I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak.
Hmm, now that's a good idea. Scratch that. That's a really really really good idea.
The only problem is that with the way the NPC's currently are, its near impossible to sneak in a mission area at a low lvl without being detected and popped out of sneak. If the NPC's detection was lowered, or sneak attacks only worked out of disguise on NPC's, I think it would work.
Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy. I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time. You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on. I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this). You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat. Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is! Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system! ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))
Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy.
I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time.
You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on.
I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this).
You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat. Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.
Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is! Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)
Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system! ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))
Arcanoloth wrote:Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy. I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time. You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on.So what your saying is that MKT's Need to have uber accurate specials cause their free fire sucks. Well colour me surprised but as far as I'm concerned MA's have a free fire attack that sucks, they have to get within melee range of you and with other gunman/MKT's/Hackers having access to a plethora of slowing/rooting moves this can be very very hard to do. What about hackers? The have nothing to fall back onto either but are they super accurate? Thats a big fat NO, everyone else even has the luxury of having perma hyper-deflect making life even harder for hackers, who also suffer from a *CENSORED* free fire attack, worse than MKT actually, at least MKT's have a high ballistic damage, hackers get nothing but melee accuracy, and what kind of self respecting hacker would want to melee someone when they have run out of IS? Is it not unreasonable to assume that if your defense is equal to their accuracy then you can dodge half their attacks, that seems pretty *CENSORED* reasonable and logical to me. This super high accuracy of MKT's also gives them an outright advantage in IL, cause they are more accurate than any other tree ability spamming is distinctly in their favour. They will outroll your accuracy far more often and roll right over any specials you try. That is a self defeating statement you made there. I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this). You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat.Is that even addressing my point, what I have been saying is MKT's IS costs are far too low, even when they are debuffed so IS costs are extremely high they seem to be able to spam with the rest of them. Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is! Read my words next time, blue MKT's in disguise have a free ticket to 1000+ damage with a punt, there is NO way to stop someone who you can't shoot. I said BLUE MKT's, BLUE, NOT FLAGGED UP, NOT PVP FLAGGED, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LITTLE GUN SYMBOL NEXT TO THEIR NAME. And even if they are PvP is extremely hectic, an MA is running at you full blast, you try to root them, they deflect it and bust your shield, you hit them with a code root and back up, suddenly an MKT running a million miles an hour IN A DISGUISE comes up beside you and punts you, theres not a thing you can do when your shield was busted only 5 seconds ago, and because they are in disguise they they can cross the battlefield in the blink of an eye and punt you (With hyperspeed of course). They don't even need to be behind you, they can be practically in front of you and get the punt off. In mass PvP the lag also messes with you, you think you got away, *rubber band* oh snap no I got punted. Look at what you are saying, OF COURSE I HAVE EVADE, its has a 30 second reuse timer. What do you want me to do, HJ away the moment my shield is down? Cause as long as my shield is down you can guarantee all the scavenger MKT's will come and Punt me from behind, beside or almost directly in front of me. Theres no use timer on it either, so it is so quick NO ONE can avoid it unless they have their shield up. If they coordinated it so the MKT was in sneak behind me, props to them, that is actual skill, but an MKT can stand on the flanks in a disguise watching an MA, doesn't even have to be the same org as them, the moment they break a shield they run into the battle clicking on the punt button until they get into range and punt the unfortunate victim. Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system!Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity? ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))Spy is a pvp build NOT a duelling build and there is quite a bit of difference, in situations where battles rage the disguise is essential because sneak is too slow...you need to withdraw from the field away from foes and engage and get back to your target etc without stealth breaking.
Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy. I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time. You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on.So what your saying is that MKT's Need to have uber accurate specials cause their free fire sucks. Well colour me surprised but as far as I'm concerned MA's have a free fire attack that sucks, they have to get within melee range of you and with other gunman/MKT's/Hackers having access to a plethora of slowing/rooting moves this can be very very hard to do. What about hackers? The have nothing to fall back onto either but are they super accurate? Thats a big fat NO, everyone else even has the luxury of having perma hyper-deflect making life even harder for hackers, who also suffer from a *CENSORED* free fire attack, worse than MKT actually, at least MKT's have a high ballistic damage, hackers get nothing but melee accuracy, and what kind of self respecting hacker would want to melee someone when they have run out of IS? Is it not unreasonable to assume that if your defense is equal to their accuracy then you can dodge half their attacks, that seems pretty *CENSORED* reasonable and logical to me. This super high accuracy of MKT's also gives them an outright advantage in IL, cause they are more accurate than any other tree ability spamming is distinctly in their favour. They will outroll your accuracy far more often and roll right over any specials you try. That is a self defeating statement you made there. I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this). You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat.Is that even addressing my point, what I have been saying is MKT's IS costs are far too low, even when they are debuffed so IS costs are extremely high they seem to be able to spam with the rest of them. Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is! Read my words next time, blue MKT's in disguise have a free ticket to 1000+ damage with a punt, there is NO way to stop someone who you can't shoot. I said BLUE MKT's, BLUE, NOT FLAGGED UP, NOT PVP FLAGGED, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LITTLE GUN SYMBOL NEXT TO THEIR NAME. And even if they are PvP is extremely hectic, an MA is running at you full blast, you try to root them, they deflect it and bust your shield, you hit them with a code root and back up, suddenly an MKT running a million miles an hour IN A DISGUISE comes up beside you and punts you, theres not a thing you can do when your shield was busted only 5 seconds ago, and because they are in disguise they they can cross the battlefield in the blink of an eye and punt you (With hyperspeed of course). They don't even need to be behind you, they can be practically in front of you and get the punt off. In mass PvP the lag also messes with you, you think you got away, *rubber band* oh snap no I got punted. Look at what you are saying, OF COURSE I HAVE EVADE, its has a 30 second reuse timer. What do you want me to do, HJ away the moment my shield is down? Cause as long as my shield is down you can guarantee all the scavenger MKT's will come and Punt me from behind, beside or almost directly in front of me. Theres no use timer on it either, so it is so quick NO ONE can avoid it unless they have their shield up. If they coordinated it so the MKT was in sneak behind me, props to them, that is actual skill, but an MKT can stand on the flanks in a disguise watching an MA, doesn't even have to be the same org as them, the moment they break a shield they run into the battle clicking on the punt button until they get into range and punt the unfortunate victim. Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system!Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity? ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))
So what your saying is that MKT's Need to have uber accurate specials cause their free fire sucks. Well colour me surprised but as far as I'm concerned MA's have a free fire attack that sucks, they have to get within melee range of you and with other gunman/MKT's/Hackers having access to a plethora of slowing/rooting moves this can be very very hard to do. What about hackers? The have nothing to fall back onto either but are they super accurate? Thats a big fat NO, everyone else even has the luxury of having perma hyper-deflect making life even harder for hackers, who also suffer from a *CENSORED* free fire attack, worse than MKT actually, at least MKT's have a high ballistic damage, hackers get nothing but melee accuracy, and what kind of self respecting hacker would want to melee someone when they have run out of IS? Is it not unreasonable to assume that if your defense is equal to their accuracy then you can dodge half their attacks, that seems pretty *CENSORED* reasonable and logical to me.
This super high accuracy of MKT's also gives them an outright advantage in IL, cause they are more accurate than any other tree ability spamming is distinctly in their favour. They will outroll your accuracy far more often and roll right over any specials you try. That is a self defeating statement you made there.
You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat.
Is that even addressing my point, what I have been saying is MKT's IS costs are far too low, even when they are debuffed so IS costs are extremely high they seem to be able to spam with the rest of them.
Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.
Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is!
