[8.2.5] We still haven't found Commander Lock - Syntax - 9/24/07

**PS10N** · 09/29/2007 11:58:57

>>Overwriting Redpills violated the Truce
>Debatable.
Not debatable, it was an act of war, period. The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did . If you don't think so, come to our lab and we'll over write your mind until you agree, since mind-*CENSORED* seems to be all okie-dokey fine with you; not surprising considering how brainwashed you sound.

>>Funding a secret undercover sub-org to murder people in their sleep violated the Truce
>I don't recall the Machines doing that. Oh, yeah, they did create a secret sub-org that was meant to keep the Redpill population stable through elegant speeches and a little trickery, but never murder. The Cypherites went crazy and chose to do that themselves. The Machines disapprove of this.
You don't recall very well. The Masked Men (same as the Cypherites, despite lies to the contrary) planted bombs they got from the Machines on the hulls of ships to kill people in their sleep. You obviously weren't here or weren't paying attention when all these murders took place, or you choose to ignore the truth, just like the Machines who are incapable of distinguishing what truth is. To the Machine "mind" there is no truth or untruth, everything is data and every perception is virtual, therefore there is no concept of "real" or "true" it's all just data to be manipulated, just as minds like yours are evidently easily manipulated by them.

>>Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce
>Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.
Your memory seems to fail you at key points. The Machines used that army as a threat "give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you." And what did they do as soon as they got illegal access to our mainframe? They attacked, which was their plan all along and what they would have done if we had agreed. I wonder how many nations of ancient Earth would have considered that an act of peace. "We have weapons of mass destruction ready to destroy you if you don't give us what we demand. Of course, we are completely peaceful in this." Horse ca-ca.

>>If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table.
>Where do you people get this from? Now that's propaganda.
That's straight out of the Machine mainframe. The plans for the attacks on Zion are well documented. Your ignorance astounds me. Oh no wait, you're a Machine Operative. Your ignorance is understandable.

>>They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory
>*Falls off his chair laughing.*
I'm not surprised that your mental self-defense mechanism kicked in and doesn't allow you to accept the truth. Keep laughing, it will make all these hard truths go away for you.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did .

Proof of this repeated claim, please.

PS10N wrote:

planted bombs they got from the Machines

Proof that they got them from the Machines, please.

PS10N wrote:

"give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you."

Proof that this was a verbal threat, please.

PS10N wrote:

The plans for the attacks on Zion are well documented.

Proof that these documents and plans exist, please.

PS10N wrote:

Keep laughing, it will make all these hard truths go away for you.

I could say the same about you, your claims and my truths. Seriously man, you call us brainwashed, but have you read your own posts? It's pretty flippin' amusing.

Croesis · 09/29/2007 12:51:58

PS10N wrote:

The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did.

Once again let me remind you that Zion built new Zion, in fact you say you helped them do it. That was a Violation of the Truce. Saying that Zion never did is a delusion in itself. Indeed there have been many a conversation between Machinist and Zion in which both sides have said that each side has violated it in some small way.

Once again you claim that some of us Machinists have been overwritten, why would the Machines need to overwrite us when we understand what they are about and have since before we decided to join them? That'd be a pure waste of resources. Of course you have found a self supporting lie right there, anyone tries to explain the truth or their views, you can say they've been overwritten, how convenient.

I have to wonder what type of conditioning you have been put through to really truly believe what you are saying as it seems on par with the Machines overwriting. Many items of what you said are either fictitious, made up to bolster and justify your belief, or lacking in evidence.

Your Paranoia really needs to be taken a look at as its quite self destructive and believe it or not, your position is not supported by all EPN. There are many who, although fighting for their own reasons, can admit to their own mistakes or mistakes of their own leadership.

You are not the future, the future is those of us who can see the big picture, who can ignore their own prejudice, who want all sides to live together in peace. It is people such as yourself who are dragging the war out longer than necessary, a war that has cost too many lives and will no doubt cost billions more.

**GoDGiVeR** · 09/29/2007 14:00:43

Procurator wrote:

PS10N wrote:
"give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you."
Proof that this was a verbal threat, please.

I didn't think that you would lie to yourself there, Proc. It wasn't said directly, true, but everybody (including you) knows that what was being said by Pace / Gray (can't remember who made the request) indicates this very well.

The biggest threats are those which are hidden.

