Let's talk spy......

**Tytanya_MxO**

Most of the suggestion that mkt is overpowered derives from the ability to spam knives, but that is a bug, not part of the design, and needs to be fixed plain and simple...once it is MKT will most likely be underpowered compared to other classes (we can argue that it *might* be overpowered now but remove the significant buff given by the occasional spammed attack - it can happen by accident - and a very different picture emerges)

The range of knives means the user is very close and once out of stealth very vulnerable. Knives in IL are high powered yeah but no more so than special attacks for MA or gunman and once the IS is gone a spy's tactic attacks are barely strong enough to counter normal health regen. The only other factor that gives spy any real power is ignorance on the part of the enemy, but thats a can of worms in its own right.

Fix the problems and bugs BEFORE there is ANY thought of further balancing to spy.

redalibi · 10/30/2006 05:20:58

it seems like you dunces only have one defense to the argument posed about spies: "hackers beat spies easy".

ok let's all go home, problem solved. hackers can beat spies.

a rock-paper-scissors system is terrible. builds should have advantages over others, but there should be no guaranteed wins. my guess is almost all of you are MKTs and are desperate to keep the system the way it is bc you have a CQ field day with everybody.

who cares if hacker can beat spy? hackers are few and far between these days and they get eaten alive by the numerous gunmen and MAs.

the solution is to give other builds some thrown defense % bonuses so they stand a chance. everytime an MKT interlocks me i'm amazed. I'm an MA, IL should be MY TERRITORY. yet somehow i get riddled with knives by my IL opponent and from the 20 MKTs surrounding me. yes 20 MKTs.

and i'm not being one sided. give spies defense % bonuses they lack. not so much that it's dead even though. make sure builds have advantages over other builds. but don't make it a paper rock scissors game.

right now with hyper sense i get about 45 or so pts of Thrown Defense. That of course isn't going to cut it.

CrazyJun · 10/30/2006 05:29:18

to avoid confusion about the overused phrase "spam knives"

spam knives version 1 (from Ty's point of view) = an ability that is not supposed to do double dmg does double dmg to you (e.g. leg sweep)
---> this is a general bug and not a spy bug and it's around since old combat system

spam knives version 2 = using knives in every round (1st round -> using knife 1, 2nd round -> using knife 2). This is the way it is supposed to be (look at gunman or ma they can fight without using a normal attack), but a MKT can't use specials in every combat round, cause of the reuse timer (maybe i'm wrong, cause i haven't used mkt for a while, but as i can remeber u have to use a normal attack each 4th round).

peace,
CJ

Edit:
redalibi wrote:

who cares if hacker can beat spy? hackers are few and far between these days and they get eaten alive by the numerous gunmen and MAs.

Sorry, but ..... HAHAHAHAHAHHA.
Only true words in this comment - hackers are few. You know the reason? It's not as easy to use and some of the "old" hackers still missing there code shock - IL - LC2 SMILEY

And MAs can beat MKTs even without using state specials, same for gunman (except duelist), but you have to know how to deal with them.

I guess the main problem isn't a 1on1 fight, cause spy are a very strong support class. They can end an ongiong 1on1 fight really quick, but sniper can do that as well.

The Leo

I dont cry for a nerf. I cry for balance. As MA IL by MKT they just trow knifes and overrow all my rolls and abs even with hypersence and 92% mellee accuracy bonus (yea 92%). NOW tell me tht is by design. Some skifes need more dmg while others are overpowered in my oppinion but spam abs is the worst of everything.

**Garu**

Arcanoloth wrote:

Well Garu, it appears you completely ignored the section of my post where it says MA's find it EXTREMELY hard to get MKT's into a state. Let me repeat it to you.

Sorry dude, but since CR2, I've been a Kung Fu Grandmaster, Karate Grandmaster, Duelist, Sniper, Ballista, Destroyer, Upgrade Master, Master Shadow and Master Assassin.

Firstly, if you NEED a state to kill an MKT, then you are a poor MA. I'm just going to be frank (you can be Lindsey). With MA, I only needed Sky-High, Extreme Falling Kick and Machine-gun punch to completely annihilate an opponent. None of them require a state and can easily destroy 2600 health points.

