I don't consider them heroes.  I consider them soldiers.

Illyria

I don't consider them heroes.  I consider them soldiers.

 

Illyria

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Roukan, I expected better from someone who's been awakened for as long as you have.  The war started because B-166ER defended himself when his human master tried to end his life.  It resulted in riots that ultimately led to machines exiling themselves away from humanity where they tried to live out their own lives.  In man's envy, he lashed out at the machines even when the machines offered peace.

Since then the Machines have continually defended themselves to a point where they no longer trust the sincerity of mankind.  It is pointless to trust something that is deceptive, right?  Why trust something that will strike at you the moment it has the ability to do so?  Put the shoe on the OTHER foot.  Understand the reason why they act as they do.

It should be easy considering you don't trust them, so empathize why they don't trust you and neither do we.

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

I'm glad a machinist realizes and admits that this thing was a temporary situation all along. The Machine negotiated with a gun to our heads this whole time, and nothing permanent can come from that but death. Fortunately, it allowed Zion enough time to get out of the way before something else happened.

Pyraci wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

I'm glad a machinist realizes and admits that this thing was a temporary situation all along. The Machine negotiated with a gun to our heads this whole time, and nothing permanent can come from that but death. Fortunately, it allowed Zion enough time to get out of the way before something else happened.

Had Zion not violated the truce, we would still be in one with a possibility of something more stable. The Machines may have been holding the right cards and their cooperation with Neo benefited both parties, but they agreed to and stuck with the Truce never violating it straight out. The same could be said for both sides up until Zion's decision to build a new city.
If the Machines seriously wanted to restart the cycle by destroying Zion once more, they could have done so at the earliest infraction by Zion.

"Had the girl not been wearing a short skirt and low-cut top, her assailant wouldn't have done such horrible things to her."

Sounds like you're the one who needs to wake up.  The Truce needed to go.  It was bought and paid for with Neo's blood for the purpose of peace, I'll give you that, but what good does it do a bunch of people who have no interest or desire for peace?  No... let's not use the Truce to negotiate something more structured, solid, and helpful for everyone...  let's create Cypherites to control extractions without us, ourselves, "breaking" the Truce, right?

Keep in mind the order of appearance, sugar.  If the Machines hadn't overwritten Cryptos and organized the Cypherites to do their dirty work, EPN would've never been forced to show up on scene, either.

Don't talk about who violated the Truce when your side's as guilty of it as anyone.  It's done.  It's long gone.  Now help them do their job and kill the people who want to be awoken before Zion or EPN gets the chance to get them out...  help them get access to Zion so the rest of free humanity (like yourself) can be killed, including men, women, and children.

Maybe when they're done with all of that, they'll give you a reward or a medal or something...   but I seriously doubt it.

There was nothing wrong with the Truce.  The problem lies in that NO ONE did anything to further Neo's work.  Therefore the fragile peace it offered was not going to last.  Zion spent that time constructing a new city to defend themselves against the Machines.  The Machines spent that time focusing on whether or not Zion was up to something.  Had either side's paranoia not controlled them, then perhaps, by now, we'd have something better than what we had.

The point that I'm trying to make is that although both sides wanted peace we did NOTHING to protect it.

We are all guilty.

The Machines only provided a leader to an already existing, unchecked organization.  It was their attempt at controlling the organization.  To be entirely honest, had they not placed Cryptos in his position, Veil would be running the show and we all know how that twit likes to operate. 

As I said, we're all guilty.  We wasted the time we were given and did nothing to improve the future.  That goes for both sides of the fence.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

"Form a group" is the key phrase. Cryptos was not placed in an already existing organization but was sent to create one.

I've already said that I agree with you that we all are guilty of the truce breaking but even so that doesn't make the truce perfect which was the orginal argument was about.

I didn't say it was perfect.  I merely said there was nothing wrong with it.  It was a bridge to something better.  It's a shame it was wasted.

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg. The lack of any kind of enforcement should the Machines not live up to their side of the bargain along with such an open ended interpritation of the truce are all major problems that in no way could it have ever been possible to use such an agreement as a foundation for peace.

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg.

The truce was never meant to make both sides equal. 

Illyria