Why the Matrix is (or should be) an entire world

[CoZ]LostProphet

There are conflicting opinions as to whether or not the Matrix is the entire world, or not.

I personally believe (and have illustrated as such in various RP that I do) that it is, and here's why I think it is, or if not, why it should be.

The capacity is there. Artificial Intelligence and then sentience alone is a huge technology step. Amassing an entire civilisation is another massive leap. Simulating even a basic Matrix is - again, a massive step. Add to that that over numerous 'occurences' of the Matrix we're looking at between maybe several hundred to almost 1000 years, and there's nothing to suggest that the machines couldn't run an entire world simulation.

Agent Smith alludes to "billions of people, just living out their lives" - note billions. It's simply impossible to cram that number of people into one city, even if it is a 'Mega City'.
Mega Cities have been theorised as the 'future' for living spaces - that is, our current cities will spread across states or segments of countries (in the case of the UK), with the result that maybe two or three cities plus all intermediate countryside and suburbs will become one large MegaCity.

But even that is not enough to hold billions of people.

Someone once floated the theory that everyone living 'outside' the MegaCity is simply in a deeper form of sleep, and is 'activated' with preprogrammed memories as soon as they enter the City and become 'active'.
But to me, that doesn't make sense. Why not do that with all humans? If the goal is simply to keep the population passive, they could do that with everybody. It also doesn't allow for the 1% of people OUTSIDE the MegaCity that reject the simulation.

Another point, is that an entire world is believable.
The Matrix is, at the end of the day, a simulation. As comparatively primitive as human brains are to the mind of say, the Oracle, we still have an uncanny ability to know what's up. And the choice is always offered at a subconscious level whether or not to accept the Matrix.
For 99%, the choice is yes - why? Because they are being fed information that sits perfectly well with their human mind's interpretation of normality. Transitioning between being in an active MegaCity, then going to a 'sleep' state because they're visiting London, for example, would surely begin to jar against the sense that everything is normal.

There are overheads to consider on this too. The infrastructure to run the Matrix is relatively stable. They make the world, the humans live in it, under a measure of control.
Once you start dealing with implanting memories - and don't forget they have to strike a natural chord with the human brain - you start needing massive resources to keep track of every person's memory, cross referencing them with everyone else's that they may have come into contact with - and on a shopping spree in December that could be hundreds or even thousands of people - and of course keep those in check with all PAST memories.

Whilst I believe this is possible for a civilisation as advanced as the machines' is, I believe it to be a massive waste of resources, and a potentially damaging one.

Another issue with this, in two ways, is the newspapers that Neo read in the Matrix. Morpheus seen at Heathrow, etc.
For one, this would suggest that there is more to the Matrix than one city.
For another thing, we get into a murky situation - this information is planted to make coppertops believe that the London they know is real. But if it WAS fake, then Morpheus was NEVER there - as a redpill he could not, as there was no 'construct' to hack in to. In fact, he was probably somewhere else in the Matrix - being seen by other people, creating totally conflicting accounts and memories.
Whilst this could be attributed to mistaken identity or wannabes, it is my opinion that it served the machines' purpose to perpetrate Morpheus as a dangerous man who was top of the Most Wanted list, and would only dilute their efforts in bringing him in by introducing 'dupes' and 'doubles'.

Also, there's the problem of The Merv - the Chateau. This is clearly a place that has been built (the mountains) by machines, and modified (the Chateau) by the Merv. It makes no sense to simply have a load of mountains created, they serve no purpose. Plus then they would know exactly where the Merv was, and could just delete that sector of the Matrix itself, surely?

And the code. When searching for Niobe and Ghost, the operator of the Mjolnir scrolls out from a code glyph which is the MegaCity as we know. Theoretically - for some - the only place in the Matrix.
Yet once he is zoomed out, the glyph disappears in a huge rainstorm of code. If that ONE glyph represents an entire city, what is the rest of it?
Sure, there are programs created to govern the behaviour of the environment and so on, but it simply doesn't sit right with me that ALL of the extra code we see is simply 'extraneous' programs.

Lastly (I think) - why not?
Why should it NOT be real? The machines had all the data on us that they required. They could easily create a replica - either direct or modified - of the entire planet if they so wished. In my view, the negatives and potential problems of NOT doing so outweigh the negatives and potential problems of actually doing it.

**ShiXinFeng**

Hmm. I'd be forced to agree with this, for sheer numbers sake more than any other reason.

Consider that the greater Tokyo area, which includes the city itself and all the surrounding metropolitan area, has a population of 35 million.

