Everytime your machinists friends say it's Zion's fault, I get insulted for saying it's both. Look at my past transmissions and tell me where have I said it's all zion's fault? Open your eyes dear Machinist, if anything learn that from Morpheus. Just because I chose to extend on the reason why it's Machines fault as well, does not make it that I believe it's only their fault.

That may be but keep in mind my argument is that its BOTH sides fault.  Everyone is guilty.  May there be mercy on us all.

Roukan wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Congrats, you're an idiot. It was a war back then.

And it's still a war.  Don't call people names, Roukan.  It doesn't exactly enhance your point.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

 

Illyria

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

 

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

Sphairo87 wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

 

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

 

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people. 

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

So what would you do, if the shoe was on the other foot?  Slap the machines on the wrist for making a secret base hidden from you?  Would you tell them they were bad and put them in the corner?  What exactly would you do if ZION was the controlling body and the machines were the minority?

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Sphairo87 wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

 

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

 

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

Two tears in a bucket is what it is. Even the people born in the Matrix have a choice to reject the system if they subconsciously want out, but the free born who are no less "innocent" don't have that choice. The Machine is more than willing to end their lives all the same if necessary.

- Ezechiel

Roukan wrote:

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people.  " />

Yeah, Zeke. I guess we should have thought about that before we moved to a better hole in the ground, huh? Bad Zion! Bad!

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yeah, Zeke. I guess we should have thought about that before we moved to a better hole in the ground, huh? Bad Zion! Bad!

Oh yeah you got it! You hit it on the head right there! Heaven forbid we all be HUMANS and multiply beyond the walls of Zion and spread out beyond the little hole they've got their shotguns pointed at. But then again all we want to do be warmongers and terrorists because that's all our existence amounts to, supposedly.

Oh yeah you got it! You hit it on the head right there! Heaven forbid we all be HUMANS and multiply beyond the walls of Zion and spread out beyond the little hole they've got their shotguns pointed at. But then again all we want to do be warmongers and terrorists because that's all our existence amounts to, supposedly.

Garu wrote:

Roukan wrote:

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people.  ">

No we haven't we just know that if we disagree with the orgainisation a)We miss out on events b)Some people in the org believe they are leaders of it and what they say is right and no one elses opinion counts. Most people follow this idoits like blind mice

((This, coming from the guy who follows Havocide around as though he hung the moon? Oh, that's rich!

Retro, I know of whom you are referring to, and the fact of the matter is - everyone else is rp-ing this org the way they're supposed to be doing! What you don't seem to be getting is that EPN is supposed to be on the attack in this war! EPN isn't ever going to just sit back and wait to see what's going to happen! Hell, there aren't many Zion factions that aren't fighting, let alone EPN.

You've been preaching peace since day one, but we're supposed to be in a war for Christ's sake! How else would you have everyone RP a war?!?

If, by some slim chance, you are roleplaying that your character is a pacifist and would be preaching peace IC, then I apologize. But then, if that is the case, you're in the wrong org, man.))

Blaming the Machines for everything the Cypherites have done is a bit like blaming parents for everything their adult children have done.  The parents may have been responsible for the creation of that child, but what the child does as an adult is that individual's choice.  And ultimately, most of the destructive acts of the Cypherites have been planned and carried out by humans. 

Perhaps if Zion had stuck to awakening only those who wanted to be awakened, there would have been fewer dissatisfied redpills angry enough at Zion to destroy their ships and pull their crew's jacks while the truce was still in effect.

The Cypherites are hardly what you can conceder an "adult" they are still watched over and cared for by the Machines. It's the parents job to teach there kids and to correct them when they mess up, something the Machines never once have done with the Cypherites. If the Machines had actually done something about Veil, the bombing of the Terra Nova or any other mission that the Cypherites pulled the plugs on a Zionite we wouldn't be in this mess. The Machines are the parents of the child that is the Cypherites and they still are held responsible for there child's actions.

Zion stuck to its side of the bargain and just because a minority of them went outside the bounds doesn't give the Machines to right to attack all of Zion for it. That's as bad as assuming every Muslim is a terrorist or every priest a child molester.