[8.3.3] We have a situation west of the Mercer Canal - Recursion - 10/19/07

Croesis

PS10N wrote:

It's so very sad that you continue to try to vindicate the the despots, the killers and the liars. The blood on the floors of Old Zion proves your failed morality. So many have been killed because they would not be lied to, overwritten or controlled and you say it's laughable. You make yourself out to be completely and irrevocably insane by continuing to support conclusions which are denied by centuries of hard evidence. For 650 years, from the destruction of New York City until Neo showed us the way, every human who would not be controlled was killed. Their bones accuse you from the ashes of six destroyed cities.

The blood on the floors of Old Zion are the result of your actions, it was quite, quite clear from the outset that it would happen unless you laid down your arms and talked, but Zion had no intentions of doing so. In fact I would speculate that those involved in the planning of the building of New Zion were expecting the Machines to destroy Old Zion, if only to bolster the resolve of their soldiers in the fight against the Machines, and increase innocent's fear of them.

Also if you wan't to duplicate our discussion about mass graves and centuries of hard evidence including your lack of proof, beyond the words which you have heard which came from a Machine source, so be it.

You don't trust Machines, yet you would believe them if it aided in your Preaching against them...

Br00ch

Croesus wrote:

In fact I would speculate that those involved in the planning of the building of New Zion were expecting the Machines to destroy Old Zion, if only to bolster the resolve of their soldiers in the fight against the Machines, and increase innocent's fear of them.

This statement, right there, demonstrates the immense (bordering on insane) lack of trust Machinists have toward Zion. No one can prove you wrong though.

I remember Cryptos saying once on one of his CD sermon-spiels, "The Machines don't always have humanity's best interests at heart." Being that he's mainly a Machine program you'd think he'd know. The intentions and beliefs of both sides are so different.

Summed up, if you see freedom as having no value except for destructive potential than the Machines actions are absolutely justified. Their reliance on bluepills make them perfectly qualified to have the Whole's best interest in mind. If however you believe the best examples of the beauty of life are created when free enterprise and individual dreams are allowed to flourish (cue Disney music in the backround), then Zion's actions are completely justified. You can easily see this same debate in the 18th-21st century between constrained and unconstrained visions, whether freedom and competition produce the best results or control and unity, attempting to legislate a unified morality to the 'Whole'. Just instead of bankers and priests, lawyers and bureacrats we now have traded in for Exiles and Zionists, Machines and Rogue Sentinels. The problem is choice.

Croesis

Br00ch wrote:

This statement, right there, demonstrates the immense (bordering on insane) lack of trust Machinists have toward Zion. No one can prove you wrong though.

You're right it does sound insane, which is why it's only a speculation. You have to admit though Humankind have exhibited similar actions in our past, maybe not on so much a grand scale but the idea has been the same...

**Count**

This is an awesome picture of Agent Gray, Illyria1 and myself Aq3nt... I have to say it's truely beautiful^^ Im going to add this to my desktop^^ hehe

**PS10N** · 10/24/2007 10:59:53

Croesus wrote:

The blood on the floors of Old Zion are the result of your actions, it was quite, quite clear from the outset that it would happen unless you laid down your arms and talked, but Zion had no intentions of doing so. In fact I would speculate that those involved in the planning of the building of New Zion were expecting the Machines to destroy Old Zion, if only to bolster the resolve of their soldiers in the fight against the Machines, and increase innocent's fear of them.
Also if you wan't to duplicate our discussion about mass graves and centuries of hard evidence including your lack of proof, beyond the words which you have heard which came from a Machine source, so be it.
You don't trust Machines, yet you would believe them if it aided in your Preaching against them...

You're the kind who blames *CENSORED* on the victim I see. Yes, the 5 year old girl who was in Zion hospital and who was too sick to move, she was torn to pieces by a mechanical killing machine and it was ALL HER FAULT. The elderly who were too fragile to make the evacuation: helplessly slaughtered by murdering machines. The 8 month pregnant woman with a partially detached placenta, who chose to remain behind in Zion rather than kill her baby by being moved - she and her baby was torn apart and killed and it was ALL HER FAULT according to you. You defend cold blooded murder of innocents and try to vindicate the murderers! You are completely and unutterably insane. The Machines are cold blooded murderers, slaughtering innocent woman and children who had absolutely nothing to do with any political, military or philosophical conflict. Caught in your own words again, you say, "it would happen unless you laid down your arms and talked," which is very clearly the same as "surrender to Machine control or we WILL KILL YOU."