1 billion = 1000 million

Tokyo would have to be instanced 29 times just to get 1 bil! And that's not even getting into the question of whether Smith meant 'billions' plural or just 1 billion+.

But! Is it physically possible to generate the power and raw processing capability to run both 01 A.I. and an entire simulated planet?

Einstein proved that faster-than-light travel is possible, but we can't do it because the energy source required to do it would be so large as to have a gravitational field of its own and therefore wouldn't be movable.

Same principle applies here; the computer needed to generate an entire planet in virtual reality that is undistinguishable from true reality would be larger than the planet itself, regardless of the size they can get a computer down to. There is only so far down the molecular structure you can go.

[CoZ]LostProphet

I thought Einstein proved that going faster than life was not possible, E=MC^2 and all that jazz.

As an object reaches the speed of light, it gains almost infinite mass, requiring an almost infinite amount of energy to propel it.

I don't think that computer size is an issue. Don't forget that we're currently working towards nano technology as well as quantum computing.
Given that in the Matrix universe, humans have created sentient AI and also filled the sky with nano-bots, it stands to reason that, given the superior brains of the AI machines plus several hundred years of unbroken research, the machines could easily create a fairly compact processing engine to run the Matrix.

Sent

To the OP,

Quite right. That was quicker than the others.

Some believed that the bros lacked the script-writing or directorial language to describe your perfect Matrixverse.

We're not talking about a Seahaven Island here designed to provide a simulation for one guy who never leaves, but a huge city with an airport and arterial roads going every place. When the bluepills hit the boundaries of the MegaCity, what happens? Does their car or plane rubberband backwards with a message that says, "The Matrix will not allow you to drive/fly there."? I don't think this is answered anywhere, but I'm sure there are numerous ways to try to make sense of it, especially with the machines having backdoor access to their brains. We do have indications from one of the Matrix comics that they have the ability to alter the sense of the passing of time...not to mention that it just seems to always be 1999. Maybe there is a Dark Cityesque mass delusional system where everyone who leaves has really hazy memories of what happened. If they can alter the childhood memories, why can't they also insert other memories as needed? Even this doesn't make much sense though because the amount of information collectively required for all those memories might be comparable to actually simulating the rest of the world.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Same principle applies here; the computer needed to generate an entire planet in virtual reality that is undistinguishable from true reality would be larger than the planet itself, regardless of the size they can get a computer down to. There is only so far down the molecular structure you can go.

This is a logical argument...but it makes a lot of assumptions. We have strong indications from mathematics that the 4 dimensions we are familiar with (up/down, left/right, backward/forward, time) are not the only ones that exist. Also, we increasingly gain the ability to perceive spectrums beyond what our senses can directly perceive, to see smaller and smaller, and to see farther and farther. To fully simulate a 4-D reality world, you would need to have a more thorough understanding of some of these deeper aspects of the universe, a better "theory of everything", and this is what seems to be developing right now. First comes theory, then comes testing and application. Before you could create advanced information systems such as we have today, you had to have an adequate information theory being worked out long before it came to fruition. You cannot create applications until the understanding of the principles that make the system possible has increased to a sufficient level.

In the MMORPG of our universe, assuming there are 50 levels of awareness, where do you think we are collectively as a species? I'd say maybe we're level 2, but we like to think we're at 49. Maybe at level 3 a comparable Matrix will be possible.

**zeroone506**

I know it sucks to reply with one liners to so long and well thought-out posts.

But... the Matrix is only Mega City. It's official canon. If you read the hidden Machine link in the previous Sentinel where all the killed Unlimit lieutenants' past was examined, you'll clearly see that the Matrix is just the city and the memories from other locations are inserted into their mind.

However - your post makes sense in almost every point, and pretty much makes me think that Chadwick and the brothers were wrong with this decision SMILEY
Although, of course, maybe they're right and wrote this with some thought and we don't get it.

Just a few remarks: the paper articles on Neo's computer were probably lies - I think Morpheus these weren't based on any real appearence of his, but made up to draw the public's attention to him (thus making the hunt easier), and of course create another reason to believe beyond Mega City along the way.

I think the mountains around the city are there to avoid unnecessary actions of curiosity, so people don't try to get out too much.

Finally - the code intro to "Revolutions". I don't think it directly shows the operator scanning for Niobe and Ghost - later in the scene, he scans for Neo, and just shifts the code left and right a bit (must be a very rough overview of the Matrix).
The intro sequence is probably just visual art - it might have a meaning, but certainly not that every symbol represents a city.
Maybe you remember the intro and outro of Animatrix' "Beyond" - it also zoomed in and out of that Asian town and showed many green "cities" flowing around independently. But that's not canon...

