Code Infection "fix" cannot be correct (Please Read)

IgnitionX

While Im not denying that there was a problem maybe with the math in
code infection I must say that the "fix" that was implemented Wed.
CANNOT be correct.

Why? Because Static Field a level 10 ability now does more or around
the same damage as Code Infection 4 which is a level 44 ability.
Overclock both and you get the same results against another level 50
with moderate Viral res.

This cant be working as intended................ A level 44 ability
which is the basis of the ravager tree doing the same damage output as
a
level 10 ability which is the weakest of all viral damage.

How could this possibly be possible?

This renders the Ravager tree completly USELESS.

Something is terribly wrong here and I sincerily hope that someone will look into this.

Message Edited by IgnitionX on 04-28-2006 03:29 AM
Message edited by IgnitionX on 04/28/2006 02:29:53.

Jilted1

this is the result of whiners that are afraid to be killed by hackers. remember if they had their way the hacker tree would entirely be gone. So Hacker takes nerf after nerf till finally it's pintles to even have those abilities at all. All the while there are abilities in the operative tree doing 1500+ damage in less than 4 secs, and only 3 items in game that boost max helath. ? ? ? uhmm

of the hacker

**Renesis13B**

Those abilities require states to work. I guess hackers wouldnt know anything about that.

Jilted_1 wrote:
this is the result of whiners that are afraid to be killed by hackers. remember if they had their way the hacker tree would entirely be gone. So Hacker takes nerf after nerf till finally it's pintles to even have those abilities at all. All the while there are abilities in the operative tree doing 1500+ damage in less than 4 secs, and only 3 items in game that boost max helath. ? ? ? uhmm

cryshal

renesis thinks hes clever, doesnt he..

actually, funny-man, us hackers know all about states. we're intimately familiar with op loadouts throwing powerless on us ALL the damm time which renders us unable to cause damage at all, since all our moves, stupidly, are specials. this anti hacker thing really has to be dealt with in the form of a big fat +700 health added to all TOP level (lvl 50) hacker title upgrades. i think that would even things up in an entertaining way =D

LiquidZ

Actually it is more of a problem of the other abilities that don't require states in my opinion..

There are MA moves that require no special states that cause 800 - 1000 damage. IF the target has very high resist these drop down to around 500 or so... but still...

anyway that is off topic and let us avoid it.

Code infection should do more damage than it currently does.

a simple 50 dmg every few seconds does the trick very nicely. It puts a hurting on players who are not careful enough to pay attention to themselfs. Anyone can pop an anti to remove the thing, or get a patcher to sweep you...

**kaosdevil**

Truth overall is even as a hacker i like cr 2.0 i can still pwn with it BUT.... when they just did that downgrade on ravager that was the last straw... oh not only after the first massive nurf they do they diside **bleep** it lets decrease the damage on that and make a low level abilty stronger how smart are we .... haha If you can beat hackers now ur complete **bleep** ma's,throwers and gunners... really ur crap because all the moaning groaning "oh no hacker help i cant fight them im a **bleep**" people got what they wanted... Even the top hackers like, me,ignition,2soon2late and many many more not to mention half the hackers that left the game because of the extra nurfs they keep putting in on the hacker tree... **bleep**... even Walrus got beat by the hacker tree by someone called - Darbacour back in the beta one of the best hackers of all time Tbone is probally famiular with her if im not mistaken. Anyway I'm gonna stick with the Hacker tree for now but i tell u what.... If u Dev's dont sort this out and the moaners stop moaning cause there crap at the game then the server will be on a - Low all the time... Think of hacker as a drug... fix it or im gone.

cryshal

hackers union, coming to a server near you.

NOW look what you did.

**nephillim**

I remember that fight where Darbacour beat Walrus. She rooted, blinded him, and bam bam bam dead. Sucks to be an MA back then. Now though, I see so many problems with the hacker tree that I think my eyes are gonig to bleed. First off, does the Network Attacker tree have any purpose past script kiddie? I see all of these melee and ballistic damage and accuracy bonuses on its lv 33 ability but if I recall, 13% or so to an attack that's going to do 1 damage really won't matter. The ravager ability was horribly downgraded as well. Ravager was the last threat to MA's. But honestly, if an MA knows even half of what they are supposed to be doing, they can topple a hacker no problem with an ability like that. I see a few more abilities on the hacker tree that I would put a few 100 mil on being nerfed next month but i'm not going to mention them in fear that a Dev will actually pay attention to this thread and have an F'ed sense of humor- thus speeding up the hacker crapification process. Yeah though....