Every encounter with a Machine (mechanical) that any Zionist, freeborn or podgrown, has had has been the machine trying to kill them. There is no such thing as a peaceful encounter with a mechanical - on every single occasion, meeting a mechanical in the Real meant facing death. They are KILLING machines, nothing more. The fact that you continue to say "murder is right, genocide is right, mind-*CENSORED* is right" shows that you should be locked away in an institutional construct for the criminally mentally insane.

Croesis · 10/24/2007 11:51:03

PS10N wrote:

You're the kind who blames *CENSORED* on the victim I see. Yes, the 5 year old girl who was in Zion hospital and who was too sick to move, she was torn to pieces by a mechanical killing machine and it was ALL HER FAULT. The elderly who were too fragile to make the evacuation: helplessly slaughtered by murdering machines. The 8 month pregnant woman with a partially detached placenta, who chose to remain behind in Zion rather than kill her baby by being moved - she and her baby was torn apart and killed and it was ALL HER FAULT according to you. You defend cold blooded murder of innocents and try to vindicate the murderers! You are completely and unutterably insane. The Machines are cold blooded murderers, slaughtering innocent woman and children who had absolutely nothing to do with any political, military or philosophical conflict. Caught in your own words again, you say, "it would happen unless you laid down your arms and talked," which is very clearly the same as "surrender to Machine control or we WILL KILL YOU."

Every encounter with a Machine (mechanical) that any Zionist, freeborn or podgrown, has had has been the machine trying to kill them. There is no such thing as a peaceful encounter with a mechanical - on every single occasion, meeting a mechanical in the Real meant facing death. They are KILLING machines, nothing more. The fact that you continue to say "murder is right, genocide is right, mind-*CENSORED* is right" shows that you should be locked away in an institutional construct for the criminally mentally insane.

And you, are once again caught on your soapbox of falsity, Preacher. Not only that but you have tried to push the issue of proof of Zion's previous iteration's mass graves under the carpet.

To talk does not mean surrender so it is clearly not the same. To negotiate only takes one or a small number of people to talk to the same amount of the other side who are equally as unarmed. Once again you spew your propaganda with little to show for rational thought.

No the 5 year old girl, the elderly woman and the pregnant woman weren't to blame. I said you. You and your preaching and the other people who made this decision. You condemned those innocents to death through your actions.

And again you are dismissing the fact that Machinists have been working with Machines and we have not faced death. Last time I checked I also came from the pods and I've been in the real, outside the November working on ships systems with Sentinels flying and working around the area. Also you completely and knowingly ignore that fact that the Agent programs are programs of the Machines capable of killing Humans, yet they don't kill Machinists on every occasion they meet us, or even Zionites when they've had meetings in the past. You deliberately missed that part out because it doesn't help your case and you know it.

I've never once said that murder is right, what I have said is that we are at war, soldiers die, so do the innocents who are put in danger by the stupidity of their leaders and military. I've never said genocide is right, you however seem to advocate the genocide of the Machine race. You think your better than me Preacher, I admit when I've made mistakes, I voice my objections to my superiors when their actions go against my beliefs. You remove yourself from any position of blame and point the finger at the Machines.

Yes, people should be put away for suggesting genocide is right, so I hope you have a nice comfortable straight-jacket that fits you properly, but don't worry, the walls will always be available for one of your sermons, Preacher.

**PS10N** · 10/24/2007 14:15:01

Croesus wrote:

Up is down. Black is white. Evil is good. Right is wrong. Death is life. Lies are truth. Light is darkness. War is peace. Ignorance is certitude. Now accept what I say or WE WILL KILL YOU.