**ShiXinFeng**

Sent wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Same principle applies here; the computer needed to generate an entire planet in virtual reality that is undistinguishable from true reality would be larger than the planet itself, regardless of the size they can get a computer down to. There is only so far down the molecular structure you can go.

This is a logical argument...but it makes a lot of assumptions. We have strong indications from mathematics that the 4 dimensions we are familiar with (up/down, left/right, backward/forward, time) are not the only ones that exist. Also, we increasingly gain the ability to perceive spectrums beyond what our senses can directly perceive, to see smaller and smaller, and to see farther and farther. To fully simulate a 4-D reality world, you would need to have a more thorough understanding of some of these deeper aspects of the universe, a better "theory of everything", and this is what seems to be developing right now. First comes theory, then comes testing and application. Before you could create advanced information systems such as we have today, you had to have an adequate information theory being worked out long before it came to fruition. You cannot create applications until the understanding of the principles that make the system possible has increased to a sufficient level.

In the MMORPG of our universe, assuming there are 50 levels of awareness, where do you think we are collectively as a species? I'd say maybe we're level 2, but we like to think we're at 49. Maybe at level 3 a comparable Matrix will be possible.

Quite right, I should have quantified my answer with a "maybe" or "perhaps". How much smaller than 'sub-atomic' can we get though? Quarks are still just a theory; no one has ever seen one in isolation. At this point, they could just as easily be disproved as proved.

As far as 'exceding the limits of the Matrix', let's examine the scenario:

The Matrix simulation stops beyond the surrounding country-side. People must be able to travel beyond the city; that's undeniable human nature. The Machines must have come up with a way for both to occur, for the purposes of efficiency.

People who 'exit' the limits of the simulation are put into a deep, coma-like sleep for the real-time length of their departure from the simulation. Those that 'live' outside the city are either kept asleep, or are simply replaced with programs.
If they return to the simulation, their minds are impregnated with constructed memories of the trip. This is easily done, as the mind recalls memory in fragments anyway.
Physical locations outside the simulation exist. . .as constructs. The Chateau is constructed by the Merovingian as a place to hide. It was likely that no operative had ever been there, and Neo was the first to 'connect' the construct to the simulation.

Just some random thoughts. SMILEY

[CoZ]LostProphet

zeroone506 wrote:

I know it sucks to reply with one liners to so long and well thought-out posts.

But... the Matrix is only Mega City. It's official canon. If you read the hidden Machine link in the previous Sentinel where all the killed Unlimit lieutenants' past was examined, you'll clearly see that the Matrix is just the city and the memories from other locations are inserted into their mind.
Yeah I did read that
Up to that point I hadn't seen anything properly 'official' and to be honest was pretty disheartened - having an entire world opens up a massive realm of possibilities, not so much as far as MxO goes, but the player worlds that are created within in. TBH I'll probably continue to assume that the Matrix simulates an entire world in my RP, but I try and stick as close to canon as possible with most things :-/

However - your post makes sense in almost every point, and pretty much makes me think that Chadwick and the brothers were wrong with this decision
Although, of course, maybe they're right and wrote this with some thought and we don't get it.

Hehe, thanks
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from those that make the decisions, but given that the Wachowski Bros have never truly explained anything about the Matrix (and never will) and that Paul hasn't ever (to my knowledge) addressed a player query directly, I don't hold out much hope

Just a few remarks: the paper articles on Neo's computer were probably lies - I think Morpheus these weren't based on any real appearence of his, but made up to draw the public's attention to him (thus making the hunt easier), and of course create another reason to believe beyond Mega City along the way.

I think the mountains around the city are there to avoid unnecessary actions of curiosity, so people don't try to get out too much.

Finally - the code intro to "Revolutions". I don't think it directly shows the operator scanning for Niobe and Ghost - later in the scene, he scans for Neo, and just shifts the code left and right a bit (must be a very rough overview of the Matrix).
The intro sequence is probably just visual art - it might have a meaning, but certainly not that every symbol represents a city.
Maybe you remember the intro and outro of Animatrix' "Beyond" - it also zoomed in and out of that Asian town and showed many green "cities" flowing around independently. But that's not canon...

[CoZ]LostProphet

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Sent wrote:
Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Same principle applies here; the computer needed to generate an entire planet in virtual reality that is undistinguishable from true reality would be larger than the planet itself, regardless of the size they can get a computer down to. There is only so far down the molecular structure you can go.