Read my words next time, blue MKT's in disguise have a free ticket to 1000+ damage with a punt, there is NO way to stop someone who you can't shoot. I said BLUE MKT's, BLUE, NOT FLAGGED UP, NOT PVP FLAGGED, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LITTLE GUN SYMBOL NEXT TO THEIR NAME. And even if they are PvP is extremely hectic, an MA is running at you full blast, you try to root them, they deflect it and bust your shield, you hit them with a code root and back up, suddenly an MKT running a million miles an hour IN A DISGUISE comes up beside you and punts you, theres not a thing you can do when your shield was busted only 5 seconds ago, and because they are in disguise they they can cross the battlefield in the blink of an eye and punt you (With hyperspeed of course). They don't even need to be behind you, they can be practically in front of you and get the punt off. In mass PvP the lag also messes with you, you think you got away, *rubber band* oh snap no I got punted. Look at what you are saying, OF COURSE I HAVE EVADE, its has a 30 second reuse timer. What do you want me to do, HJ away the moment my shield is down? Cause as long as my shield is down you can guarantee all the scavenger MKT's will come and Punt me from behind, beside or almost directly in front of me. Theres no use timer on it either, so it is so quick NO ONE can avoid it unless they have their shield up. If they coordinated it so the MKT was in sneak behind me, props to them, that is actual skill, but an MKT can stand on the flanks in a disguise watching an MA, doesn't even have to be the same org as them, the moment they break a shield they run into the battle clicking on the punt button until they get into range and punt the unfortunate victim. Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)
Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system!
Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity? ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))
Everyone and anyone can 'blueshot'. Spies can Punt, Hackers can Logic Cannon, Snipers can Snipe and the list goes on. Also, if you're outnumbered - vs an MA and a spy as per your scenario - then expect to be killed. That's your problem, not the game system's.
Arcanoloth wrote:Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity?
Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity?
I was going to write a fuller reply but MAVE pretty much covered it in a well worded reply above. For the record I come from Vector and didnt pick up the concept of blue-shots, I apologise for that misunderstanding but that issue is not spy specific and I would support a change to the mechanism by which players invoke pvp in order to eliminate that very cheap behaviour on non-hostile worlds.
I have always conceded there are aspects that require balancing but that applies to all trees and certainly the recent re-emergence of hacker as a valid pvp build suggests there is more depth to pvp that needs understanding before that balance takes place. Further changes suggested elsewehere for multi-fighting, the change of how hypers apply etc could have more benefit to everyday pvp and significantly change the balance of all trees, that argument needs careful study, before the nerf issue rises again.
I havent a clue what I was supposed to make of the statement 'i didnt mean those lines above' it certainly wasnt clear to me and again I apologise - it wasn't my intention to give this impression but your own aggressive tone hasnt helped to dispel the possibility!
GypsyJuggler wrote:Everyone and anyone can 'blueshot'. Spies can Punt, Hackers can Logic Cannon, Snipers can Snipe and the list goes on. Also, if you're outnumbered - vs an MA and a spy as per your scenario - then expect to be killed. That's your problem, not the game system's. QFMFT Arcanoloth: If you're angry about a spy blue shotting...let me say this as nicely as I can.... HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAH Okay...seriously. Blue shotting is not a valid excuse. Everyone can blue shot. If your grief is a blue shot, go to Vector. Otherwise, stop crying. Seriously...The downside of PvP being on a Normal Server....is a BLUE SHOT! =O Anyway with that out of the way, let me address a few issues. Defense: There is already a thread discussing making it so you can run only two defenses at a time, instead of just Hyper Deflect + any other three. Why not support that so you can run HyperSense+Any Extra one? That would help wouldn't it? Also, add extra points to thrown defense the styles in game. But only a small amount, because defense should mainly come from Attributes + Hyper (Fill In Blank Here). Inefficiency field helps a lot. Trust me. But you know what else helps? Zone Of Powerlessness. Wanna drop an MKT from throwing knives? ZoP, Slow, move back, Logic Canon 2.0. And as a hacker, if you can't take an MKT, you really need practice. On Recursion, we have real good hackers who know what they're doing. Overpowered? No. Spy itself isn't overpowered. It's certain abilities like Neuro Dart that are overpowered. High accuracy? Have you seen some of these people who aren't spy that have Super High Accuracy with Ballisitc? Why not nerf their accuracy? =O But no....this game has become a MA + Guns game. I'm spy. Learn to deal with it. Nerf it all you want. I'll adapt regardless. But don't expect me to keep quiet when we get Unfair nerfs. Oh...and an Idea about Thrown Accuracy in IL. You want lower Accuracy in IL? Give us higher sucess rates on Rollout abilities? Seems only fair since we're not an IL class. And Disguises shouldn't count? Ummmm No. It's a Spy Ability which we can use. There is nothing wrong with a spy using disguise. I think this has become a personal thing against Spy loadouts, and not a logical one anymore. So I'll sit back and enjoy the show. ::drinks lemonade::
Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did) ((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))
Nice one Mave, be a demeaning *CENSORED* and think I will back down? Ummmmm no. I laugh because you cry about blue shotting on a NON-HOSTILE Server. That alone is worth a few chuckles. For the record, I do ZoP, I do Bottleneck Field, I do Inefficiency Field, but the moment most MKT's see me they pop an Anti so my debuffs will be wiped in an instant and then all that hard work does nothing. I doubt one anti wipes out ALL those effects. You have Slow, Bottleneck, And like 3 specific root abilities. Use them. About thrown acc in IL, thats a good idea, make them suck in IL and then give them better rollout abilities. Make them suck in IL? No. Rather, lower their accuracy in IL but makes rolls outs higher. If you have LITTLE to NO thrown defense, you should get hit in IL by knives for not preparing. About Blue Shots, I still maintain Spy's have the best Blue Shots. Punt has NO, (Thats right, none at all) use timer, so the INSTANT you click it, you punt someone. Want me to blue shot a Logic Cannon, sure, stand still for several seconds whilst I charge it, no no, don't move out of range, aww you avoided it by moving out of range, thats unfair. I want instant logic cannons for 1000+ dmg just like punt. Snipers, the noobs who stand still in Mara C deserve to be sniped, but again, all you have to do is move out of range while they are buffing up and it ruins the entire sniper shot. What about MA's, oh gods thats so powerful their blue shot, melee free fire needs to be nerfed. Wow, other classes really have amazingly overpowered blue shots, not nearly as good as some hyena of an MKT standing around in the middle of raging PvP not flagged up in a disguise waiting for a shield to break. So the fact that we need an opponent NOT to be in IL and NOT to have a shield makes no difference. If you're counting "Zerg" scenarios, let's count this one? I end up ILed with person A. Person A has a friend (Person B) who is a hacker. When I get ILed, person B starts to cast Logic Cannon 2.0, Bam I get hit. Or how about Double Sniper Shots? Two people time Sniper Shots, they can go off very close to each other, Bam I died, or am hurt really bad. You're telling me I instantly punt, and my friend can instantly punt 1 second later, despite the fact that I'm still ILed? There is a lot more potential with Out of IL Specials like Logic Cannon, Sniper Shot, Full Auto Redux Etc, than punt. ::chuckles:: Also, for the love of Neo, Please don't bring up Blue Shotting again. Blue Shotting has NOTHING to do with Spy Nerfs. I'll said it once and I'll say it again. You angry about Blue Shots? GO.....TO......VECTOR...... I already posted in the thread about defense abilities aswell, I really am looking for a solution but sometimes peoples replies really *CENSORED* me off. So, Possible solutions: Nerf them in IL, give them an accuracy downgrade, this would require the rollout abilities be improved. Wait a sec, hackers get an accuracy downgrade but no rollout abilities <----Sarcasm. I've seen some Hackers completely OWN in IL against an MA. It's all about Accuracy Vs. Defense. Not to mention DoTs do a lot of damage from Hackers because they Stack. Sarcasm noted, but pretty useless there. Nerf their sneak attacks, require them to actually BE IN SNEAK, rather than a stupid agent or hel club guard disguise everyone knows about. I am SNEAKING around in a Disguise, or at least the Game Engine says I'm sneaking around. Problem solved. Nerf their knives, make them cost more IS so they can't spam ALL THE TIME and actually have to consider what to do. Nerf the Knives? We just had a patch a while back that dropped our IS costs because why? Oh that's right, we have NO FREE FIRE! So we COMPLETELY depend on our special abilities to do ANY damage at all. Increase other trees thrown defense, give them a defense score that can actually dodge knives. A little addition is fine with me. But to dodge knives? No. You need to load up Hyper Sense and Thrown Resistance. You main defense should come from Attributes + Hyper (Insert Ability Here), which is influenced by Attributes.. I'm not saying do all of those, I'm not saying turn them into data miners. I think implementing one of those will be enough to quell most complainers, myself included. Not really, because then it'll be US complaining, or X people complaining about a new UBAR powerful tree. It never ends really.