Hacker union unite!

IgnitionX

Apparently, the questioning of why a level 10 ability now does more
damage than a level 44 ability doesnt need to be addressed.

I was really hoping to get a "red name" in here to say "Hey, we will
look into this" or "Ill pass this information off to the Dev team"

Guess not :smileysad:

Im not suprised................ after all Im a hacker and get no love.

Cal

All Over Time abilities are acting a little strangly now as DoTs are doing absolute trash for damage and the Emergency Repairs are doing less then they're stated, by a decent margin.

Did some testing with Emergency Repairs 1.0 just now and it's actually less borked then it first appeared.

Also, here's some other stats:

Launch Time = 2s (same as the single target heals)

Duration = 15s

# of Ticks = 5 (it doesn't tick as soon as it lands, but waits 2.5s for the first tick, which will be quite important later)

First off, the tooltip when activated is off when you first look at it (full screenshot).

Taking the 14 number and plugging it in as HPS into the Healing formula (for my stats) you get...

((HPS * (1 + Healing Bonus %) + Healing) * Launch Time * (1 + Damage Percent)

((14 HPS * (1 + 55% Healing Bonus)) + 41 Healing) * 2s Launch Time = 124

(Note: Decimals are truncated at every calculation.)

This works pretty consistantly across different bonus values (on the tooltip). Also of interest is that using Power or Grab has no affect on the amount actually healed (or the buff's tooltip), this is of course not true for other heals.

Understanding that and assuming it's a simple typo of "Heals X every 2.5s" instead of "Heals X over 15s."... it's still off by at least a tick. I couldn't change my Healing Bonus too much (from 50% to 75% in 5% increments) so I couldn't get a lot of testing in, but it comes really, really close if you add in that extra tick.

At another set of stats...

Heals for 200 over 15s. (For the assumed correct tooltip.)

Healed 33 health 5 times.

33 * 5 = 165
+ our missing initial tick of 33 = 198

That's really close to the tooltip.

Also, when I was looking over the DoT abilities, the tooltips are in that "Does X over Y sec." format that leads me to believe that that's what the HoT tooltips should be.

The same rules apply to the DoTs (missing an initial tick and such).

To begin with, they could gain a 16.67% boost in damaeg if they just got that initial tick, and would at least do some damage if it got removed inside of 5 seconds.

Now of course, to look at the abilities in comparion to their Ballista counterparts, you see that there's actually a solid ratio between the DPS values between Code Infections 1.0-3.0 and Logic Blast 2.0/3.0 / Barrage 3.0 (the IS values are indentical between all four abilities).

CI 1.0 : LBlast 2.0
CI 2.0 : LBarrage 3.0
CI 3.0 : LBlast 3.0

... are all around 1.5 : 1, probably to account for the fact they can get removed.

CI 4.0 gets the short end of the stick with a DPS ratio between it and Logic Barrage 4.0 of only 1.37 to 1. So, to bring it up to snuff, CI4.0 should get a DPS around 94.

Sound cool... maybe?

**broin**

Okay yeah I just typed up a long message in detail about this but since it took me so long the **bleep** thing wouldn't post... So now your getting the abbreviated post. I agree with IgnitionX there is no way a lvl 10 ability should even be close to the lvl 44 ability. I did some testing tonight and here are some results

I tested on lvl 41 single chevron npc's in Creston Heights. Code Infection 4.0 did 64 damage while Infect Area 2.0 did 51 damage. Code Infection 4.0 is described to do 88 viral damage to selected target for 30 seconds. Infect Area 2.0 is described to do 63 damage to targets within 5 meters of selected target. Now if you ask me the damage between these two abilities is to close and they both have the same casting time of about 3 seconds. Now the Hacker Haterz will say NERF Infect Area 2.0, but what needs to happen is Code Infection 4.0 needs to be fixed. Another thing as I have previously stated in another thread why are these damage over time abiliteis AOE and single traget not stackable. If everything is DPS then wha'ts the problem?