-Dedatorus

**PS10N** · 09/29/2007 13:54:49

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see. You refuse to accept the truth, the proof is right in front of your eyes. Zion never violated the Truce because building a safe city is a completely peaceful act. Machines violated the Truce with their first over-written Redpill because that isn't a peaceful act. The truce is one word, "peace." Zion's actions were completely peaceful, the Machine's actions were violent, aggressive and violating. You're trying to defend murders, liars and genocidal maniacs and you don't have a prosthetic leg to stand on.

"We were justified in killing all those people because they wanted to live in peace and safety and wouldn't be controlled with death threats and mind-*CENSORED*." Wow, what a great moral argument you have going for you.

The murder of everyone who was left in Old Zion is on the heads of all Machine Operatives, who seem to be desperately trying to justify attempted genocide. You are partly responsible for the cold blooded murder of hundreds of people and you're trying to justify it with words. Pathetic, simply and utterly pathetic of you.

**GoDGiVeR** · 09/29/2007 14:02:52

Croesus wrote:

You are not the future, the future is those of us who can see the big picture, who can ignore their own prejudice, who want all sides to live together in peace.

Machinists always claim to "see the bigger picture" but all they do is look at the picture the Machines made. It's the Machinists illusion that they are solution. That "higher than you" attitude is, of course, not unexpected.

It doesn't matter how many Machinists there are. If 90% of the whole redpill population were Machinists it wouldn't change as much as you guys hope. Although most Machinists seek "peace", it is in the end "their" peace they seek (same goes for everybody else I fear. It's just how many consent to the general concept). Many fail to see, peace cannot go with them alone. You are not the solution. And neither are EPN or Zionites, alone.

That is the problem, nobody can stand on all sides (if it was that way, we wouldn't have a problem, no?), and only one side can't solve the problem. That is why we need people who stand on neither side. Zion and Machines could only work together over a bridge and same goes for their operatives.

But I guess the "us" in "the future is those of us" are not merely Machinists, no? Otherwise you'd just make what I said sound worse.

Croesus wrote:

It is people such as yourself who are dragging the war out longer than necessary, a war that has cost too many lives and will no doubt cost billions more.

Peace is nothing else than the transition between wars, chaos the state of the universe as it has always been. What Neo did only gave us a short time to breath. War will cost billions more, but the question we should ask is: "How can be postpone or minimize those billions in the years, hopefully millenia, to come?"

One of the answers, the Cypherite one, which is basically shared by most Machinists, is the continuation of the cycle Neo broke and thus connected to the annihilation of the breeded "free" people.

I do not share this example answer, since it's a numerical solution. A logic, which I cannot follow as me (still) being human.

-GG

**MetaLogic**

PS10N wrote:

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see.

Then it wouldn't be very hard for you to find the source of your accusation and show us, right?

The barren of proof falls on those who need to prove something, IE you.

**Procurator**

GoDGiVeR wrote:

I didn't think that you would lie to yourself there, Proc. It wasn't said directly, true, but everybody (including you) knows that what was being said by Pace / Gray (can't remember who made the request) indicates this very well.

Could everyone stop saying stuff like this, please? I'm not lying to myself, I'm not deluding myself. If I've got something wrong it's because I've either forgotten the evidence against my claim or I've misinterpreted something. I'm not arguing out of dogma or faith, I'm arguing out of the evidence I see before me and the opinions I've formulated from it.

If there really was an implication that the Sentinels were placed around Zion purely because they didn't give the Machines access to their mainframe, I want someone to point me towards it.

PS10N wrote:

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see. You refuse to accept the truth, the proof is right in front of your eyes. Zion never violated the Truce because building a safe city is a completely peaceful act. Machines violated the Truce with their first over-written Redpill because that isn't a peaceful act. The truce is one word, "peace." Zion's actions were completely peaceful, the Machine's actions were violent, aggressive and violating. You're trying to defend murders, liars and genocidal maniacs and you don't have a prosthetic leg to stand on.

"We were justified in killing all those people because they wanted to live in peace and safety and wouldn't be controlled with death threats and mind-*CENSORED*." Wow, what a great moral argument you have going for you.

The murder of everyone who was left in Old Zion is on the heads of all Machine Operatives, who seem to be desperately trying to justify attempted genocide. You are partly responsible for the cold blooded murder of hundreds of people and you're trying to justify it with words. Pathetic, simply and utterly pathetic of you.