Hey Mave, that looks like victory lemonade to me, mind if I have a sip?
Oh boy...I'm gonna have fun with this one....::puts down Lemonade:: Arcanoloth wrote:Nice one Mave, be a demeaning *CENSORED* and think I will back down? Ummmmm no. I laugh because you cry about blue shotting on a NON-HOSTILE Server. That alone is worth a few chuckles. For the record, I do ZoP, I do Bottleneck Field, I do Inefficiency Field, but the moment most MKT's see me they pop an Anti so my debuffs will be wiped in an instant and then all that hard work does nothing. I doubt one anti wipes out ALL those effects. You have Slow, Bottleneck, And like 3 specific root abilities. Use them. Doesn't wipe them ALL, but they only need to wipe the rooting effect or the powerless effect. They can run away or recommence spamming, either way those Anti's make my life very hard. I can't exactly pop pills to reduce your spamming. About thrown acc in IL, thats a good idea, make them suck in IL and then give them better rollout abilities. Make them suck in IL? No. Rather, lower their accuracy in IL but makes rolls outs higher. If you have LITTLE to NO thrown defense, you should get hit in IL by knives for not preparing. You must have missed my posts about having a thrown defense of 140 and using block tactics, FYI I have a thrown resist of 180+ aswell, I DO prepare for the MKT Zerg. Of course I didn't mean make them *poop* horrible in IL but perhaps an accuracy debuff in IL is in order. About Blue Shots, I still maintain Spy's have the best Blue Shots. Punt has NO, (Thats right, none at all) use timer, so the INSTANT you click it, you punt someone. Want me to blue shot a Logic Cannon, sure, stand still for several seconds whilst I charge it, no no, don't move out of range, aww you avoided it by moving out of range, thats unfair. I want instant logic cannons for 1000+ dmg just like punt. Snipers, the noobs who stand still in Mara C deserve to be sniped, but again, all you have to do is move out of range while they are buffing up and it ruins the entire sniper shot. What about MA's, oh gods thats so powerful their blue shot, melee free fire needs to be nerfed. Wow, other classes really have amazingly overpowered blue shots, not nearly as good as some hyena of an MKT standing around in the middle of raging PvP not flagged up in a disguise waiting for a shield to break. So the fact that we need an opponent NOT to be in IL and NOT to have a shield makes no difference. If you're counting "Zerg" scenarios, let's count this one? I end up ILed with person A. Person A has a friend (Person B) who is a hacker. When I get ILed, person B starts to cast Logic Cannon 2.0, Bam I get hit. Or how about Double Sniper Shots? Two people time Sniper Shots, they can go off very close to each other, Bam I died, or am hurt really bad. You're telling me I instantly punt, and my friend can instantly punt 1 second later, despite the fact that I'm still ILed? There is a lot more potential with Out of IL Specials like Logic Cannon, Sniper Shot, Full Auto Redux Etc, than punt. ::chuckles:: Also, for the love of Neo, Please don't bring up Blue Shotting again. Blue Shotting has NOTHING to do with Spy Nerfs. I'll said it once and I'll say it again. You angry about Blue Shots? GO.....TO......VECTOR...... Again you fail to understand my point, there is no warning before a punt comes your way, with Logic Cannon's you see them cast, with sniper shots you may not see them all the time but they still take time to do them. And I did mention that MKT's WAIT for the shield to be busted. There is a 5 second re-use timer on IL attempts, so the MA busts your shield and the MKT has a nice friendly 5 second buffer to punt you while your still trying to keep the MA from ILing you. You are aware staggering throw can be used out of IL and does somewhere around 800 dmg to most people? If not you should be glad, I just made you that much better at MKT. I already posted in the thread about defense abilities aswell, I really am looking for a solution but sometimes peoples replies really *CENSORED* me off. So, Possible solutions: Nerf them in IL, give them an accuracy downgrade, this would require the rollout abilities be improved. Wait a sec, hackers get an accuracy downgrade but no rollout abilities <----Sarcasm. I've seen some Hackers completely OWN in IL against an MA. It's all about Accuracy Vs. Defense. Not to mention DoTs do a lot of damage