Spies don't face right

**GypsyJuggler**

An important part of this problem is our ability to run through other RSI's. Since our avatars are not concrete objects in the game world, no matter how the alter the sight arc a Spy will still be able to run right through you to get to the place they need to be. It's a tricky one though, we're ghostlike for a reason and changing that would create all kinds of problems.
That being said, I tend to agree with the points Sneaker and Tytanya have made above. Spies have an unfair advantage involving elements like disguise, sight arc and sneak attack range. Finding a viable solution that doesn't seriously weaken the class however is going to be rather difficult.

Zacarias · 03/04/2007 19:50:08

Sneaker wrote:

I'm of the opinion that Disguise was never designed with PvP in mind; only PvE. Running through mission areas undetected and whatnot.
Because, really: an unbreakable form of stealth? Guh?!
Kinda defeats the purpose of "stealth" when a Spy in a Disguise comes running at you in the middle of a battlefield.
I don't have a rock-solid position on this, as it's really only supported by other forms of stealth and my own opinion of fairness in MxO. I've always seen Punts, Suplex's, etc as Stealth moves that require setup, much like a Sniper Shot, and not simply some silly Disguise whenever you feel like it.

Unbreakable form of stealth? Since when?
I can guarantee that disguise is not an "unbreakable form of stealth".
However, I can see why a lot of players would think this since I have yet to see anyone besides myself, using the concealment detection tool to break disguises in PvP on Recursion and Vector.

Also, using a stealth attack with disguise does indeed require a setup. Spies cannot just punt someone with disguise whenever they feel like it.

**Sneaker**

Unbreakable form of stealth? Since when?
I can guarantee that disguise is not an "unbreakable form of stealth".
I shoot you. Disguise doesn't break, unlike all other forms of stealth.

How is this not clear, exactly?

It's not really stealthy when it's in plain view. Pretty much my point in its entirety.

Spies cannot just punt someone with disguise whenever they feel like it.
Yeah, you really can, especially since shields are 2-hit breaks these days.

**GypsyJuggler**

Erg Sneaker.. you probably know this but I have to point out that while the essence of those comments is true, specifically they're wrong.
I don't know why others don't but I for one always take Detection and the appropriate tool into PvP for the sake of defusing a Spy before they can strike. It works on Disguises and only costs one Memory point. I have to concede though that Disguise does seem to be a rather simple and powerful tool in PvP - acting more like a Semi-Shadow than an actual 'stealth' technique. But yeah, it can be broken.
Risking the attempt to break someone's shield manually, or taking the time to use a jammer can seriously take the wind out of a Spy's sails. The reason they seem to have a field day punting at will is because they can afford to sneak around picking the one target out of a group who doesn't happen to have a shield active. It can be stopped - keep your shield up, and if it goes down you can run, hide, detect, jump or whatever. Or on the other hand the spy can be aided by a team, in which case things are going to get seriously more dangerous - but that's the advantage of good teamwork.

**Sneaker**

You can take my point all out of context all you want, it doesn't make it invalid.

I'm talking about shooting someone stealthed via a Disguise when I say "Unbreakable". And I'm also saying that Stealth in plain view isn't really Stealth at all.

You can say Concealment Countermeasures will turn Disguise off. Okay, sure. You can also say that eventually the timer will run out. Yeah, cool. I'm aware of these things.

But, they're also not what I'm talking about.

(For the record:
-Concealment Countermeasures is a whopping 6m radius, almost nothing on a laggy MxO server with a Disguised Spy running at you with all his speed buffs.
-The lengthy effect timer on a levelled Disguise, combined with nearly no re-use timer, makes it nearly irrelevant.)

Course, this Disguise issue might end up disappearing all together with Update 50. Right now, with the plethora of MKT's lurking around, it's real noticable.

**Roukan**

Sneaker when you get ingame next can you help me test a bug?

**Tytanya_MxO**

The difference with other stealth types and disguise is that there isn't a diguise anywhere that would fool any player, You know exactly who and where a disguised character is at all times - if a disguise broke on damage then the whole ability would be rendered redundant. I'm all for changing the way disguise works but it has to be resistant to damage unless a method of genuinely trying to trick a foe into thinking you are someone or something you are not can be achieved......personally I would like to see players being given an intutition style ability that allows them to penetrate disguises and remove the timer currently in use, a disguise remains in place until the opponent sees through it in effect as a mirror to reality - or maybe the proximity of a red begins the decay of the disguise so that they have to act quickly to get any attack in?

I am sure 90% of the spies facing which way for stealth attacks is the result of relative lag and as such may always 'appear' to be the case =/

**Renesis13B**

Disguise has many advantages over sneak including being able to jump, no speed debuffs and damage doesnt interrupt it. The disadvantages being you can obviously see the person using it and its on a timer so you have to constantly reapply it. Having to use a tool to break disguise is annoying but at least the option is there.

**Pylat**

Lets all sit back, take a deep breath, and 2 weeks after Update 50 goes live revisit this thread ok?

We aren't sure how much of an effect this update is going to have, so we need to just be patient.

As much as I want to see Spies accuracy reduced aswell (Seeming it is *CENSORED* insanely high now) I'm going to wait till after the update to see if it is necessary.

**Sneaker**

Agreed, Arc. I'm quite curious to see a post-Update 50 world.

But, my opinion on Disguise was asked, and I just can't resist a good rant SMILEY