zeroone506 wrote: I don't get it. Telling people that there was a big event with someone landing on the moon, and broadcasting it live on TV, ONLY 30 YEARS AGO, even though that never really happened in the Matrix, would be a great reason for those people to snap and drown in their pods, me thinks.Except maybe, fabricated memories. But maybe they fabricated the broadcast aswell. °_°You have to look at it in their view not yours. There view of time is quiet different then our own so its harder to grasp. They never broadcasted anything to them. The only things that the media in the city reports on are things that happen in 1999 and nothing outstanding. Everything else is just slowly eased in and made to be absorbed by those inside. The events never happened they are only told they did via there fabricated memory and anything needed within the Matrix to push the lie.Why are you saying that there's nothing to tell yourself that something happened in that year if you agree it stands in your ID? Somehow, I'm confused by all of this.It doesn't stand in the ID. It changes every year and gets pushed back. But also people don't check there ID's for there age or year of birth unless their just very forgetful. It' something that is known via a sense of time and repetition when asked how old. ID's, files, reports of any kind are only there to help push the lie along and keep people from noticing the lack of movement in time.To take this further can you confirm for me that you were born the year you believe you were? Are you really that age? No one remembers there birth and all we really have to confirm that it is what we are told it is are records and memories. In the Matrix both of those are easily manipulated.Somehow you're contradicting yourself. If you agree that the dates in the world and memories are being shifted - then how can anyone notice that date's not moving? At any given moment, to them, the past took place in different years.They can't. What I'm saying is that if either the date moved or society was allowed to progress then it would be a noticeable change. The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in. Isn't it rather because their memory gets messed with and "ours" doesn't? I don't get what difference it makes if something major happens. If they Machines can shift around years in your head, they can. Even if there were events (maybe there are?), the Machines would just shift the dates. Why do that in the first place is the question.Major events of any kind leave lasting impressions. Take 9/11 for example. Those that saw it happen or were effected by it have a lasting impression that on September 11th 2001 there worlds changed forever. Major events are harder to take charge of and manipulate. The older you get the harder it is for the Machines to even work the birthday thing according to Tick Tock now imagine something happening at say the age 25 when your much more aware of what is and has happened. Also I need to clear up that misconception. The Machines aren't shifting around years in your head. Only shifting around records and leaving it all but impossible to properly recall events. I don't know, are you making the point that bluepills simply "take" the fact that the date isn't moving and all the past is being "shifted", because the history is poor of events? No matter how dull your life and the world is, NO ONE can miss something like that.The Machines go into your memory and overwrite the dates. No matter how significant the "events" in your life are.Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the lack of anything happening in the present to them is done to keep them unaware of the lack of change. Once year once is complete and the current 1999 becomes 1998 that year can have any range of events the machine wants that person to recall. its all about keeping the mind in a state that is easily manipulable so as to add false memories of past events. Again they don't got in and change all the years inside your head simply leave you open to take whatever year they want you to believe something happened on.I don't get why. They want to prevent the invention of the AI? Then prevent it. Observe and sabotage their scientific progress or whatever, brainwash them into not thinking about this possibility.Why this procedure with the date shifts? What's the purpose? Either way, for a bluepill, time pasts and nothing happens. Whether it's 1999 or 2199, they'll look at the past and say "wow, nothing really happened".What's the point?The point is to keep humanity in their control and unaware that they are. The Matrix isn't about a direct control but one done from the background. So they can't just come out into the open and keep one area from advancing. Its to noticeable. You think keeping it 1999 is hard to hide think about how it looks that the area of A.I. isn't advancing any yet we all have flying cars and no longer need to breath air to live? And again its not that they look back and say "wow nothing happened" its that by the time nothings happen the Machine already has all its outlets telling them something did happen by filling in the gaps that year left it.I just meant that people can question stuff around them, as opposed to buying any poppycock fed by the Machines.1% will. 99% won't.