from Hackers because they Stack. Sarcasm noted, but pretty useless there. Again, as soon as most people see myself or my hacker faction mates they pop an anti, anti's can wipe the DOT effects. And that acuracy bonus in the ballista tree only lasts for 20 seconds so you had better hope they don't punch catch you or render you powerless otherwise you will be screwed. Nerf their sneak attacks, require them to actually BE IN SNEAK, rather than a stupid agent or hel club guard disguise everyone knows about. I am SNEAKING around in a Disguise, or at least the Game Engine says I'm sneaking around. Problem solved. Maybe the game engine needs to change so disguises don't work vs PC's, just some food for thought. Nerf their knives, make them cost more IS so they can't spam ALL THE TIME and actually have to consider what to do. Nerf the Knives? We just had a patch a while back that dropped our IS costs because why? Oh that's right, we have NO FREE FIRE! So we COMPLETELY depend on our special abilities to do ANY damage at all. Hacker's have a *poop* free fire, do you see them getting IS costs reduced, do you see them with uber accuracy? Everyone else gets hyper-deflect on at all times and hackers accuracy is rather poor compared to MKT's, so hackers have a hard time hitting people AND they have a worse free fire than MKT's. I posted about this to Tytanya but you obviously missed it. MA's free fire is rather poor, hackers free fire is completely useless, the only people with a good free fire attack is Gunmen. Do hackers and MA's have uber accuracy and low IS costs for all their attacks? You want low IS and superb accuracy to make up for your bad free fire, lets make it even and give MA's and hackers a top notch accuracy and lower IS costs for them. Must I make this any more clear to you??? Increase other trees thrown defense, give them a defense score that can actually dodge knives. A little addition is fine with me. But to dodge knives? No. You need to load up Hyper Sense and Thrown Resistance. You main defense should come from Attributes + Hyper (Insert Ability Here), which is influenced by Attributes.. Again you missed the part where I said Aikido GM with reason of 20 or hacker with reason of 30 is still not enough to fight MKT's high accuracy. Don't go around assuming I'm a noob wearing only armoured RocaWear clothing and having a Thrown resist of 0 taking 2k from punts and thinking their overpowered. I have a thrown resist of 180, I have a thrown defense of 140, but its still not enough even when I debuff their accuracy they hit me very often. I'm not saying do all of those, I'm not saying turn them into data miners. I think implementing one of those will be enough to quell most complainers, myself included. Not really, because then it'll be US complaining, or X people complaining about a new UBAR powerful tree. It never ends really. Most people admit adding some extra thrown defense will help all trees vs MKT's and balance the system a lot, so maybe they can find a fix for it. Its up to us to come to an agreement about what would be fair. Now I'm not saying, BOO Don't Nerf Spies, Keep up teh |337 H@x0rz of MxO! No, I'm looking for a good solution as well, but so far, I've heard very few. SPY ITSELF is not the problem. It's the ability to recast Neuro Dart while it's still having it's effect run on you. But anyway, I'm done. Back to my lemonade. ::picks lemonade back up and takes a sip::
Nice one Mave, be a demeaning *CENSORED* and think I will back down? Ummmmm no. I laugh because you cry about blue shotting on a NON-HOSTILE Server. That alone is worth a few chuckles. For the record, I do ZoP, I do Bottleneck Field, I do Inefficiency Field, but the moment most MKT's see me they pop an Anti so my debuffs will be wiped in an instant and then all that hard work does nothing. I doubt one anti wipes out ALL those effects. You have Slow, Bottleneck, And like 3 specific root abilities. Use them. Doesn't wipe them ALL, but they only need to wipe the rooting effect or the powerless effect. They can run away or recommence spamming, either way those Anti's make my life very hard. I can't exactly pop pills to reduce your spamming. About thrown acc in IL, thats a good idea, make them suck in IL and then give them better rollout abilities. Make them suck in IL? No. Rather, lower their accuracy in IL but makes rolls outs higher. If you have LITTLE to NO thrown defense, you