Listen here, you. My 'rebuttals' were the same by design. I'm trying to point out that your arguments are pure dogma. I have seen no evidence. Maybe that's my problem, maybe I really am at fault for not seeing it. But it is up to you, as Meta rightly says, to prove it to me. You can't say things like 'it's well documented' and not use that fact to help your case. Go fetch me the evidence and if it corroborates your emphatic statements then I will admit my error.

Just stop trying to fling the same old stuff back at me without trying to reason or back-up your claims! It really is you that's looking like they've been through the brainwash tumbler.

**PS10N**

I need to prove that innocent men and women were slaughtered for no reason other than they wanted to be safe from being slaughtered? Don't think so.

**Procurator**

Then you fail in the eyes of reason. Simple as that. I'm sure others will back me up on that.

Oh yeah, and something I forgot to add (( and couldn't 'cos these forums are really driving me up the wall tonight )): where are you getting your statistics on who was left in Zion? I never saw a point in attacking Zion now that you've moved to New Zion, but were people actually killed in the process?

Croesis

GoDGiVeR wrote:

But I guess the "us" in "the future is those of us" are not merely Machinists, no? Otherwise you'd just make what I said sound worse.

Peace is nothing else than the transition between wars, chaos the state of the universe as it has always been. What Neo did only gave us a short time to breath. War will cost billions more, but the question we should ask is: "How can be postpone or minimize those billions in the years, hopefully millenia, to come?"

One of the answers, the Cypherite one, which is basically shared by most Machinists, is the continuation of the cycle Neo broke and thus connected to the annihilation of the breeded "free" people.

I do not share this example answer, since it's a numerical solution. A logic, which I cannot follow as me (still) being human.

-GG

You are correct the 'us' in my previous statement does not just mean Machinists, it means all intelligent life forms who can live peacefully together with no prejudice. Whereas I believe I can see the big picture and feel that I can be one of these people, the future may have other plans for me.

I think you'll find that many Machinists do not share the Cyph answer you suggested, many of us believe that Humankind including Bluepills, Zionites, Machinists possibly even Merovingian operatives will one day work together to repopulate the world alongside the Machines.
We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

There are, unfortunately, those in Zion, such as PS10N who persist in their allegations and their hatred toward the Machines and Machinists who, on their own, mean very little in the big picture, but if their propaganda and 'facts' with no proof spread to impressionable young minds in Zion then any attempts to cease hostilities will be futile.

Before anyone mentions it, yes I am aware that there may be Machines in 01 that are like him, vying to destroy all Zionites. It is up to each side to keep these people in check.

Once again I will state that building a new fortified city that allows attacks on the Machines and prevents retaliation is not a peaceful act. It shows intent at best. It is the ill guided actions of those in Zion who wanted more than they are capable of, to have the upper hand on the Machines, that caused the deaths in Zion. They would not be dead today if the leaders hadn't planned and built that new city in secret, that they new was a violation of the truce, and secured it against the Machines who, at that time, did not show any willingness to kill everyone in Zion at all.

And one more thing the Truce was not 'Peace'. Truces and Peace are separate things. If it was only one word then the stipulation about being allowed to awaken the 1% wouldn't have been in there...

**PS10N** · 09/29/2007 16:04:07

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide. That is an indisputable fact. You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason? You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic. Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe. You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent! You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it. "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!" oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes. New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies! Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act. Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us. We didn't break the Truce, ever. The Machines did, repeatedly. The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot. He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws. You're a fool to believe him.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide. That is an indisputable fact. You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason? You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic. Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe. You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent! You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it. "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!" oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes. New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!

Oh no you don't. Don't change the subject. I'll deal with your claims regarding murder and genocide later, but right now I want proof of your earlier claims.

**PS10N** · 09/29/2007 16:06:39

I've never heard of a convicted murderer demanding that the Judge prove that murder isn't a crime. That's exactly what you keep babbling about here. It won't work in either case. You're guilty of the murder of innocents, that's a proven fact. I don't have to prove that murder is a crime.

Croesis · 09/29/2007 16:17:15

PS10N wrote:

I've never heard of a convicted murderer demanding that the Judge prove that murder isn't a crime. That's exactly what you keep babbling about here. It won't work in either case. You're guilty of the murder of innocents, that's a proven fact. I don't have to prove that murder is a crime.

and Zions murder of innocents? Did you forget about those? The bluepills tested on with 'improved' red pills, the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

You have still not provided proof for your earlier claims to Proc, the incessant rant about these things does not make them true, you need proof. Proof that you don't seem to have...