Once again you try to blame the victims. The mechanicals and the Machines who supported them are FULLY AND WHOLLY RESPONSIBLE for the WHOLESALE MURDER of THOUSANDS of INNOCENTS. You can't blame those who were trying to SAVE and PROTECT them for killing them, but you try to say that very thing! Can't you even hear the inherent contradictions in your own words? The blood of Old Zion is on your hands, not ours. Our actions have always been to save and protect and heal and the Machines actions have always been to murder and destroy. These are historical facts, but I don't expect you to put any weight in facts since you are so clearly delusional and insane. You repeatedly say that it is OK to slaughter innocent women and children for no other reason than that they wanted to live free from the threat of being slaughtered! How can you even listen to yourself say such things without feeling the moral disgust the rest of us do at your abominable attitude? By your own logic you should commit suicide because you don't want to die, and you try to call my arguments invalid? The depths of your insanity, depravity and moral ineptitude are readily apparent. Keep it up, we're all eager to hear you try to convince us how wholesale murder is justified because the victims wanted to live free of the threat of murder.

Croesis · 10/24/2007 14:08:12

PS10N wrote:

Croesus wrote:
Up is down. Black is white. Right is wrong. Death is life. Lies are truth. Light is darkness. War is peace. Ignorance is certitude. Now accept what I say or WE WILL KILL YOU.

Now you are just babbling to save face, if you can't rebut what I say, fine, just don't put words in my mouth.
I have never said it is OK to murder innocents whatsoever you put those words in my mouth. You disrespect your own dead by blaming those who you are at war with for their deaths, even though you caused the renewal of conflict and you put them in harms way. Those innocents wouldn't have needed saving if it wasn't for your actions, they wouldn't have died if you'd just even tried to negotiate with the Machines. You didn't try to save them at all, you condemned them to death through your actions.

Humankind has a history of violence, THAT is historical fact. Machines actually wanted peace, and through working with Machinist to protect Humankind in the pods they still show willing. Why should they ignore the actions of a splinter race that keeps on trying to wipe them out?

Make no mistake we are at war so you are crazy to expect that the Machines won't kill those fighting back.

You question my ethics, but I don't place civilians in front of me for the purpose of blaming the opposition when they die.

I have spoken to and had intelligent conversations with Zionites about this war, we've had our differences of opinion but at least they process what I have to say. Your complete xenophobia is completely apparent through your comments. You are dangerous. It is Preachers such as yourself who cause these wars and ensure their longevity.

**PS10N**

I have rebutted EVERYTHING you have said while you have IGNORED every proof I've made. It obvious you don't have any moral, reasonable or logical argument to back your insanity, so you just keep repeating the same programmed rhetoric which does not stand up to scrutiny in the least. The reasons the Machines don't kill you in the Real (yet) is because you are their tool. That's right, you're a tool. As I've said many times before, it's CONTROL, OVERWRITE or KILL. You are already under their control, so they have no reason to kill you. Yet. Once they have all our jack-encoding, if we refuse to leave the Matrix, we are all dead. Machine operatives are not immune to the MEATWAD that's planned for them. The future has been written: the Machines get the jack encoding, they demand all Redpills forever leave The Matrix and those who don't are MEATWADS, Machine Operatives included.

Let's take two metaphorical examples which use Croesus' precise "logic":

A family living in a house notices a strange odor. There doesn't seem to be any danger so they go about their routines. Now, the odor is growing and obviously something is wrong. After inspection, the family notices that there is smoke seeping from the walls - there must be a smoldering fire! Well, the choice is, stay and surely be killed at some future time or leave seeking safely. As the family is evacuating the unsafe structure, Croesus appears and shoots the men, women and children in the back of the head as they flee. Then, she proudly proclaims, "It's their fault for leaving the house, they should have stayed!"

A man is walking down the street, minding his own business. Croesus appears and demands that the man give her $1 million. The man says, "I don't have $1 million!" Croesus shoots him between the eyes in cold blooded murder, then proudly proclaims, "It was his fault because he didn't give me $1 million like I told him to!"

This is exactly the type of "logic" you are trying to use to justify the murders of the men, women and children of Old Zion. The Machines never honored the truce, it is the height and depth of their deception that they even claim that they could call it off, when all the time they had been plotting to destroy Zion and kill all Redpills. They never honored the truce, not from day one, with their overwriting of Redpills, they are nothing more than criminal rapists. Why did they want access to our mainframe last year? The LIE they told was so that they could forestall potential threats from within Zion. The TRUTH is, they were and are now after the Jack Encoding used by every Redpill. You're marked for death Croesus, by the hands of those you serve, but don't worry, it will be your own fault when you're killed.

You have a name for me, "Preacher." Thank you, it's quite a compliment. I have a name for you too. It's "ignorant amoral programmed tool."