This is a logical argument...but it makes a lot of assumptions. We have strong indications from mathematics that the 4 dimensions we are familiar with (up/down, left/right, backward/forward, time) are not the only ones that exist. Also, we increasingly gain the ability to perceive spectrums beyond what our senses can directly perceive, to see smaller and smaller, and to see farther and farther. To fully simulate a 4-D reality world, you would need to have a more thorough understanding of some of these deeper aspects of the universe, a better "theory of everything", and this is what seems to be developing right now. First comes theory, then comes testing and application. Before you could create advanced information systems such as we have today, you had to have an adequate information theory being worked out long before it came to fruition. You cannot create applications until the understanding of the principles that make the system possible has increased to a sufficient level.

In the MMORPG of our universe, assuming there are 50 levels of awareness, where do you think we are collectively as a species? I'd say maybe we're level 2, but we like to think we're at 49. Maybe at level 3 a comparable Matrix will be possible.

Quite right, I should have quantified my answer with a "maybe" or "perhaps". How much smaller than 'sub-atomic' can we get though? Quarks are still just a theory; no one has ever seen one in isolation. At this point, they could just as easily be disproved as proved.
As far as 'exceding the limits of the Matrix', let's examine the scenario:
The Matrix simulation stops beyond the surrounding country-side. People must be able to travel beyond the city; that's undeniable human nature. The Machines must have come up with a way for both to occur, for the purposes of efficiency.
People who 'exit' the limits of the simulation are put into a deep, coma-like sleep for the real-time length of their departure from the simulation. Those that 'live' outside the city are either kept asleep, or are simply replaced with programs.
That's a workable solution (as I addressed in the OP), but my question (hypothetical I guess, as we'll never truly know!) would be: why? Why keep a section of the population 'awake', and the rest 'asleep'?
Does the 1% that reject the simulation only come from the 'awake' people - and if this is the case, why not keep everyone 'asleep' and avoid the whole mess of Zion and the One and so forth.
If not - what happens if the 'One' turns out to be in the 'asleep' portion of the population - is he/she just inserted straight into the source with no knowledge of what is happening, or is their 'departure' to the MegaCity engineered so that they then 'awake' and set the cycle in motion?

If they return to the simulation, their minds are impregnated with constructed memories of the trip. This is easily done, as the mind recalls memory in fragments anyway.
Physical locations outside the simulation exist. . .as constructs. The Chateau is constructed by the Merovingian as a place to hide. It was likely that no operative had ever been there, and Neo was the first to 'connect' the construct to the simulation.
That's a really interesting theory, but Link seemed to know exactly what was up. As soon as Neo asked where he was (and was still within the boundaries of the Chateau), Link seemed to know exactly where he was - and he had also located him seemingly before he made the call, indicating that the location was known to him.

Just some random thoughts.

**zeroone506**

[CoZ]LostProphet wrote:

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from those that make the decisions, but given that the Wachowski Bros have never truly explained anything about the Matrix (and never will) and that Paul hasn't ever (to my knowledge) addressed a player query directly, I don't hold out much hope

Paul doesn't respond to queries regularly - but for istance, he did on that interview. People who were there asked him live, and he responded to posted queries.
And you can still ask Rarebit who still has some knowledge in the area. Then again, he often doesn't give an answer referring to Chadwick, since their contact seems to be limited, so don't know.

**ShiXinFeng**

Shi Xin Feng wrote:

[CoZLostProphet] wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
As far as 'exceding the limits of the Matrix', let's examine the scenario:
The Matrix simulation stops beyond the surrounding country-side. People must be able to travel beyond the city; that's undeniable human nature. The Machines must have come up with a way for both to occur, for the purposes of efficiency.
People who 'exit' the limits of the simulation are put into a deep, coma-like sleep for the real-time length of their departure from the simulation. Those that 'live' outside the city are either kept asleep, or are simply replaced with programs.
That's a workable solution (as I addressed in the OP), but my question (hypothetical I guess, as we'll never truly know!) would be: why? Why keep a section of the population 'awake', and the rest 'asleep'?
Does the 1% that reject the simulation only come from the 'awake' people - and if this is the case, why not keep everyone 'asleep' and avoid the whole mess of Zion and the One and so forth.
If not - what happens if the 'One' turns out to be in the 'asleep' portion of the population - is he/she just inserted straight into the source with no knowledge of what is happening, or is their 'departure' to the MegaCity engineered so that they then 'awake' and set the cycle in motion?
Well, let's say a blue-pill has to fly to 'Paris' for a two-week trip. Easy, 2 week coma - memory install. An exchange-student goes to Espania for 3 months, well, a little harder to do, but same thing-sleep and memory install, with a program that might 'keep in touch' with the parents at regular intervals.
But a mover is harder to do. Someone who moves out of the city would simply be recycled for the sake of efficiency. After all, it's not like bodies for the power plant are in short supply. Then, they would be replaced by the 'keep in touch' program.
The One is a design facet of the Matrix. Although the Machines don't know who has manifested the power of the One, they know when and how. Therefore, they have a measure of control over who (general population) gets to manifest as the One. I would think that it would be those who are predisposed to remain in the city,

