Discussion Thread: Dev Journal 01 - August 24, 2005

NeoXytheril

I really love all of your ideas, Prisoner, but I had a slightly different idea. Instead of just a ZOC around a player, It's more like a ZOI (Zone of Interlock). If a player strays into the ZOI, They are automatically considered to be in interlock with the player that owns the zone. Inside interlock, players can move in a limited way. They can move side to side using the run left/right buttons we already have, causing them to strafe around the other player, and they can move back causing them to disengage from Interlock.

It would require a great deal more animation to do this, as players that are landing a hit against a player that is trying to move backwards out of interlock would become a jumping punch or a flying punch towards them to land. There would now be no need for force combat, resist combat, or any of those things, as players in a certain ranmge are considered to be in close combat, and are able to leave it whenever they wish. Martial artists are just as able to pursue the player and keep them in. Fights can spontaneously break out between one player and four opponents, with different animations depending on the number of opponents, and also allowing for more opponents to join in the fight on either side, allowing for massive brawl type situations which fit very well with team dueling.

Something else I wanted to touch on with the Interlock is when they say that Interlock is going to go much faster. I believe that is a good thing, as in real life, when you are fighting someone and you land a punch, are you going to stand there and wait for them to get back into a fighting stance before hitting them again? No. You're going to hit them again. See, most of my problems with the Interlock system at the moment have to do with the fact that there aren't enough animations for all of the different situations. Say I hit a guy and he staggers a bit from the hit. Why would I wait for him to stand back up before attacking? He's vulnerable. I would attack him while he's staggering for a second trying to find his footing. There could be an animation for me hitting him, and for him recovering his balance first and countering if he wins the roll. There can be animations for trying to kick someone while they're down, while they are staggered or stunned, while they are trying to aim a gun at me, etc. etc. The period between attacks needs to be cut out so that the sequences flow into each other.

The possiblities are even greater against more than one opponent. You could have a player dodge one opponent's attack, and then land a kick to the other square in the jaw. That opponent could then pull a gun out of a holster, only to have the player gram that arm and toss him into the other opponent.

With the large amounts of animations I'm proposing for various situations, and there could even be multiple variations on the same animation, the result is that you will never have a fight that is the same, or at least if you do, it will be at time intervals great enough that you likely wouldn't remember it. Every fight is new and interesting and the player never gets bored. Even if no new content is added (which I desperately hope there is), players wouldn't find the grind of missions to be so boring since they will almost always see something new.

But regardless of what happens or whether its even possible to implement something like this, I know that what the game doesn't need is to get rid of multiperson interlock. What it needs is a way for players to do more than just block the other opponents. Maybe a way of changing opponents on the fly like a hot key. As each opponent enters interlock, they are assigned a hotkey. You hit that hotkey, and your main target changes to that opponent. You can then change you attacks or use special attacks. The other opponents' attacks will be remembered so when their rolls come up, you'll automatically use the attack you chose last, as it's done with the current one on one system.

As far as the other changes in the game go, the Pandora's box seems great, but there are some issues I have with Spy tree. The main problem is that when you are invisible or disguised, you are still visible to other players as what you actually are: a player. When you are invisible, you are the only one who should be able to see you. When you are disguised, you should appear to other players to be an NPC (or another player if it was possible to disguise ourselves as other). Everything should be copied, including name when we are targetted, profile, etc. When I click on myself wearing a Blood Drunk disguise, I should see "You target Blood Drunk" and not "You target Xytheril, the level 28 Error."

If it were up to me, I would get rid of hackers completely, but since it isn't, I think the length for a stun attack should be the the exact length it takes for them to use one of their hacks. Like a "You get one free shot, but after that, you'd better hope they aren't within running distance so you can stun them again." Hackers should be support characters, not uber powerful destroyers-of-all-they-see.