And how about this one all of the percentage buffs to up stun duration are in the Destroyer tree. What is that? Stun isn't in that tree or in the Howitzer tree that is a direct offshot of the Destroyer tree.

Howitzer tree you ask...? Don't get me started on that. Can someone tell me why there is a debuff radius bonus and a viral radius bonus. Are you telling me that to up the radius on my AOE debuffs I have to go for debuff radius and to up my radius on my AOE viral damage abilities I have to up my Viral radius bonus? What is that... The radius bonus is to **bleep** small as it is and tjhe debuff states don't last worth crap now, you are going to kick it down more by making me choose between my viral damage radius or viral debuff radius. Come on. If I have a 30% radius bonus on a 6 meter AOE then that would give me... What? A total of 1.8 meter bonus.... Which from what I see is rounded down to 1 meter. So for 30% bonus I get a lousy 1 meter? But hey I can kill Aikido, Kungfu, and Karate Grandmasters in Interlock fairly easy now.... What the hell is that? Come on guys put hackers back to the support class they need to be. A hacker in interlock should be like a fish out of water. No way I should be able to touch these grandmasters, and hell I don't touch them.... Easily 6 times out of 10 I can kill them one on one in interlock. Up the debuff duration rate a bit more, up the damage of some of the hacks a bit, give a better bonus for AOE radius, and make it so we don't stand a chance in interlock. That's the way it should be. At best we should have an ability like Escape and Evasion, but with a long reuse timer or huge IS drain, that will give us a one time out during an extended battle.

There was alot more in the last post and much more detailed but I ain't gonna risk losing another post so here is this one...

Oh yeah and what's the deal with the upgrade AOE's and Healing AOE's.... Is physics of 6 meters for those abilities not the same as the physics for the 6 meters on the AOE debuffs and AOE hacks? Is it me or are these guys throwing out base 6 meter hacks twice as far as base 6 meter debuffs or viral damabe hacks? Hell you get a couple of healers in a group... And I'm just talking about MA's that have the base heals like restore group 1.0 or group repairs 1.0 and you can just give up on taking them down without overwhelming odds. Hey and why are those low level heal radius so much higher than the low level damage radius abilities? Or even the higher ones for that mattter... Group Repairs 3.0 (doint Healing HPS 30) is 5 meters while restore group 3.0 (Doing Healing HPS 32) is 7 meters compared to logic bomb 2.0 (Doing Viral DPS 23) 4 meters and code nuke 3.0 (Doing Viral DPS 25) at 6 meters. I mean just look at that the higher heal has a higher radius, and the cast time for both heals are the same about 5 seconds (also the same casting time for the logic bomb 2.0 and code nuke 3.0) I mean come on what's up with this stuff?

Message Edited by broin on 05-07-2006 01:02 AM
Message edited by broin on 05/07/2006 00:02:10.

Cal

Ok, I'll go point by point:

Code Infections take 2s to launch, I'm not sure about Infect Area, but I'll guess it's 4s just like the Howitzer attacks and TS heals. So yes, it would be doing more damaage/tick since it takes twice as long to launch.

I would agree, Code Infections and Infect Areas/Plauge Zones probably should stack, the highest one from each. But, you also have to remember that Negative Condition Sweep and Sweep Party no longer stack, so that's probably why it's the same for the DoTs.

Destoryer has two big Stuns, Area Disruption and Devastation Field.

The Debuff Area Radius and Virus Area Radius seems to be just left-overs or partial conversion from the old combat system. Same thing's going on in Team Patcher. Still, radius for Viros does seem kinda borked at the moment (will have to test to confirm that though).

On the subject of heals, Patcher's two best in-IL heals are Restore Group 2.0 (Corpsman) and Group Heal 1.0 (Force Enhancer), and both are centered on yourself. The Group Repairs line is horribly IS ineffecient compared to RG/GH (probably to make up for the fact you can center it on someone else). Also, the DPS/HPS relationship is nearly the same between Howitzer/Trauma Surgeon and Ballisita/Physician, so I think the heals are meant to be "stronger" in the first place, that and they aren't affected by armor.

In terms of Viros being "support" I really don't agree with that. In the old combat system, states were supremely important, so getting CCed (through Stun, Powerless, Root, etc.) and then dieing before the CC wore off was very annoying (although all loadouts had it, not just Viros). Now, debuffs last a decent amount of time, and hard CC has had its role diminished (but can be improved through specialization in a particular CC).