If they return to the simulation, their minds are impregnated with constructed memories of the trip. This is easily done, as the mind recalls memory in fragments anyway.
Physical locations outside the simulation exist. . .as constructs. The Chateau is constructed by the Merovingian as a place to hide. It was likely that no operative had ever been there, and Neo was the first to 'connect' the construct to the simulation.
That's a really interesting theory, but Link seemed to know exactly what was up. As soon as Neo asked where he was (and was still within the boundaries of the Chateau), Link seemed to know exactly where he was - and he had also located him seemingly before he made the call, indicating that the location was known to him.

This is a good point. I think that's why he said "You're not gonna believe this," because it hadn't ever been done before. And Link probably wouldn't have been able to get a fix without Neo's call (I get this from his furious punching of buttons as he spoke to Neo). I think that the Mero's connection to the Chateau is only using the backdoors and Neo made more of a 'direct' connection to Matrix from The Frenchman's hideaway. I mean, if the place was that easily located, wouldn't the Machines have destroyed him?

[CoZ]LostProphet

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Shi Xin Feng wrote:
[CoZLostProphet] wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
As far as 'exceding the limits of the Matrix', let's examine the scenario:
The Matrix simulation stops beyond the surrounding country-side. People must be able to travel beyond the city; that's undeniable human nature. The Machines must have come up with a way for both to occur, for the purposes of efficiency.
People who 'exit' the limits of the simulation are put into a deep, coma-like sleep for the real-time length of their departure from the simulation. Those that 'live' outside the city are either kept asleep, or are simply replaced with programs.
That's a workable solution (as I addressed in the OP), but my question (hypothetical I guess, as we'll never truly know!) would be: why? Why keep a section of the population 'awake', and the rest 'asleep'?
Does the 1% that reject the simulation only come from the 'awake' people - and if this is the case, why not keep everyone 'asleep' and avoid the whole mess of Zion and the One and so forth.
If not - what happens if the 'One' turns out to be in the 'asleep' portion of the population - is he/she just inserted straight into the source with no knowledge of what is happening, or is their 'departure' to the MegaCity engineered so that they then 'awake' and set the cycle in motion?
Well, let's say a blue-pill has to fly to 'Paris' for a two-week trip. Easy, 2 week coma - memory install. An exchange-student goes to Espania for 3 months, well, a little harder to do, but same thing-sleep and memory install, with a program that might 'keep in touch' with the parents at regular intervals.
But a mover is harder to do. Someone who moves out of the city would simply be recycled for the sake of efficiency. After all, it's not like bodies for the power plant are in short supply. Then, they would be replaced by the 'keep in touch' program.
The One is a design facet of the Matrix. Although the Machines don't know who has manifested the power of the One, they know when and how. Therefore, they have a measure of control over who (general population) gets to manifest as the One. I would think that it would be those who are predisposed to remain in the city,

If they return to the simulation, their minds are impregnated with constructed memories of the trip. This is easily done, as the mind recalls memory in fragments anyway.
Physical locations outside the simulation exist. . .as constructs. The Chateau is constructed by the Merovingian as a place to hide. It was likely that no operative had ever been there, and Neo was the first to 'connect' the construct to the simulation.
That's a really interesting theory, but Link seemed to know exactly what was up. As soon as Neo asked where he was (and was still within the boundaries of the Chateau), Link seemed to know exactly where he was - and he had also located him seemingly before he made the call, indicating that the location was known to him.

This is a good point. I think that's why he said "You're not gonna believe this," because it hadn't ever been done before. And Link probably wouldn't have been able to get a fix without Neo's call (I get this from his furious punching of buttons as he spoke to Neo). I think that the Mero's connection to the Chateau is only using the backdoors and Neo made more of a 'direct' connection to Matrix from The Frenchman's hideaway. I mean, if the place was that easily located, wouldn't the Machines have destroyed him?

Those are compelling arguments ...

... dammit SMILEY