**Illyria22**

PS10N wrote:

You're the kind who blames *CENSORED* on the victim I see. Yes, the 5 year old girl who was in Zion hospital and who was too sick to move, she was torn to pieces by a mechanical killing machine and it was ALL HER FAULT. The elderly who were too fragile to make the evacuation: helplessly slaughtered by murdering machines. The 8 month pregnant woman with a partially detached placenta, who chose to remain behind in Zion rather than kill her baby by being moved - she and her baby was torn apart and killed and it was ALL HER FAULT according to you.

We're not blaming them. We're blaming Zion's leadership, for choosing to construct New Zion when they knew full well the Machines would see it as breaking the truce. And they knew that if the truce failed their city would be destroyed, and they did it anyway. A great many deaths could have been avoided, if only Zion's leadership had put more effort into bettering relations with the Machines rather than taking the first opportunity to destroy any trust the Machines may have had in them.

PS10N wrote:

Every encounter with a Machine (mechanical) that any Zionist, freeborn or podgrown, has had has been the machine trying to kill them. There is no such thing as a peaceful encounter with a mechanical - on every single occasion, meeting a mechanical in the Real meant facing death.

Um...no. What about the Machines that monitor the pods? Zionites encountered them quite peacefully (while the truce was still on) when they went to extract new redpills from their pods. And when the truce was intact, I doubt that Zionites running into Machines doing maintenance or tending the baby-fields would have been "facing death".

PS10N wrote:

They are KILLING machines, nothing more. The fact that you continue to say "murder is right, genocide is right, mind-*CENSORED* is right" shows that you should be locked away in an institutional construct for the criminally mentally insane.

Saying the Machines are nothing more than killing machines is like saying that every Soviet citizen in the Cold War era was a highly-trained soldier poised to invade America. It's rhetoric like yours that shows just how much you hate the Machines and anyone who chooses to work with them. (On the other hand, most Machinists held no ill will towards Zionites -- apart from those who advocated violence against the system or the Matrix -- before the truce ended.)

And you wonder why the Machines don't trust you with your freedom to do whatever you want, in the Matrix and the real? I don't trust you either!

Illyria

Croesis

Your pathetic ramblings are just getting crazier and more frivolous. Take a close look at your last opening statement. You'll find, along with every other person, that it applies to you more than I. You say you have rebutted everything but have not shown any proof for any of your claims and when you can't prove them you make up other wild theories to make up for it. You make up stories and put words in my mouth.

Those stories make no sense in relation to reality. Zionites were evacuating to New Zion due to the war being resumed because you built it. Yet the Machines didn't attack until most of Zion were evacuated, they could have done it at any time...

So in your first example the house is on fire due to a crazy xenophobic preacher setting fire to it, the neighbors come round because the fire was started to burn down their house and shoot the preacher, he tries to avoid it by pulling the children and women in front of him.

The second example is more like: A man is walking down the street with a shotgun firing it through windows of policemen and families who live there. The police turns up and demand that he lay down his gun and come quietly, the man says no and attempts to shoot the cops...

you see, I can make up stories too, but mine are closer to reality.

The Machines wanted access to the Zion database to prevent more occurrences like Anome, if they'd gotten access you would probably not be here right now, you are just as obsessive and crazed. I guess it was luck that Niobe stated that Zion would not follow through with the deal and use the offer of the Machines' processing capability which was the trade.

The Machines could have destroyed Zion at any time, even in your ramblings you confirmed this, as you say that they've destroyed Zion 5 times before, why bother plotting when they are as efficient as they are at it? No Zion were the ones plotting, New Zion is evidence of that. The fact that the Machines didn't attack meant honouring the truce. In fact they honoured it to the letter by preventing Zion from awakening more than the allocated 1% as agreed to by The Machines and Zion.

**PS10N** · 10/24/2007 15:44:54

Let me just ask you this... do those little twirping birds that fly around your head all the time keep you awake at night? You're at it again, defending those who slaughtered the friends and families of myself and my friends and family who survived the mass-murder. We are not going to let you talk your way out of this. You're guilty and your own masters will kill you, so justice is served with irony and we don't have to blacken ourselves with revenge.

All this has come to is the same repeated, droning lies of the programmed machines. I'm done with this feed. I'm sure it will be picked up elsewhere.

**Illyria22**

I think someone needs to switch to decaf...

Illyria