I don't get it. Telling people that there was a big event with someone landing on the moon, and broadcasting it live on TV, ONLY 30 YEARS AGO, even though that never really happened in the Matrix, would be a great reason for those people to snap and drown in their pods, me thinks.Except maybe, fabricated memories. But maybe they fabricated the broadcast aswell. °_°You have to look at it in their view not yours. There view of time is quiet different then our own so its harder to grasp. They never broadcasted anything to them. The only things that the media in the city reports on are things that happen in 1999 and nothing outstanding. Everything else is just slowly eased in and made to be absorbed by those inside. The events never happened they are only told they did via there fabricated memory and anything needed within the Matrix to push the lie.Why are you saying that there's nothing to tell yourself that something happened in that year if you agree it stands in your ID? Somehow, I'm confused by all of this.It doesn't stand in the ID. It changes every year and gets pushed back. But also people don't check there ID's for there age or year of birth unless their just very forgetful. It' something that is known via a sense of time and repetition when asked how old. ID's, files, reports of any kind are only there to help push the lie along and keep people from noticing the lack of movement in time.To take this further can you confirm for me that you were born the year you believe you were? Are you really that age? No one remembers there birth and all we really have to confirm that it is what we are told it is are records and memories. In the Matrix both of those are easily manipulated.Somehow you're contradicting yourself. If you agree that the dates in the world and memories are being shifted - then how can anyone notice that date's not moving? At any given moment, to them, the past took place in different years.They can't. What I'm saying is that if either the date moved or society was allowed to progress then it would be a noticeable change. The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in. Isn't it rather because their memory gets messed with and "ours" doesn't? I don't get what difference it makes if something major happens. If they Machines can shift around years in your head, they can. Even if there were events (maybe there are?), the Machines would just shift the dates. Why do that in the first place is the question.Major events of any kind leave lasting impressions. Take 9/11 for example. Those that saw it happen or were effected by it have a lasting impression that on September 11th 2001 there worlds changed forever. Major events are harder to take charge of and manipulate. The older you get the harder it is for the Machines to even work the birthday thing according to Tick Tock now imagine something happening at say the age 25 when your much more aware of what is and has happened. Also I need to clear up that misconception. The Machines aren't shifting around years in your head. Only shifting around records and leaving it all but impossible to properly recall events. I don't know, are you making the point that bluepills simply "take" the fact that the date isn't moving and all the past is being "shifted", because the history is poor of events? No matter how dull your life and the world is, NO ONE can miss something like that.The Machines go into your memory and overwrite the dates. No matter how significant the "events" in your life are.Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the lack of anything happening in the present to them is done to keep them unaware of the lack of change. Once year once is complete and the current 1999 becomes 1998 that year can have any range of events the machine wants that person to recall. its all about keeping the mind in a state that is easily manipulable so as to add false memories of past events. Again they don't got in and change all the years inside your head simply leave you open to take whatever year they want you to believe something happened on.I don't get why. They want to prevent the invention of the AI? Then prevent it. Observe and sabotage their scientific progress or whatever, brainwash them into not thinking about this possibility.Why this procedure with the date shifts? What's the purpose? Either way, for a bluepill, time pasts and nothing happens. Whether it's 1999 or 2199, they'll look at the past and say "wow, nothing really happened".What's the point?The point is to keep humanity in their control and unaware that they are. The Matrix isn't about a direct control but one done from the background. So they can't just come out into the open and keep one area from advancing. Its to noticeable. You think keeping it 1999 is hard to hide think about how it looks that the area of A.I. isn't advancing any yet we all have flying cars and no longer need to breath air to live? And again its not that they look back and say "wow nothing happened" its that by the time nothings happen the Machine already has all its outlets telling them something did happen by filling in the gaps that year left it.I just meant that people can question stuff around them, as opposed to buying any poppycock fed by the Machines.1% will. 99% won't.
You have to look at it in their view not yours. There view of time is quiet different then our own so its harder to grasp. They never broadcasted anything to them. The only things that the media in the city reports on are things that happen in 1999 and nothing outstanding. Everything else is just slowly eased in and made to be absorbed by those inside. The events never happened they are only told they did via there fabricated memory and anything needed within the Matrix to push the lie.
Why are you saying that there's nothing to tell yourself that something happened in that year if you agree it stands in your ID? Somehow, I'm confused by all of this.
It doesn't stand in the ID. It changes every year and gets pushed back. But also people don't check there ID's for there age or year of birth unless their just very forgetful. It' something that is known via a sense of time and repetition when asked how old. ID's, files, reports of any kind are only there to help push the lie along and keep people from noticing the lack of movement in time.
To take this further can you confirm for me that you were born the year you believe you were? Are you really that age? No one remembers there birth and all we really have to confirm that it is what we are told it is are records and memories. In the Matrix both of those are easily manipulated.Somehow you're contradicting yourself. If you agree that the dates in the world and memories are being shifted - then how can anyone notice that date's not moving? At any given moment, to them, the past took place in different years.
