Instead of "nerfing" the spy tree (IMO IS costs compared to dmg is ok, reuse timers are fine - each ranged class can perma-root you), the devs should work on general issues like: Certainly not with one ability we can't, and certainly not for 30 seconds.
The difference, my dear boy, is all the difference.
Arcanoloth wrote:Why load sneak and Logic Cannon when I could just take up MKT like 80% of the other players have and use Punt, which BTW is a whole pile better than a sneak logic cannon. Again, disguises make it far too easy for MKT's to punt people, break shield, root them with a throw, 10 steps back, put a disguise on IN CLEAR VIEW of the opponent run back and punt them from in front of them. I wish I could do that with logic cannon, but instead it has a several second cast timer that gives them plenty of time to take precautions to prevent you from succeeding or to lesson the impact of it. As a matter of fact, in the time it takes me to cast it you could run to a HL and load up the resistance buff in the awakened tree (Clear Mind?) and activate it before I'm finished. You do know what sneak does don't you? Sure LC has a cast timer but if the caster is sneaking you won't know it's coming until they hit you with it. And once they are hit with the LC you appear, that means theres a very angry person baying for your blood, but wait, people always have a high viral defense (due to perma hyper deflect) so it has a far lower success rate than punt, and the extra memory used to put sneak on means you don't have as many hax to use, meaning you are very much less effective than a pure hacker, meaning you had better pray to god that LC hits otherwise you are completely boned And they can hit you at range from any direction So does staggering throw, again this game has very "loose" opinions on what is defined as "behind", plus staggering throw can be used in a disguise, again making it a *poop* load easer to do than a sneak logic cannon. And it works despite evade shields So does staggering throw, which takes far less time to use and result in roughly the same amount of dmg, again, staggering thrown can be used in a disguise so is far easier than a sneak logic cannon. To punt someone it's as you said. First you have to break the shield and hope they don't put it back The 30 second reuse timer on evade shields generally makes this a certainty. Then if you don't root them you have to chase them 2 rooting knives, 2 knives that slow them down, with very short reuse timers and a high accuracy (and they will most likely have a low defense) this is generally assured. Then you disguise right in front of them so they know it's coming Your rooted on the spot and can't run, so what can you do to stop it apart from activate hyper sense and pray?. Then you have to get behind them (more or less) and close enough to enter combat They are rooted on the spot and this game has very "loose" opinions on what "behind" is defined as, as long as your shield is still up all you have to do is run straight at them and keep clicking on the punt button until the game judges you as "Behind" then you punt them, even if your shield isn't up they are still rooted on the spot and you can just hit them with another rooting throw, seeming they are stackable and all, and keep trying. Sounds to me like sneak Cannons are an awful lot less fuss than MKT punts Please read the text in red. Oh, and these are all your words by the way No, you've put words in my mouth, please refrain from doing it again. I've stuck close to your description But you "spun" it to favour your opinion. If you argue now, you're at cross-purposes with yourself O rly?. So yeah Mave.. about that lemonade? The Lemonade is still mine.
Why load sneak and Logic Cannon when I could just take up MKT like 80% of the other players have and use Punt, which BTW is a whole pile better than a sneak logic cannon. Again, disguises make it far too easy for MKT's to punt people, break shield, root them with a throw, 10 steps back, put a disguise on IN CLEAR VIEW of the opponent run back and punt them from in front of them. I wish I could do that with logic cannon, but instead it has a several second cast timer that gives them plenty of time to take precautions to prevent you from succeeding or to lesson the impact of it. As a matter of fact, in the time it takes me to cast it you could run to a HL and load up the resistance buff in the awakened tree (Clear Mind?) and activate it before I'm finished.
Instead of "nerfing" the spy tree (IMO IS costs compared to dmg is ok, reuse timers are fine - each ranged class can perma-root you), the devs should work on general issues like: Certainly not with one ability we can't, and certainly not for 30 seconds.The difference, my dear boy, is all the difference.
And plz, tell me the ONE ability you can perma-root for 30secs. neuro dart reduces speed for 30 secs, but you can still move. you have to stack it with another slowing ab to get an equipollent to root. And that other one lasts for 30 seconds as well
What was the point you were trying to make?
guns = 3 root abs (also with reuse < effect) A single ability, in the SMG tree, has a reuse timer of 10sec and an effect of 12sec. It also has a longer cast timer. It's a far cry from 18sec/30sec.
