[9.2.2] He's afraid we might want it too - Vector - 1/23/08

**Illyria22**

machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know.

And Zion's leadership doesn't?

Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it. They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger. They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace. But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

Illyria

**Neoteny**

Illyria22 wrote:

machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know.

And Zion's leadership doesn't?
Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it. They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger. They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace. But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

I think most of us would have said, "Oh, you're building a new city? That sounds like a good idea - with the Truce, we're going to need more space eventually for our new extracts. Oh, it's fortified? Well, with the Truce, they shouldn't be worried about needing to attack us, anyway, so that's no problem. I bet Zero One's fortified, too."

But the System's keeping quite a bit more from you folks. They know what he wants. Don't you think if you knew, you might be able to do your "job" better?

**MetaLogic**

Neoteny wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:
machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know.

And Zion's leadership doesn't?
Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it. They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger. They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace. But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

I think most of us would have said, "Oh, you're building a new city? That sounds like a good idea - with the Truce, we're going to need more space eventually for our new extracts. Oh, it's fortified? Well, with the Truce, they shouldn't be worried about needing to attack us, anyway, so that's no problem. I bet Zero One's fortified, too."
But the System's keeping quite a bit more from you folks. They know what he wants. Don't you think if you knew, you might be able to do your "job" better?

Even if they did know, what do you expect them to do? Whatever The Intruder wants, its likely found in 01, and I doubt the machines are going to let anyone, not even their own Operatives go into 01 without a valid reason.

**machete**

Neoteny wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:
machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know.

And Zion's leadership doesn't?
Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it. They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger. They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace. But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

I think most of us would have said, "Oh, you're building a new city? That sounds like a good idea - with the Truce, we're going to need more space eventually for our new extracts. Oh, it's fortified? Well, with the Truce, they shouldn't be worried about needing to attack us, anyway, so that's no problem. I bet Zero One's fortified, too."
But the System's keeping quite a bit more from you folks. They know what he wants. Don't you think if you knew, you might be able to do your "job" better?

+1 Forum CQ Point!

I was going to reply but Neoteny did a good job in his. There are MORE THAN A FEW things you guys are kept in the dark about. Our leadership pretty much tells us everything save for the New Zion project, but for OBVIOUS reasons they couldn't because who knows how many sleeper cypherites were in Zion at the time. I really doubt people in Zion would express "outrage", I would say it was more of a sigh of relief that we had a more secure location away from the guillotine that is the sentinel army above the city. I would say you need to express your concerns over what you know and what you don't know to your handlers. It would make for a better working relationship, don't you think?

Croesis · 01/26/2008 16:18:29

machete wrote:

I was going to reply but Neoteny did a good job in his. There are MORE THAN A FEW things you guys are kept in the dark about. Our leadership pretty much tells us everything save for the New Zion project, but for OBVIOUS reasons they couldn't because who knows how many sleeper cypherites were in Zion at the time. I really doubt people in Zion would express "outrage", I would say it was more of a sigh of relief that we had a more secure location away from the guillotine that is the sentinel army above the city. I would say you need to express your concerns over what you know and what you don't know to your handlers. It would make for a better working relationship, don't you think?

You wouldn't have needed a more 'secure' location if Zion hadn't of broken the truce. There was no evidence that any hostilities were going to be made by the Machines before that. By wanting a 'more secure' location you were, in fact, the architects of the reason for it.

So your saying that your leadership doesn't trust their own operatives with their more sensitive information? I can understand the Machines hesitation of trusting Humans, we have some trust from them but it will take more time for their race to trust ours especially when actions done by Zion undermine that trust.

"Oh it's fortified, Well with the truce... why would it need to be? The Machines haven't attacked us in our current city since the start of the truce have they? They could have done so quite easily whenever they wanted couldn't they? Wouldn't resources have been better spent in finishing the city quicker for all of the extra awakenings? Why don't we let them know we're building another city to house all of the extra awakened, just in case.. you know... they might think we're doing something else. Also best to let them know that we've fortified it specifically against them because we don't trust them... oh what... it's against the truce? Oh really? OK.. shhh...."