They can't. What I'm saying is that if either the date moved or society was allowed to progress then it would be a noticeable change.
The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in. Isn't it rather because their memory gets messed with and "ours" doesn't? I don't get what difference it makes if something major happens. If they Machines can shift around years in your head, they can. Even if there were events (maybe there are?), the Machines would just shift the dates. Why do that in the first place is the question.
Major events of any kind leave lasting impressions. Take 9/11 for example. Those that saw it happen or were effected by it have a lasting impression that on September 11th 2001 there worlds changed forever. Major events are harder to take charge of and manipulate. The older you get the harder it is for the Machines to even work the birthday thing according to Tick Tock now imagine something happening at say the age 25 when your much more aware of what is and has happened.
Also I need to clear up that misconception. The Machines aren't shifting around years in your head. Only shifting around records and leaving it all but impossible to properly recall events. I don't know, are you making the point that bluepills simply "take" the fact that the date isn't moving and all the past is being "shifted", because the history is poor of events? No matter how dull your life and the world is, NO ONE can miss something like that.The Machines go into your memory and overwrite the dates. No matter how significant the "events" in your life are.
Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the lack of anything happening in the present to them is done to keep them unaware of the lack of change. Once year once is complete and the current 1999 becomes 1998 that year can have any range of events the machine wants that person to recall. its all about keeping the mind in a state that is easily manipulable so as to add false memories of past events. Again they don't got in and change all the years inside your head simply leave you open to take whatever year they want you to believe something happened on.I don't get why. They want to prevent the invention of the AI? Then prevent it. Observe and sabotage their scientific progress or whatever, brainwash them into not thinking about this possibility.Why this procedure with the date shifts? What's the purpose? Either way, for a bluepill, time pasts and nothing happens. Whether it's 1999 or 2199, they'll look at the past and say "wow, nothing really happened".What's the point?
The point is to keep humanity in their control and unaware that they are. The Matrix isn't about a direct control but one done from the background. So they can't just come out into the open and keep one area from advancing. Its to noticeable. You think keeping it 1999 is hard to hide think about how it looks that the area of A.I. isn't advancing any yet we all have flying cars and no longer need to breath air to live?
And again its not that they look back and say "wow nothing happened" its that by the time nothings happen the Machine already has all its outlets telling them something did happen by filling in the gaps that year left it.
I just meant that people can question stuff around them, as opposed to buying any poppycock fed by the Machines.
1% will. 99% won't.
They don't notice it, because they don't want to.
Consider what we've been taught about bluepills. Especially what Morpheus taught Neo in The Matrix. Some of them are so hopelessly dependent on the system, they'll even fight for it. This, one would assume, includes their own instincts. They avoid that which they won't understand, they ignore what they can't comprehend, and they deny when they can't do either.
That's how the Machines can make time stand still. For a bluepill to question it would be tantamount to being part of the .1% that won't accept the Matrix no matter how hard the Machines try.
Do they really live in such a brainless trance that they can't notice their own birthday shifting every year? Year counts is something people keep in mind and rely on in every day life. For someone in RL not to know what year it is, is unimaginable.We've got to know the bluepills mostly as "normal", accountable people, hard to imagine that that they're actually such brainless sleepwalkers (of course, I'm not saying THEY AREN'T, because this is a fictional universe at the end of the day).Take Mr. Rhineheart - a serious, responsible boss watching over the biggest software company in... the bubble of existence that is the Matrix / Mega City. Whatever. Who thinks he doesn't give a **** if all the important records and balances feel like changing their dates?And again - if they won't question this, how come the Machines are concerned that they'll question some stupid lack of AI inventions? If that's the sole reason they're going trough all the effort... or have I forgot something Tick Tock said? Well, then, so much about Machine efficiency, eh?I've always thought the 1% felt something was wrong with the world and questioned things other people wouldn't question. But this? I REALLY DON'T KNOW. Think again, 1999. People await the next century, maybe they've even bought firework (if they use to do that in the Matrix, doesn't really matter), but it never comes. I suppose if the "canon" says bluepills don't notice such an absurdity that would make everyone snap and think he's in a bad dream, and that it's absolutely necessary for the Machines to go through all this in order to prevent the AI from being invented and people from questioning why it hasn't, then it's "true". Right now, it simply appears as a bunch of nonsense to me (both what I think to know about this story, and your arguments).
To one of the earlier posts that don't look at 1999.