Prisoner

Long Comments III: Hackers

Personally, I never understood the inclusion of the Hacker and Coder branches into the ability tree. I always saw it as a concession to the traditional fantasy-based RPG roles, and to the ‘tradeskilling’ MMOG player contingent. As such, I think they were a decision made in weakness, in not really trusting that the Matrix mythos was a sufficient background for a MMOG.

I feel even more strongly about this as Hackers have proven to be the dominant ability tree both in PvE and PvP settings in MxO.

But they’re here, so let’s take a look at the films and see where actions we might call hacking and coding occur.

The Matrix:
- Trinity is in-Matrix to watch Neo through her laptop. Apparently this is something that can’t be done from the Operator’s chair. It also requires the use of an in-Matrix computer.
- The Agents use a trace program to find Trinity.
- Trinity is obviously back in-Matrix controlling Neo’s PC
- The Agents use a bug to trace Neo’s location.
- Trin, Apoc, Switch use a debugging tool to remove the bug.
- The red and blue pills are obvious examples of code hacks; one initiates a carrier drop for the target so that the Machines disconnect Neo and so that the Neb can trace his location to pick him up; the other is a memory wipe tool.
- Operators put *whatever* they like into Constructs. Dojos, jump simulations, guns, even women in red dresses. These items can translate into the Matrix carried by redpills. Items (e.g., bullets) are not created out of thin air inside the Matrix.
- The Oracle bakes cookies of indeterminate effect (that could be a thread of its own). Code can be embedded into things created through the normal process of the Matrix.
- Trinity brings Neo back to life with a kiss; is this due to her, to him, to his destiny as seen by the Oracle, or did the Oracle have a more direct role in this?
- The One possesses unique abilities to alter time and other physical elements of the Matrix. As we’ll see later, even so there are limits.
- The One directly hacks, and apparently destroys, Agent Smith.
- The One can stop trace programs.

Matrix: Reloaded
- Pocket spaces outside the Matrix exist and can be manipulated.
- The Oracle dispenses more code-pills
- Merv also demonstrates the ability to create code-food, although he uses his for … less altruistic purposes.
- The unplugged Agent Smith can hack anyone in the Matrix and duplicate his personality into them. Neo possesses the unique power to stop this process.
- Embedded in Bane, Agent Smith can operate in the “real world.”
- The power of even the One is limited; bullets can be stopped but a sword at full swing cannot be fully checked.
- Certain Exiles (e.g., the Keymaker) can create items pertaining to their purpose on the fly.
- The One possesses healing power.
- The One exerts power over the “real world” as well as in the Matrix.

Matrix: Revolutions
- Other pocket spaces exist, including pathways between the Machine code-world and the Matrix. The One has no power in at least one of these.
- Certain artifacts may exist; both Merv and Agent Smith desire the Oracle’s Eyes.
- The Oracle again offers code-pills.

More telling than this list (and I’m sure I’ve left off some things) is what’s not on it. Except for the very unique Neo/Smith power to invade and destroy a target, nobody inflicts ‘direct damage’ through Matrix power.

There also exists no fantasy-cleric like healing, except for the unique power of the One; and it only applies with the unique bond between Neo and Trin.

What power there is is manifested through the RSI and is reflected in powers to move, to block or dodge, to punch, to shoot. That’s what I’d like to see Hackers evolve into. Not fantasy wizards who directly ‘zap’ targets, but operatives who have an understanding of the Matrix that allows them to help their allies become more powerful, or lessen the abilities of their opponents. If a MMOG analogy exists, think of EQ shamans, who haste or slow, buff and debuff. Many more possibilities exist with a more free-fire melee system than with the present zero-sum system, so not everything has to be + or – CT or a stun.

If there’s another aspect of hacking, it involves manipulating in-Matrix items, bugs, computers, and relatively mundane things like keys to accomplish tasks. As presently situated MxO has almost zero role for this sort of thing. But since the city zones are being looked at, maybe something can be done here. Not every mission necessarily has to mean punch-and-blast past everything; although as with the early release days, care has to be taken to prevent an easy shortcut from being the path of least resistance.