Your suggestion seems rather odd to me... the Zion leadership was worried about Cypherite infiltrators enough that they don't tell you that they're building a new city... yet they tell you every other bit of sensitive information? Good plan that. It's more likely that they know a lot more than they're telling you.

As for the intruder, the Machines may know what he wants but why would they need to tell us if it's something we can't possibly provide? Lets remember that Zion and Merv are trying to buddy up with the Intruder.. if we had that info it would most likely endanger operatives and could be leaked into the public domain. I'm sure Machinists have their fair share of infiltrators or Zion sympathisers too especially when so many of us were against the idea of going to war with Zion in the first place...

Delicho · 01/26/2008 16:56:17

Synapse777 wrote:

((That event was a pile of .. I won't use much space for it here, but seeing those reds come over 1nce a month to shoot up our asses in mindless pvp and not backing off when we try to RP - I'm certain some of you here realize that's what some of us try to do in events by now - and then keeps shooting/hacking and just plainly messes up the event for the sake of "Kill the terrorits" GG... and a RSI sample of Shimada from Systematica to the Architect? *CENSORED* did I miss there? oh.. that's right another pvp event which looks cool here, no doubt, but was really bad ingame mostly under the talk with the Intruder tho, the rest was okay. So let me see, why don't we agree that on Vector we do RP, and maybe I should get that across to LESIG as well cause since Khepril left/kicked whatever, nothing much has happened on the server RP-wise. Me and Kevin from EPN caught Systematica redhanded in a Zion contruct and nothing has come from it, I find that a bit funny.. is there something Im not being told about here?... looks like it... but back to the event, and future events as well... Reds, back the f.. off and we'll promise as much as we can not to bust your events but if you want busting... it's coming, I leave it in your court... and to the ones we see 1nce a month... GG kids, hope you felt good after trashing yet another EPN event... oh *CENSORED* I forgot... you were "invited".))

I received some of your hate tells and they were uncalled for, rude, vulgar, and frankly just silly. You told me to stop attacking you and let you "RP" ..

This is Vector. You're Zion. I'm not.

I'm gonna attack.

QQ

Follow yellow hardlines and you don't have to be invited.

And in the last month, I've probably spent more time logged onto Vector than 80% or more of the Vector population, so you can shove that.

Also shove your comment about other org "messing" up events. It's meant to be that way. You think Machines showing up was an accident?

Pyraci

Neoteny wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:
machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know.

And Zion's leadership doesn't?
Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it. They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger. They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace. But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

I think most of us would have said, "Oh, you're building a new city? That sounds like a good idea - with the Truce, we're going to need more space eventually for our new extracts. Oh, it's fortified? Well, with the Truce, they shouldn't be worried about needing to attack us, anyway, so that's no problem. I bet Zero One's fortified, too."
But the System's keeping quite a bit more from you folks. They know what he wants. Don't you think if you knew, you might be able to do your "job" better?

Amen.

The Machine knows what's going on, or at least why all this is happening and why this guy is here. And to what Neoteny also said, I find it interesting that the Machine keeps it's city fortified with an infantry line of sentinels, tow bombs, and those Megalith, beetle-looking monstrosities a hundred meters away from the place, yet Zion expands and puts EMP devices above it's door and WE'RE the aggressors. WE'RE the big, bad, threat. The sell-out Cyphs saw what...a dozen APUs freighted into the city. Last I checked, an APU had adequate firepower for a handful of sentinels and weren't mobile enough for an all-out assault on the Machine(for those with the "they were getting ready to make an attack against 'us'" argument). Again, the Machine, in all it's infinite wisdom and righteousness drops the hammer and smites, and allows NO MORE AWAKENINGS, all based on 'assumptions'.

