Staggering Throw & MKT

**Ballak** · 09/23/2007 10:40:31

I know I'm opening up the hive's nest about complaining about a MKT move, but this has gotten sort of ridiculous.

Stagger Throw Specs:

~Takes around two-three seconds to cast.

~Only used in outside of combat.

~45 IS Cost.

~190 D.P.S. Thrown

~50% Chance Staggered for 12 seconds.

~Have to be either stealthed or in a disguise to use it.

Staggering Throw is probably the most annoying move in the game when used against you. This move has the possibility of hitting at least 1,000 damage (unless you're geared against a MKT which usually means you're weaker in everything else.)

The only "balancing factors" this move has going for it is the fact you have to do the attack in sneak (or disguise) and at close range. In PvP, this move is godlike considering all you have to do is pop a disguise and just wait for the move to go through. Although not so effective in duels because it's a 1 on 1, but in the field it's rather tedious to combat.

"Wait?" Did I say, "Wait"? This move takes all of what, three seconds to go through? FAR takes a good while as well as Sniper Shot. It's even more tedious for them because the time it takes for the ability to go through is well over 5 seconds which gives the target time to hide behind cover or the what not (trust me I hide from FARs all the time). This move is fast and extremely deadly.

What's not balancing about this move? It has NO state requirement. Tell me what ability in this game can hit 1,000ish damage on the average with no state required or buffs/debuffs to a level 50 out of interlock. I sure don't. It's not only that, but this move hits almost about every *CENSORED* time, and it's not only that but it has that chance to stagger which no doubtedly means you're going to be powerlessed in the next few seconds.

The MKT's arguement over this is the fact, "Well just wear resistance and it only does about 500 damage which is pretty poor." while the counter from other player classes is the fact most 'PvP Gear' isn't exactly Thrown Resistance entitled. I even have my own outfits for each resistance. Ballistics/Melee/Viral resistance outfits usually don't have much changing between them, but when it comes to MKT I have most of my entire outfit redone to battle the MKT scourge.

So what do I say about balancing it? The least you could do is either:

#1: Make it longer to go through.

#2: Make the move easier to miss.

Any suggestions, complaints, or comments is welcome.

-EDIT

I decided to go ahead and test the damage with a familiar MKT I know on Syntax, Shickle. To my knowledge Shickle is a MKT who mainly wears resistance clothes/IS Regen with no damage buffs. I am also using my Melee Combat Training load, where accuracy is never a problem thus I tend to wear clothes more centered around resistance.

Here I am with 0 Thrown Resistance. I didn't even bother with a status bonus screenshot because apparently when you have 0 resistance, the stat bonus doesn't even show up.

That's high, but then again I'm wearing 0 Resistance.

Here I am wearing my normal clothes for taking on someone with guns. My thrown resistance is considerably low.

The damage dealt.

Close to 900 damage. Pretty powerful.

Here I am wearing my outfit to fight MA's, which usually gives me around 200 Ballistic + 200 Melee resistance. With some pretty nice Melee Defense.

The damage dealt.

735 is considerably lesser from 1,000. Keep in mind I'm wearing mainly resistance clothes.

Here is me wearing my full anti-MKT gear giving me about over 200 thrown resistance points.

The damage dealt.

645 damage. I had about 150ish resistance in the other specs in trying to get the thrown resistance up that high. I didn't even bother with defense (excluding the Quicksilvers).

What about the classes who can't mainly base themselves around resistances and use mainly accuracy clothes instead? They get pounded from around 1,000 on average.

**Gerik**

Ballak wrote:

I know I'm opening up the hive's nest about complaining about a MKT move, but this has gotten sort of ridiculous.
Staggering Throw is probably the most annoying move in the game when used against you. This move has the possibility of hitting at least 1,000 damage (unless you're geared against a MKT which usually means you're weaker in everything else.)
The only "balancing factors" this move has going for it is the fact you have to do the attack in sneak (or disguise) and at close range. In PvP, this move is godlike considering all you have to do is pop a disguise and just wait for the move to go through. Although not so effective in duels because it's a 1 on 1, but in the field it's rather tedious to combat.
"Wait?" Did I say, "Wait"? This move takes all of what, three seconds to go through? FAR takes a good while as well as Sniper Shot. It's even more tedious for them because the time it takes for the ability to go through is well over 5 seconds which gives the target time to hide behind cover or the what not (trust me I hide from FARs all the time). This move is fast and extremely deadly.
What's not balancing about this move? It has NO state requirement. Tell me what ability in this game can hit 1,000ish damage on the average with no state required or buffs/debuffs to a level 50 out of interlock. I sure don't. It's not only that, but this move hits almost about every *CENSORED* time, and it's not only that but it has that chance to stagger which no doubtedly means you're going to be powerlessed in the next few seconds.
The MKT's arguement over this is the fact, "Well just wear resistance and it only does about 500 damage which is pretty poor." while the counter from other player classes is the fact most 'PvP Gear' isn't exactly Thrown Resistance entitled. I even have my own outfits for each resistance. Ballistics/Melee/Viral resistance outfits usually don't have much changing between them, but when it comes to MKT I have most of my entire outfit redone to battle the MKT scourge.
So what do I say about balancing it? The least you could do is either:
#1: Make it longer to go through.
#2: Make the move easier to miss.
Any suggestions, complaints, or comments is welcome.