should get hit in IL by knives for not preparing. You must have missed my posts about having a thrown defense of 140 and using block tactics, FYI I have a thrown resist of 180+ aswell, I DO prepare for the MKT Zerg. Of course I didn't mean make them *poop* horrible in IL but perhaps an accuracy debuff in IL is in order. About Blue Shots, I still maintain Spy's have the best Blue Shots. Punt has NO, (Thats right, none at all) use timer, so the INSTANT you click it, you punt someone. Want me to blue shot a Logic Cannon, sure, stand still for several seconds whilst I charge it, no no, don't move out of range, aww you avoided it by moving out of range, thats unfair. I want instant logic cannons for 1000+ dmg just like punt. Snipers, the noobs who stand still in Mara C deserve to be sniped, but again, all you have to do is move out of range while they are buffing up and it ruins the entire sniper shot. What about MA's, oh gods thats so powerful their blue shot, melee free fire needs to be nerfed. Wow, other classes really have amazingly overpowered blue shots, not nearly as good as some hyena of an MKT standing around in the middle of raging PvP not flagged up in a disguise waiting for a shield to break. So the fact that we need an opponent NOT to be in IL and NOT to have a shield makes no difference. If you're counting "Zerg" scenarios, let's count this one? I end up ILed with person A. Person A has a friend (Person B) who is a hacker. When I get ILed, person B starts to cast Logic Cannon 2.0, Bam I get hit. Or how about Double Sniper Shots? Two people time Sniper Shots, they can go off very close to each other, Bam I died, or am hurt really bad. You're telling me I instantly punt, and my friend can instantly punt 1 second later, despite the fact that I'm still ILed? There is a lot more potential with Out of IL Specials like Logic Cannon, Sniper Shot, Full Auto Redux Etc, than punt. ::chuckles:: Also, for the love of Neo, Please don't bring up Blue Shotting again. Blue Shotting has NOTHING to do with Spy Nerfs. I'll said it once and I'll say it again. You angry about Blue Shots? GO.....TO......VECTOR...... Again you fail to understand my point, there is no warning before a punt comes your way, with Logic Cannon's you see them cast, with sniper shots you may not see them all the time but they still take time to do them. And I did mention that MKT's WAIT for the shield to be busted. There is a 5 second re-use timer on IL attempts, so the MA busts your shield and the MKT has a nice friendly 5 second buffer to punt you while your still trying to keep the MA from ILing you. You are aware staggering throw can be used out of IL and does somewhere around 800 dmg to most people? If not you should be glad, I just made you that much better at MKT. I already posted in the thread about defense abilities aswell, I really am looking for a solution but sometimes peoples replies really *CENSORED* me off. So, Possible solutions: Nerf them in IL, give them an accuracy downgrade, this would require the rollout abilities be improved. Wait a sec, hackers get an accuracy downgrade but no rollout abilities <----Sarcasm. I've seen some Hackers completely OWN in IL against an MA. It's all about Accuracy Vs. Defense. Not to mention DoTs do a lot of damage from Hackers because they Stack. Sarcasm noted, but pretty useless there. Again, as soon as most people see myself or my hacker faction mates they pop an anti, anti's can wipe the DOT effects. And that acuracy bonus in the ballista tree only lasts for 20 seconds so you had better hope they don't punch catch you or render you powerless otherwise you will be screwed. Nerf their sneak attacks, require them to actually BE IN SNEAK, rather than a stupid agent or hel club guard disguise everyone knows about. I am SNEAKING around in a Disguise, or at least the Game Engine says I'm sneaking around. Problem solved. Maybe the game engine needs to change so disguises don't work vs PC's, just some food for thought. Nerf their knives, make them cost more IS so they can't spam ALL THE TIME and actually have to consider what to do. Nerf the Knives? We just had a patch a while back that dropped our IS costs because why? Oh that's right, we have NO FREE FIRE! So we COMPLETELY depend on our special abilities to do ANY damage at all. Hacker's have a *poop* free fire, do you see them getting IS costs reduced, do you see them with uber accuracy? Everyone