I’m personally hoping that the Mission system evolves so that Team missions will be the sort of thing where multiple, differing resources are required, rather than at present being the same mission a single Operative might receive. That’s a long-term goal, though.

The animations associated with the Hackers also need serious looking at in any revamp. The waving hands about routine moving blocks is only used by Zion controllers, who are manipulating an interface for doors and for auto-defenses.

It’d be much more in-genre for manipulators of the Matrix to use a martial-arts motif. Since there are plenty of fighting animations from the external arts for the MA types, consider borrowing some chi-gung techniques! Think of Johnny Mnemnonic (the movie), trying to focus to get his mind under control in the hotel bathroom.

There’s plenty of coding. A pill, a cookie, a piece of cake, each have effects on people in the Matrix, with widely differing effects. Abilities are quite obviously loaded and unloaded by Operators. Guns and “anything we need” is created in the Loading Area.

These disposable items (and in part II, I advocated making guns essentially disposable items in line with how they’re treated in the movies) are great for balance. They provide a market for tradeskillers, they’re easily balanced, removed, revamped, improved and (eek) nerfed as needed.

One of the things about the Matrix is the unique clothing style of the various redpills and Exiles. I strongly advocate dissociating the enhancement of clothing from the appearance of that clothing. A + to MCT may only appear on pants, but it should be embeddable in anything from red cowboy pants to generic black slacks. This is something already known by the design team, so no more on that subject.

In my opinions, permanent items ought to be rare. The Matrix films are not about how Neo finds the magic sword which allows him to save humanity; it’s about how he himself has this ability. This is in stark contrast with most fantasy RPGs where a dread or mighty item rules the fate of nations. It also differs from most MMOGs where aside from one’s personal power (level, stats, etc) the goal of the game is to find and accumulate the best swords and armor, or wands and robes.

I can’t think of a better scene to demonstrate this point than Neo’s fight against the many Exiles in Merv’s chateau. It really doesn’t matter to Neo, or to the exiles, whether they’re holding a sword, a spear, an enormous mace, a pair of sai or just sticks. When Neo holds sticks he does Kali-style actions; when he has a sword he hacks and stabs. He isn’t concerned about finding the best weapon in the chateau. When one is no longer useful, he takes another; and when he’s finished he takes none of them with him.

This one’s by far the longest rant of my three, but I think it’s the most important. Apart from the game balance troubles, the Hacker/Coder tree is the one most out of line with the Matrix films and supporting elements (Animatrix, ETM, comics, etc).

I don’t think these three articles are the only way of doing things, nor are they all-encompassing; but I think they present a schema that fits within the Matrix mythos and hopefully will provoke some thoughts in the Seattle studio so that sooner rather than later MxO will not only be fully immersive for players but fun, balanced, popular and of course profitable. SMILEY

esac

I think that this free-fire melee will open the doors to new weapons like the swords that everyone wants. But I don't think that its necessasarily a good thing. I like the interlock system as it is now maybe they could expand it out to make it a multi-lock system like maybe 3 or 4 ppl fighting that would be fine with me. I agree with some of the others on the board as far as I dont want another MMO style of fighting or I would be playing another MMO.

Paragonith

Prisoner, I couldnt agree with you more. The hacker tree as it stands now is so Un-Matrix, that its gotten to the point where i have to literally ignore it mentally. I cannot find a single justifiable reason for its placement in the game. Its distracting, stupid looking, way overpowered, and has no precedence whatsoever in the films.

I was just having this conversation with my faction mates earlier, as I have soloed to level 30, and they were asking me why i went through all the effort of putting in so much work all by myself. (And yes, I have been here since beta) The reason is that every time I see an avatar waving his hands rediculously and then shooting lightening at a player/mob, it makes me want to throw up/start a drug habit...and I would rather play all by myself and try and immerse myself in the game environment I originally, and with every bit of logical expectation, expected.