Good point.

But what he's saying on clothing against Thrown attacks, I'm kinda pissed that there is no Thrown defense Hosh Chap Pants, yet there's Ballistic, Melee and Viral defense pairs.

**Fractor**

After being a Karate Grandmaster and a Duelist for a long time I decided to try Knife Thrower again since level 30 so I coded the master knife thrower abilities and loaded them up. I tried it out in standard missions and I was quite surprised at how powerful Staggering Throw was, using it with Deadly Throw I could take down an NPC a lot quicker than usual and I didn't even have all the abilities leveled up to max and my stats aren't suited to the spy tree.

**GoDGiVeR**

2 MKTs with Staggering Throw = Goodbye Health
2 MKTs with Staggering Throw + Find Weakness = Death
2 MKTs with Staggering Throw + Find Weakness + UM (since it stacks) = Onslaught

Facing (min.) 2 MKTs in PvP is worst case scenario.

**Pylat**

MKT = Most annoying class, could be something to do with the fact it is also the most overpowered class.

Fix staggering throw and a lot of complaints about MKT will go. Increasing the cast time is a good start.

**Bayamos**

1. If you can't get your resist to ~200 for 3 types then it's your own problem; most of the time you don't face all 4 damage types. A quick switch macro helps a ton.

2. Your testing is subjective based with your resistance as an independent variable but fails to consider the other aspects, ie. whether the other player is MKT or Master Assassin, the effects of the greatly overpowered Overdrive Bandana, whether the other player was buffed with UGM, or if he/she had Find Weakness on. That is a bit high dmg for 200 resist compared to the norm. In addition, every player has the option to load Calm Mind, Calm Body (despite the fact that it's broken and should be fixed, but that's on the devs' plate) so noone should have the excuse that they have low resist.

3. You're talking about an ability without actually considering the nature of hitting someone with it. Quick macro switch and back during pvp every 10 seconds to Watchers Shades + Concealment Countermeasure Tool will take out most stealths near you. If you see them but can't do anything about it... well in 2v1 you're supposed to die. Also, with the addition of the in my opinion overpowered Quicksilver Gloves, you have a good chance to dodge the attack.

The Leo

Didn't I start a thread about this somewhere...

Anyway I agree and I think the best thing to do is only lengthen the timer of the ability somewhat 6-7 seconds. If it's changed much more than that then the balance will tip the other way.

fol

People complain about MKT too much. I think that the percent chances are wrong on two of the knives: Deadly Throw, and Staggering throw. They both seem to state less than they should, seeing the chance is 20%.

Delicho

Bayamo wrote:

1. If you can't get your resist to ~200 for 3 types then it's your own problem; most of the time you don't face all 4 damage types. A quick switch macro helps a ton.

I'm sorry.. what was that?

Are you kidding me? People go out of their way to load up all the styles so you can't defend or tank against them. I call BS.

**Sphairo**

l0ri wrote:

Bayamo wrote:
1. If you can't get your resist to ~200 for 3 types then it's your own problem; most of the time you don't face all 4 damage types. A quick switch macro helps a ton.

I'm sorry.. what was that? Are you kidding me? People go out of their way to load up all the styles so you can't defend or tank against them. I call BS.

He's saying if you take the time to make a clothing macro for thrown you'd suffer less from a MKT, which is true. Personally i've never had any trouble stopping a MKT in PVP by using a couple health pills, mobius, anti's and health boosts, but when you face more than one MKT it does get a little bit rediculous, namely because of the knive abilities stacking (like sever artery and neuro dart and crippling throw and deadly throw etc!) rather than staggering throw. *shrug*

spha x

**GoDGiVeR**

Bayamo wrote:

3. [...] + Concealment Countermeasure Tool will take out most stealths near you. [...]

I just want to add that this thing is broken. Even if it detects sneaking people, it does NOT take their ability to do sneak attacks. Knock someone off their disguise and they'll still be able to Staggering Throw, Punt, Surplex and w/e you. GG son is it then.