Now, combat is significantly more damage-centric and since a lot of people enjoy the Operative trees (and both Patcher and Viro have an undue stigma against them), the current measuring pole is of course through what you can do compared to them. People see that 1k damage Dual Pistol Point Blank or see 150 DPS on Full Auto Redux and wonder why their tree isn't doing that.

What I feel they fail to realize is:

A lot of those moves require states (that only another Operative can give, since Hackers can't really free-fire and launch abilities at the same time ), that unless you're using Free-Fire MA, are kinda rare in small fights.

When depending on states for damage, you need to devote a lot of memory to achieve a roulette build (a build that has at least one special requiring each state), with the exception of Kung Fu which specilizes in that versitility. These points can be spent by a Hacker a lot more freely.

When relying on big damage, you'll also run across big misses. If you miss that Sniper Shot, or Pistol Whip, you're kinda screwed.

A lot of them require Interlock, while just about every attack is "Anytime." (although most debuffs need to be done outside of IL).

Their cooldown timers are on the long side (relative to Viro).

Beacuse their specials have such high DPS values, the relative return they get from the Damage buffs (Find Weakness, Firearms Skill, MA Prowess) is a lot smaller then for a Viro.

And most importantly of all, their non-state requiring moves have terrible, terrible IS effeciency.

While a Viro can play a gimpy Spy with Code Shock, or a ghetto Operative with Logic Cannons, burst DPS is not what Hackers are designed around at all.

To put it simply since this got on sort of the long side, as a Patcher, I can outheal burst DPS, I really could care less about it since I know an Operative can't follow it up and if he tries he simply runs out of IS. What worries me the most is Viro's slow, consistant damage that I really can't outheal very well, the fact that they have a ton of debuffs that I know I need to Sweep off my guys before they get mowed down. That, and I know they can go toe-to-toe with me for IS effeciency.

Also, someone made a complaint about Powerless, which I agree, blows when it hits at the exact wrong time for you (like right when I'm in mid-heal launch). But still, missing out on a couple of Hack loops is a lot less devastating then missing out on the only Off-Balance you're going to see for the next few minutes SMILEY

.

Hacker and Operative are the tortoise and the hare... and a lot of people love being the bunny rabbit, but he always loses to the tortoise.

cryshal

the above two posts were both well thought out, and reasonably clever.

unfortunately, especially in the case of cal's post, there are a few glaring errors.. for once i wont bother bashing the usual anti hacker-stigma, instead ill try something different.

the reason why hacker gets nerfed so much (other than wimpy devs bowing down to whining 17 yr olds who think theyre neo) is miseducation. hacker is NOT god. but ppl THINK it is, or at least was. for example, the guy above me, probly another vector player, thinks dev field still has a stun. nope, sorry. we were nerfed far too much for that =D

back on topic, more or less.. abs should do dmg more or less in line with their level. something further down the tree should do decent dmg, considering all the mem points you had to use to get there.

Cal

cryshal wrote:
the reason why hacker gets nerfed so much (other than wimpy devs bowing down to whining 17 yr olds who think theyre neo) is miseducation. hacker is NOT god. but ppl THINK it is, or at least was. for example, the guy above me, probly another vector player, thinks dev field still has a stun. nope, sorry. we were nerfed far too much for that =D

back on topic, more or less.. abs should do dmg more or less in line with their level. something further down the tree should do decent dmg, considering all the mem points you had to use to get there.

Dev Field does Stun, rarely, but it does. What they removed where the Stuns on the Code Nukes and Logic Bombs.

Also, I don't really feel that higher level abilities should always do more damage. If you look at Leg Throw and Dazzling Throw, Dazzling does less damage although it is a higher level ability, but Daze is more useful to a lot of loadouts then Off-Balance is, so it balances out Dazzling's lower damage.

Outside of Spy's Leg/Dazzling/Staggering Throws or when you're comparing two abilities with different Launch Times (like area Hacks versus single-target ones), I'm not sure if I recall any abilities that have a lot lower damages even if they're higher level without gaining something extra to make up for it.

cryshal

thats interesting. maybe thats a bug tho, i recall the devs saying dev field was removed as part of the overall "balancing" of hacker abs.. i myself have never scored stun with dev field since cr2.