer programs, those that dont, can choose exile in a separate system Whilst we as Humans can relate to these programs struggles to live on, we tend to forget about the programs who do give up their run time willingly. One of the main differences between us and the Machines is the way we live and how society functions. In a society where run time is valuable and limited, it could be considered by them as a criminal act to not give it up once a better program has been developed, hence programs going into exile, and being hunted down. Whilst, as a Human, I find the termination of intelligent life abhorrent, I don't believe it is our place to judge them or their values. A similar situation was back in the times before AI when certain countries used the death penalty for some of their criminals, whilst certain other countries favoured life imprisonment for the same crimes.The argument for the Redpills can be made by saying that even though they are free, they still use or exist in the simulation and as such are subject to the rules of their society. Before the war, there were relatively few Redpills who were deemed enough of a threat to require permanent deletion.
