One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

**Sephiroth+X**

If there's one thing that seems like lots of people on my server are starting to complain about, is that lots of special moves are getting outrolled by your basic Speed or Power tactic moves. Me and a few other people of mixed trees dueled each other for a while and we all noticed that our best abilities just wouldnt work against each other like Wrist Throw, Dual Pistol Dash, etc, etc, etc. But lesser moves like Sidekick Combo and Pistol Aerial are outrolling just about everything thrown at them including the higher level 'Grandmaster' moves from each respective tree.

Now this might just be me, but shouldnt it seem logical that the Grandmaster caliber moves like Extreme Falling Kick should be outrolling the Master caliber moves like Sky High Sidekick? One whole reason to level up is so you can get stronger and use said Grandmaster moves, not so you can stick with the mid level 20 moves for the rest of eternity.

I myself have gone and tested this potential problem amongst a few other tree's I have outside of MA and it seems to be the same across the board were lesser tier moves are outrolling the high tier moves, and basic tactic moves are even outrolling these moves and occasionally even Status-Required moves.

Now being an MA from Pre-Revamp, one thing I was taught was that basically if you interlock the first move you mash was SideKick Combo since it would outrol every move 90% of the time. Right now it's honestly starting to become the same thing again and I think this might wanna get looked into.

**SureShot187**

Yes, I agree with you on the higher level abilities being outrolled about 80% of the time vs basic speed / power attacks. I was thinking this could be by design cause if you land say an extreme falling kick with a hit rate of 75% vs basic speed / power attacks, the fights would not last long. Plus it's harder to land a "harder" technique such as the grandmaster techniques vs. other grandmasters. So when you think about it, it really makes sense to me the way it is now. Notice how much easier it is to land the higher level techniques vs. level 48 and lower character because they don't have the grandmaster tree fully loaded. They may have a few grandmaster moves to use, but until they reach level 50, they are not a true grandmaster. That's the way I feel about it. U risk missing with a big damage move and being countered with a simple move that does not so much damage. However if u do land the big one, don't keep trying to land it again over and over. You will more than likely lose to somebody using regular moves to put you in a state.

PoneBizkit

What is your vitality at?

GrimteSv

The lower-level karate moves always had that kind of role, but personally i would like some timers set on abilities.

I seriously don't like it when i see more "special" moves in combat than normal ones, and karate needs more accuracy too.. can barley hit any player with the base karate attack, i swear.

**Renesis13B**

Specials dont roll any higher than a regular attack like speed, power or grab so theres no reason why one would be more successful than the next. There isnt a bonus applied to specials. Most of the dev responses ive seen about threads like this is you need to test this 1000 times before you can get an accurate measurement.

What makes specials "special" are the different states they create like powerless or stun and the amount of damage they can do compared to a regular attack.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-21-2006 10:01 PM
Message edited by Renesis13B on 04/21/2006 18:01:25.

shadows_of_pain

Dude i know what you mean about the karate. Im always having to use my specials moves....never getting any states and then i run outa IS and im pwned.

**CHRIS2005yeah**

he he. You wouldn't happen to be fighting Kung fu GM's by any chance? You should look at the basic buffs of a particular style, this includes guns and hackers and so on and so on. Kung fu is more accurate than karate, so more often than not you will be hit by them, however, when you do hit Karate GM's will cause more damage. This works for other trees too, but I've only just woken up and can't be bothered (sorry peeps). cya all jacked in :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by CHRIS2005yeah on 04-22-2006 12:12 AM
Message edited by CHRIS2005yeah on 04/21/2006 23:12:12.

**deLeon**

Dang it, I just wrote a long post about this but that dang bug came back!!!! So I kept it short and sweet.

I for one have to disagree, KFGM, doesn not give higher acuuracy rolls, what it does gime is a bonus on defensive rolls. So if you are combat roll is not higher then the defensive roll, then you will loose.

GrimteSv

I don't know, i use martial arts prowess, power tactic and karate/karate gm buff to do insane dmg. I can wipe through kungfu pretty easily.

Anyhow, the special thing about specials is that they cut off the oponent's ability to land a hit on you for that round so instead of both players getting an attack and defense roll, one player lands a very strong attack and the other one gets to do nothing until the next round... To top it off they do more damage than other attacks and their states are useful too.

**Rexxhavukk**

There is now more to combat than spamming specials........... which is a real good thing!

GrimteSv

No, i remember someone saying that abilities still beat all and from my experience, interlock is definetly all about spamming abilities.

Cal

A couple of corrections:

- Initiative (Influenced by Vitality) only matters when it's Special vs. Special, the rough way to think of it is:

Accuracy + Initiative versus the other guy's Accuracy + Initiative

For a special versus a normal move or a regular attack versus another regular attack it's your Accuracy versus their Defense (both checks happen during one IL round, meaning two misses, two hits, or one of each are possible).

- The other misconception (that I as well had for sometime in testing) is that by saying Zero-Sum combat, a Special will always win. That's not the case, it's just in the case of a special versus another special, only one special will go through. Now, do specials have some Accuracy bonuses on them (as they did before), maybe, but we'd need to test that.

The correct phrase would be: When two specials are used in the same round, you have Zero-Sum, one will miss, one will hit.

Message Edited by Cal on 04-22-2006 04:39 PM
Message edited by Cal on 04/22/2006 15:39:49.

**Renesis13B**

Specials have no extra accuracy bonuses applied to them. The devs confirmed this a while back when ep was still up.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-22-2006 11:29 PM
Message edited by Renesis13B on 04/22/2006 19:29:02.

Cal

Renesis13B wrote:
Specials have no extra accuracy bonuses applied to them. The devs confirmed this a while back when ep was still up.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-22-2006 11:29 PM

Yeah, it's just through Initiative, which we don't know if it's a 1-to-1 relationship with Accuracy and Defense (thank you no combat information).

cryshal

i thought special vs special was decided strictly by initiative.. now that i think about it im not 100% sure of that. we all know that its involved with specials but i suppose the bottom line is, we just dont know precisely how =)