**Yasamuu** · 09/16/2007 12:37:16

While stoping MKT's 1v1 isn't as difficult as it is often made out to be, this isn't really about a 1v1 situation. I'd agree with your post, for the most part Ballak. I'm looking at what Shickle is wearing...it doesn't even look particuarly MKT related. (for example, he's missing the 3% damage fedora and is wearing an Area K, we also can't see his shirt) So, with that, it's easy to see that the damage could be a couple of hundred points higher.

Again, I beleive it was Renisis, who made a thread about concealment counter measure not working. They're correct, in that it doesn't work. You can still execute a sneak attack.

The 50% chance for staggered, a little too high. Honestly, I just don't see why we're required to have macro's for clothing etc for MKT's but we don't seem to require them for other classes.

Another issue is that when you start going into using clothing macros, people start calling others out for stacking and such like.

**Ballak**

Yasamuu1 wrote:

While stoping MKT's 1v1 isn't as difficult as it is often made out to be, this isn't really about a 1v1 situation. I'd agree with your post, for the most part Ballak. I'm looking at what Shickle is wearing...it doesn't even look particuarly MKT related. (for example, he's missing the 3% damage fedora and is wearing an Area K, we also can't see his shirt) So, with that, it's easy to see that the damage could be a couple of hundred points higher.
Again, I beleive it was Renisis, who made a thread about concealment counter measure not working. They're correct, in that it doesn't work. You can still execute a sneak attack.
The 50% chance for staggered, a little too high. Honestly, I just don't see why we're required to have macro's for clothing etc for MKT's but we don't seem to require them for other classes.

Indirectly, switching clothes with macros during PvP can cause you to stack. I'm not sure the excuse of, "I was fighting a MKT." is a valid excuse. >_>

**Ballak**

Sphairo wrote:

l0ri wrote:
Bayamo wrote:
1. If you can't get your resist to ~200 for 3 types then it's your own problem; most of the time you don't face all 4 damage types. A quick switch macro helps a ton.

I'm sorry.. what was that? Are you kidding me? People go out of their way to load up all the styles so you can't defend or tank against them. I call BS.

He's saying if you take the time to make a clothing macro for thrown you'd suffer less from a MKT, which is true. Personally i've never had any trouble stopping a MKT in PVP by using a couple health pills, mobius, anti's and health boosts, but when you face more than one MKT it does get a little bit rediculous, namely because of the knive abilities stacking (like sever artery and neuro dart and crippling throw and deadly throw etc!) rather than staggering throw. *shrug*

spha x

Well sure, I can beat pretty much any class with various handicap items. Anti on the cripple, pills and mobius to counter the damage. You shouldn't have to use handicaps to battle any class in the first place. The only reason they're there is to give you a vastly greater advantage over someone who either doesn't use them or doesn't have them. The fact is you shouldn't have to use that to beat MKT. There should be a balance in between the other classes, sort of following the nemesis theme going for it. From what I've seen though, MKTs pretty much outroll everything with their dominant accuracy.

**Sphairo**

Ballak wrote:

Sphairo wrote:
l0ri wrote:
Bayamo wrote:
1. If you can't get your resist to ~200 for 3 types then it's your own problem; most of the time you don't face all 4 damage types. A quick switch macro helps a ton.

I'm sorry.. what was that? Are you kidding me? People go out of their way to load up all the styles so you can't defend or tank against them. I call BS.

He's saying if you take the time to make a clothing macro for thrown you'd suffer less from a MKT, which is true. Personally i've never had any trouble stopping a MKT in PVP by using a couple health pills, mobius, anti's and health boosts, but when you face more than one MKT it does get a little bit rediculous, namely because of the knive abilities stacking (like sever artery and neuro dart and crippling throw and deadly throw etc!) rather than staggering throw. *shrug*

spha x
Well sure, I can beat pretty much any class with various handicap items. Anti on the cripple, pills and mobius to counter the damage. You shouldn't have to use handicaps to battle any class in the first place. The only reason they're there is to give you a vastly greater advantage over someone who either doesn't use them or doesn't have them. The fact is you shouldn't have to use that to beat MKT. There should be a balance in between the other classes, sort of following the nemesis theme going for it. From what I've seen though, MKTs pretty much outroll everything with their dominant accuracy.

It's not really the acc that gets to me, just the above (stacking of throws). It's like having a 2 min root on ya's, even *if* you have on as much movement speed clothing as possible! But definately, they have a ton of acc. The problem could lie in the fact we don't have any abs that give off any thrown defense % bonuses too?