I think it goes without saying that the fight scene in the chateau is there for a large wicked cool action scene. As to why Neo didn't send the bullets back to the exiles firing at him...I think Neo was giving everyone in the room an example of his power and a choice: Follow orders and stay or disobey and leave with your lives.
Fractor wrote:
This is more about one scene than a whole topic/theme but I thought this would be a good place to post it as I don't think it should have it's own thread.In Reloaded where Neo fought the exiles in the Chateau why didn't he simply send the bullets he stopped back to the exiles therefore taking them all out at once? I suppose the simple explanation is it's a movie and a fight scene is more fun but there's also the question of surely someone would have tripped from all those bullets on the floor?I suppose this could be part of a theme of things that are explained by the fact that it's a movie.
There's also the fact that the exiles wouldn't have died from those bullets.They could dodge them too and besides, if lupines or sort, it wouldn't have affected them so he had to kick their rears (play PoN). And yes, it was an action movie. I think anyone would agree that they'd rather see him using swords/melee to kick their "ends" than just make them fall in one shot as they would in a parody.
Garu wrote:
ShiXinFeng wrote: Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. "Purposeless" doesn't really make much sense in regards to the actions of machine program. I'm merely thinking that Sati's creation may not necessarily have been as a result of the Oracle's meddling, however it does lend more credit to how the Oracle came to know about it. I guess after thinking more on it, I'm going to go with your presumption.Thanks for clearing up the deletion matter. I did misread that. It could be she hasn't been deleted because she is under the care of the Oracle or it could also be that her creation was planned from the beginning. There's certainly more than meets the eye with her.I've always thought there was more to her than the typical perception of "some little girl who controls weather". The mere fact that she, an exile, manipulated the Matrix out of sheer desire to honor Neo is astounding in itself. I'm hoping we see more as the story continues.
Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?
Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.
Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.
I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.
And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. "Purposeless" doesn't really make much sense in regards to the actions of machine program. I'm merely thinking that Sati's creation may not necessarily have been as a result of the Oracle's meddling, however it does lend more credit to how the Oracle came to know about it. I guess after thinking more on it, I'm going to go with your presumption.
Thanks for clearing up the deletion matter. I did misread that. It could be she hasn't been deleted because she is under the care of the Oracle or it could also be that her creation was planned from the beginning. There's certainly more than meets the eye with her.
I've always thought there was more to her than the typical perception of "some little girl who controls weather". The mere fact that she, an exile, manipulated the Matrix out of sheer desire to honor Neo is astounding in itself. I'm hoping we see more as the story continues.
WooHoo! topic mishmash! I'm going to go back to this one...
I'm really inclined to disagree with Shi. It seems almost abundantly clear from the movies that Sati was in fact created without a purpose to the machines as a group. Remember that not all Machines fall into the mindless drone category. Its pretty clear to me that Rama and kamala are borderline Exile types. They have enough independent sentience, and enough complexity to make decisions on their own. I would honestly take it a face value that they created Sati as an act of love. They might even be unique among programs for having attempted this, and hence part of Sati's uniqueness. as such, she may have had a purpose to them, but not to the Machines as a whole.
And yeah, as far as the Oracle "coming to know of Sati", Im pretty sure Rama says that they intentionally went to consult her about their dilemna, and furthermore, that evryone know the Oracle, or at least knows of her.
Lastly, it also seems pretty darn clear that the Oracle gave Rama her termination code for her shell deliberately. I felt that was strongly implied. I also seem to remember the Oracle saying that it cost her more than she bargained on. As such, I'm pretty sure this code was not a "kill-code". It merely was supposed to affect her "shell". However, it seems as though it also affected parts of her memory and personality, so that was the part the Oracle didnt expect.
And as far as Sati's importance, I think thast something that is being kepot in reserve for the stories future. Theres no way she would have stated that in the movies, without it having some significance. And as far as why the machines haven't deleted her, well, I'm guessing that Seraph may have a little to do with that.
Finally, my own WILD theory about Sati is the following... The first three movies have Neo exploring his ability to shape the Matrix. As things progress, he becomes more and more capable to extend his power into to control of machines OUTSIDE the Matrix. In his showdown with Bain/Smith, he briefly moves at Matrix speed in the Real world. So I really think that the Brothers were trying to hint at a much more broadly metaphysical view of reality. So... Sati will, I believe, be like a reverse Neo. She will end up developing the ability to affect things in the REAL!
As i say, wild and out there, but thats what id like to believe.