If you're waiting for that magical finisher with a state-required special, then you're wasting time. Not because its hard to state an MKT, but because you're showboating and want a dramatic kill. Get the job done or go home. That simple.

All gunmen have rooting/speed debuffing moves. I've fought plenty of MKT and got away because of Immobilizing Shot and Disabling Shot.

I have 4 50s and I PVP on Vector and Recursion, so I've had my fair share of variety to test on. I've faced incredibly buffed MKTs and lost poorly. I found them later with buffs, and iced them, and vice-versa.

Simply put: Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

FYI: Why do I choose Master Assassin? Because I like it. I've been one since December of 2004 in BETA. Call me old-school, but bulldog still rocks. SMILEY Secondly, I'm machinist, so I tend to see red zergs more often than blue ones.

**Tytanya_MxO**

More important than any ability balancing now is the need to address situations of impromtu or 'natural' pvp, the presence of an extra person on one side or another holds far too much sway over the outcome of battles and this effects every class.

Renzouken

redalibi wrote:

a rock-paper-scissors system is terrible. builds should have advantages over others, but there should be no guaranteed wins. my guess is almost all of you are MKTs and are desperate to keep the system the way it is bc you have a CQ field day with everybody.

the solution is to give other builds some thrown defense % bonuses so they stand a chance. everytime an MKT interlocks me i'm amazed. I'm an MA, IL should be MY TERRITORY. yet somehow i get riddled with knives by my IL opponent and from the 20 MKTs surrounding me. yes 20 MKTs.

Okay, so an ideal situation would be for you to walk into a group of 20 Master Knife Throwers as a Kung Fu Grandmaster, Interlock one and obliterate him without him landing a finger on you and walk away without a scratch huh? Sheesh, first Rifleman, now Master Knife Thrower/Master Assassin. You sound like the typical dude who's just finished grinding to 50 using martial arts, pounding NPC after NPC, that marches into a group of reds at Mara with a big cheesy grin on his meat-ball expecting to do the same to other players. Don't go accusing people of wanting to keep MKT the way it is now because they want to use an overpowered build, when you yourself sound like the only thing you want from MxO is to be untouchable with a martial artist build.

As a spy the maximum Thrown Accuracy I've been able to acquire is 155 points. As a Kung Fu Grandmaster the maximum Melee Accuracy I've managed is 160. A spy can hit you with specials that deal low damage, cost low IS. A martial artist can hit you with specials that cost high IS, deal high damage. I know if I'm faced with taking down a particilar loadout, a good martial artist is the one I'd think twice about, the fight will allways come down to both sides clinging to thier last breath, desperate to get the finishing blow (Just ask a real martial artist like Tonyjaa, Mercio or Xitem from Vector what I mean there)

Aside from heals that deal 700HP every two seconds to every friendly in the area and Interlock Gunmen being underpowered in terms of accuracy IMO, (Aside from when using a Rifle with your build) the system is in great balance. I can honestly say I believe every loadout in the game is enjoyable to play now.

With this system a one vs. one between two players with different loadouts that know thier build inside out is anyone's game, if it's more than one vs. one there's 80% chance that you're taking a dirt nap, the reason MKT is so wideley used is because it is so efficient and "user friedly" when used in a group, "MKT is easy to use, hard to master" but that's a different matter alltogether. It's called the Zerg factor...

**Garu**

Back in CR1, they used to gripe about Riflemen until everyone discovered Dodge Ranged. Prior to that it was hackers until they dumped 20 memory slots in to deflection.

Soon as they discover the secret to surviving knives, it'll be something else. Bet money?

The Leo

Lets be clear on someting. The system is completely different in accuracies of different loads. They are NOT comaparable. U can't compare the lower accuracy spy or hacker has. Y u ask? Because thee isnt anything in lets say MA tree that gives trown defence. NOTHING at all. While spy gets melee defence bonus%. Ever seen hacker complain about low accuracy?

redalibi · 10/30/2006 13:31:25

renzouken you couldn't be further from the truth, and you're a *CENSORED* moron. all you've done is put up straw man arguments against me.

until you play against me, don't say *CENSORED* about my skill. this is cr2 we're talking about anyways....

and i don't know how ppl can deny that there's SOMETHING that makes MKTs overpowered, when at the last all-build tourney i went to (TC's king of the hill), MKTs completely dominated and were pretty much ONLY beaten by other MKTs.