And yes, maybe thats pathetic, maybe I should just quit playing and move on to another game, but guess what? Im playing this game because its based on certain consistencies between what I saw and loved in the movies. I am more than able to ignore that aspect of the game should i need to and mean no disrespect to any one of any kind. Once again my apologies for any offense this may be causing.

I am also a former SWG player, and Jedi, and can appreciate the well they are here now so theres nothing we can do about it argument. However, even though its the wrong timeline, there are still Jedi in the SW universe, and they do use lightsabers and wield the force, so there is a degree of consistency there.

I am sure that this opinion is going to get flames. But the hacker tree as it stands now needs a complete 100% revamp. I know that there are many players who have dedicated large amounts of time and effort into creating characters based around these skill sets, but frankly, and I am so very sorry, This game is supposed to be set in the Matrix. Why is it that we have players running around with Gaundalf like ablities causing direct damage at range without weapons. Not even Neo does this. Prove me wrong. Oh wait, he does it once that I can think of, to sentinels outside The Matrix, and then promptly falls unconcious.

I am not saying that there shouldnt be a hacker tree. But Prisoner has already discussed the reasons for serious rethinking of this skill set, and I wont bother repeating more than I already have. Players would be more than able to switch thier skill sets to something else, and compensation should definately be dispensed.....but the Hacker tree is an immersion breaking problem, and that frankly, is unacceptable.

Paragonith

Overall though, I am very very excited about the changes mentioned here, and although Im wearing a little bit of skepticism regarding thier implementation, I cant wait to see what we have coming.

Sorry for any spelling errors, bad sentence structure, or shocked eyebalss my comments have caused.

Mord

jacob_mw

i play swg at the moment as well as this right now in mxo the combat really does need to be changed cuz the interlock system now sucks who in their right mind would wait to attack someone who is dazed or staggered. Hopefully they make this game more like the movies.

RainKingX

Can we have an update on this????

Anarcist

yeah I must agree there needs to be an update on this as we have pandoras box and the pill I just want to see this list thined out if anything seeing as we have seen a few of these improvements now.

PhaseMod

And I'm still disappointed that bug fixes are still not a priority. How bad does it have to get?

Anmaja

i don't think hackers are impossible or wierd in the world of the
matrix. true, they didn't exisist in the movies, but that isn't the
biggest problem. i think that if you take a world which is a
simulation, it is entirely possible to damage the simulated people
inside it by adding lines of code. in the movies this didn't happen,
but i guess all factions have been clever and gained enough insight in
the code of the matrix, so they found different ways to manipulate it.
see it as a way of evolving. you will find more and more ways to use
and manipulate the matrix to do what you want.

about the animations: in most concept art of hackers you see them with
some sort of keyboard on their arm, and part of the animation looks
like typing in the air, but with extremely dramatic arm movements added
to it.

verbal

I dont know about the ol melee free fire thing(which but the way is what a range toon roll is), the changes to interlock interms of speed may be welcome but it wont be long till there are long drawn out battles again(which I kind of like)....multi interlock yes would be fine but a nightmare to code for proper dps....I understand a solo player may have trouble taking on 2 to 3 people wilst interlock with someone else but in those instance you should have very slim odds to come out on top...

The interlock I like I love the viceral feel of hitting and the the graphics in it are top rate IMO...I played SWG as a melee toon and not ONCE EVAR before CU or AFTER CU did I go Whoa....on the graphics wilst fighting...I still find my self doing so after playing beta for 5 monthes and then coming back this month

zero0cool

i have read all the moaning about hackers every day i wouldn't mind but i havent heard if somthing is going to happen to knife throwers, i mean they can kill a hacker so easy and plus you don't even no if there near you.

i have been killed by a knife thrower in three moves if that isnt out of balance i dont no what is