else gets hyper-deflect on at all times and hackers accuracy is rather poor compared to MKT's, so hackers have a hard time hitting people AND they have a worse free fire than MKT's. I posted about this to Tytanya but you obviously missed it. MA's free fire is rather poor, hackers free fire is completely useless, the only people with a good free fire attack is Gunmen. Do hackers and MA's have uber accuracy and low IS costs for all their attacks? You want low IS and superb accuracy to make up for your bad free fire, lets make it even and give MA's and hackers a top notch accuracy and lower IS costs for them. Must I make this any more clear to you??? Increase other trees thrown defense, give them a defense score that can actually dodge knives. A little addition is fine with me. But to dodge knives? No. You need to load up Hyper Sense and Thrown Resistance. You main defense should come from Attributes + Hyper (Insert Ability Here), which is influenced by Attributes.. Again you missed the part where I said Aikido GM with reason of 20 or hacker with reason of 30 is still not enough to fight MKT's high accuracy. Don't go around assuming I'm a noob wearing only armoured RocaWear clothing and having a Thrown resist of 0 taking 2k from punts and thinking their overpowered. I have a thrown resist of 180, I have a thrown defense of 140, but its still not enough even when I debuff their accuracy they hit me very often. I'm not saying do all of those, I'm not saying turn them into data miners. I think implementing one of those will be enough to quell most complainers, myself included. Not really, because then it'll be US complaining, or X people complaining about a new UBAR powerful tree. It never ends really. Most people admit adding some extra thrown defense will help all trees vs MKT's and balance the system a lot, so maybe they can find a fix for it. Its up to us to come to an agreement about what would be fair.
actually you can cast sneak logic cannon 2.0's can you not? so that can hide you also.
I've not bothered to read anything previous to this last page so if i miss something, bare with me because it seems to be the same *poop* different page.
Disguise is called a disguise because you are hiding from someone, you are hiding yourself to attack them.. by suprise. So don't remove disguise because it makes perfect sense for it to be there. MKT/Assassin is all about sneak attacks and the element of suprise. I rarely load thrown defence clothes at all, if anything just the defence move and i can still block punts/out roll in combat, and as a gunman MKT is supposed to be my weakness.
It sounds like to me in part, some of the frustration is that logic cannons are visible, load sneak.
actually you can cast sneak logic cannon 2.0's can you not? so that can hide you also.I've not bothered to read anything previous to this last page so if i miss something, bare with me because it seems to be the same *CENSORED* different page.Disguise is called a disguise because you are hiding from someone, you are hiding yourself to attack them.. by suprise. So don't remove disguise because it makes perfect sense for it to be there. MKT/Assassin is all about sneak attacks and the element of suprise. I rarely load thrown defence clothes at all, if anything just the defence move and i can still block punts/out roll in combat, and as a gunman MKT is supposed to be my weakness.It sounds like to me in part, some of the frustration is that logic cannons are visible, load sneak.
I've not bothered to read anything previous to this last page so if i miss something, bare with me because it seems to be the same *CENSORED* different page.
Why load sneak and Logic Cannon when I could just take up MKT like 80% of the other players have and use Punt, which BTW is a whole pile better than a sneak logic cannon. Again, disguises make it far too easy for MKT's to punt people, break shield, root them with a throw, 10 steps back, put a disguise on IN CLEAR VIEW of the opponent run back and punt them from in front of them. I wish I could do that with logic cannon, but instead it has a several second cast timer that gives them plenty of time to take precautions to prevent you from succeeding or to lesson the impact of it. As a matter of fact, in the time it takes me to cast it you could run to a HL and load up the resistance buff in the awakened tree (Clear Mind?) and activate it before I'm finished.