Do not exaggerate with me. All other roots do not overlap, we have to work to maintain it. Neurodart and Sever Artery, on the other hand, are "set it and forget it", and both overlap 12-15seconds total.
Your original statements were completely fallacious, so you might want to step back. You cannot justify a 30 second effect in the operative tree, and you cannot justify a 12 second overlap (or, a 15 second one, in the case of Sever Artery). Don't even bother to try. In fact, the only tree with problems such as this ability use/effect overlap, is the bloody Spy tree.
Lets go over it, shall we? Poison Knife - 20sec reuse, 25sec effect NeuroDart - 18sec reuse, 30sec effect Backroll Escape - 0sec reuse, 10sec effect Blinding Throw - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Paralyzing Throw - 6sec reuse, 8sec effect Deadly Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Crippling Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Sever Artery - 15sec reuse, 30sec effect Wounding Throw - 10sec reuse, 50sec effect
Lets compare this to ALL abilities elsewhere, shall we? (abilities with chances for effects are ommitted, due to the unlikelyness of an overlap. Abilities which by game design cannot stack (ie: hacker DoT's) are also omitted) Body Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Disarming Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Supression Fire - 10sec reuse, 12sec effect Guard Breaker - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Slow - 8sec reuse, 28sec effect Miasma 2.0 - 28sec reuse, 45sec effect Crash - 15 sec reuse, 28-42sec effect Code Flux - 30sec reuse, 60sec effect
Anyone else see the problem here, or do I have to start weilding a sledgehammer to get my point across? NINE abilities in the MKT stack their effects, versus EIGHT in all other trees combined.
Very good breakdown Sneaker. Those are irrefutable facts that cannot be challenged. I see it shut alot of people up since you posted that yesterday.
Poison Knife - 20sec reuse, 25sec effect Don't use. NeuroDart - 18sec reuse, 30sec effect Sometimes. Backroll Escape - 0sec reuse, 10sec effect Don't use. Blinding Throw - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Don't use. Paralyzing Throw - 6sec reuse, 8sec effect Sparingly. Sucks up too much IS. Deadly Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Definitely. Crippling Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Definitely. Sever Artery - 15sec reuse, 30sec effect Too long of a casting time = Pointless. Wounding Throw - 10sec reuse, 50sec effect Too weak to make a difference.
I'm not saying they're all extensively used. Some are, certainly, but that's not the point.
The point is that many abilities in the Spy tree (apologies, I keep interchanging "Spy" and "MKT" were clearly overlooked, and remain unbalanced to CR2 standards. The comparison to overlapped abilities in the Spy tree and every other ability in the game is, well, quite startling.
TheLeo: I included all abilities I could find in which an overlap occured. Those with the same reuse and effect timer (ie: 8sec reuse, 8sec effect) were omitted due to the use timer cancelling out any overlap. Abilities with a chance for effect were omitted, due to the unlikelyness of an overlap. And hacker DoT's, which by game design cannot stack (last I checked) were omitted as well. And I omitted self-buffs, since I don't really care if you can keep yourself perma-buffed. Anything else was in: damaging, passive debuff, etc.
Indeed, though, all but one of the abilities I listed in non-Spy trees that actually do damage are very low-level abilities anyways. Supression Fire, Slow, and Crash are the only three that are really comparable to the problems in the Spy tree.
Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy. MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.
Also, neither of the Hacker stats affect their Ballistic Damage or Accuracy for freefire. They rely solely on their hacks for efficiency.
Shut down a MKT's sneak attack and there's no need to gripe about how overpowered they are. I think most people just go nuts when they realize they get punted for 1700 damage and feel that it's the end of the world against MKT's. Remove that 1700 damage and you're dealing with perfectly normal attacks of between 200-400 damage. Last I checked, DPE does between 350-500 and Deadly Throw only does somewhere around 250-325.
good necro of an old thread. all the things these ppl are talking about are from the fall season of 2006. way to pay attention, duh. lock this thread =D
your contribution has been duly noted. welcome to october 2006. lock this thread..