CrazyJun · 10/30/2006 15:28:00

*takes some popcorn and leans back*
Renz, it's your turn.

Well, let's get serious ...... or maybe not.
You know what it is that makes MKT sooooo overpowered - a group of MKTs. Oh, but wait. If gunmen attack you in groups, they'll kill you too .... mmh. Maybe they are overpowered too?

Oh and plz don't get me wrong, but I'm not a MKT (no need to think, "oh another MKT that don't want to see nerfs on his fav tree" SMILEY

.

When talking about ovepowered, do you think it's ok that MAs can daze their opponent and use 2 stat specials? Do you think it's ok that MAs are the only tree that can easily max out viral defense? Do you think it's ok that a MA can kill you with 4 hits (not talking about stat-specials)?
What do you think if everybody unloads his abs and everybody is using "awakened" only? Sounds good to me, or?

BTW - I would use another sig, cause peeps under 18 visiting this forum too SMILEY

peace,
CJ

redalibi · 10/30/2006 17:20:12

my god i'm not saying builds shouldn't have advantages over other builds. i'm saying the game shouldn't be a paper-rock-scissors system where 1 build is completely dominant over a particular other build. it should be player vs player, not build vs build.

and what is so wrong with the word *CENSORED*? *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* i have a *CENSORED* as i'm sure you do.

who wants to join the pen 15 club?

**Tarrega**

redalibi wrote:

and what is so wrong with the word *CENSORED*? *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* i have a *CENSORED* as i'm sure you do.

LMAO! The *censored*'s make it that much funnier.

**Pylat**

Firstly, I was quoting the futility of an MA trying to get an MKT into a state because you, Garu, were trying to use it to justify that MA's were balanced against MKT's. Don't assume anything about the way I PVP. You said MA's have state specials so they are balanced against MKT's. I've said that MA's can't get people into states to use those state specials. THATS why I was saying its an exercise in futility to try for states. Besides, MKT's get Punt/bulldog/Freedom to Joints etc....
And your latest post just rebutted your whole state specials thing anyway, you were saying you may as well not bother. I whole heartedly agree, they only way to fight these days is spam specials.

Secondly, someone was saying something about MA's being rooted, then they free fire the MKT into a state and when the root ends they IL and pwn them. Thats just plain wrong aswell. MKT's (Based on their attributes) will typically have a high ballistic defense. So an MA will have a VERY hard time hitting them. Also, MA's will have only an average ballistic accuracy, free firing in self defense and no bonuses to ballistic accuracy in the MA tree will generally make this so. So assuming the MA is lucky enough to get them into a state, assuming they could hit them, they then have to hope the root ends on time, they then have to hope the MKT's shield is down, they then have to hope the MKT doesn't hit them with another rooting/slowing knife, they then have to hope the MKT hasn't killed them with free fire knives whilst they were shooting them into a state, they then have to hope they hit with the state special cause an MKT will pwn them with a knife spam in IL.
Does it have to be made much more clear to you?

Someone was saying Hackers are great in IL. Well thats just one or maybe two different hacker builds that can do that (I'm talking use Ballista and mix it up with vector/ravager or something else for DOT effects, I am NOT saying there are only TWO specific LO's that can do that. I AM saying that the scope a hacker has to win in IL is limited to whoring accuracy with ballista and stacking DOT's.) So unless you tailor your LO as a hacker to pwn in IL you will get pwnt in IL. People are also saying that hackers can do lots of damage with Low IS costs. Unless you haven't noticed you can ALWAYS have hyper deflect activated, so you always have a fair chance to deflect the attack. You don't have hyper sense activated at all times, so if an MKT gets the jump on you they can punt you for 1500+ dmg and then sink 2 knives into you before you can click on it in your hotbar.

Sorry about these long posts CJ but some people refuse to accept the obvious until its laid out to them..... 500 times.

Do you people even read my posts?

**GypsyJuggler**

Well I could write a big long reply but really I don't have the patience anymore. Many of the people involved in this discussion don't seem likely to give other people's points fair consideration. Renzouken, I hope you have the stamina to deal with these guys, I'm not sure I can be bothered.
I feel that the game is pretty well balanced in most respects. Not perfect, but it's getting there.