But are they really assumptions, or does the Machine know exactly what it needs to do for it's own gain, and allow it's Machinists to assume; realizing that Machinists are still humans and therefore good at assuming things when given certain information? We are all on a "need to know" basis, but the Machine is the entity in control, and keeps the most from us all. We all have to take care not to let our assumptions get the best of us.

"When you assume, you make and '@ss' out of 'u' and 'me'."

Croesis · 01/26/2008 17:11:51

Pyraci wrote:

I find it interesting that the Machine keeps it's city fortified with an infantry line of sentinels, tow bombs, and those Megalith, beetle-looking monstrosities a hundred meters away from the place, yet Zion expands and puts EMP devices above it's door and WE'RE the aggressors.

They had those fortifications before the truce, presumably as remnants from the original war. They weren't built during the truce. We knew that they had the fortifications when the truce was made, they weren't built in secret. Do they still have them? Possibly, but we don't know it for certain if they do and if they are still functioning. Again unless you know the truce term for term as agreed between Zion and Machine, you have no idea what was a violation and what wasn't.
You cannot dismiss the main argument about the new city allowing ships to retreat inside after launching attacks on lightly defended Machine installations. Didn't EPN plan and attempt this very thing a while back? Would Zion really have closed the gates on them is they required New Zion's protection against retaliation?

**GamiSB**

Terms of the Truce:
Zion is allowed to free the minds of those that want out without interference on the Machine's part or fear of being attacked in the real.

How the Truce was violated:
The Machine hired other redpills to hinder awakneings and wrote over the minds of Zion ops.
Zion made it impossible for the Machine to attack it's city in the real.

Moral of the story:
Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.

**Kybutra**

GamiSB wrote:

Moral of the story:
Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.

Amen to that

Croesis

GamiSB wrote:

Terms of the Truce:
Zion is allowed to free the minds of those that want out without interference on the Machine's part or fear of being attacked in the real.

You know this as fact to be the only text in the truce?

Pyraci · 01/26/2008 17:56:37

Kybutra wrote:

GamiSB wrote:
Moral of the story:
Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.
Amen to that

Vinia wrote:

Pyraci wrote:
I find it interesting that the Machine keeps it's city fortified with an infantry line of sentinels, tow bombs, and those Megalith, beetle-looking monstrosities a hundred meters away from the place, yet Zion expands and puts EMP devices above it's door and WE'RE the aggressors.
They had those fortifications before the truce, presumably as remnants from the original war. They weren't built during the truce. We knew that they had the fortifications when the truce was made, they weren't built in secret. Do they still have them? Possibly, but we don't know it for certain if they do and if they are still functioning. Again unless you know the truce term for term as agreed between Zion and Machine, you have no idea what was a violation and what wasn't.
You cannot dismiss the main argument about the new city allowing ships to retreat inside after launching attacks on lightly defended Machine installations. Didn't EPN plan and attempt this very thing a while back? Would Zion really have closed the gates on them is they required New Zion's protection against retaliation?

If I remember correctly, that plan was thought up and put into place after this debacle started again. Is there any proof that the Machine let any of it's defenses down? And what "lightly defended Machine installations" are we speaking about?

You're right in that we don't know what the terms of the truce are. But then again, why is there no question to this decision? He just gives the order and it happens, right? And what about the decision to not allow anymore extractions? I've seen nothing more than assumptions on the Machinist side of this that they will continue, but be exclusive to Machinsts. When I asked where the proof of this was, I believe yours was the only answer, and you said that it was probable or likely. Though I respect your point-of-view, that just doesn't constitute hard evidence of the policy.

Let us not take the word of the authority as the truth, but the truth as the authority.

Croesis · 01/26/2008 18:18:04

Pyraci wrote:

If I remember correctly, that plan was thought up and put into place after this debacle started again. Is there any proof that the Machine let any of it's defenses down? And what "lightly defended Machine installations" are we speaking about?

You're right in that we don't know what the terms of the truce are. But then again, why is there no question to this decision? He just gives the order and it happens, right? And what about the decision to not allow anymore extractions? I've seen nothing more than assumptions on the Machinist side of this that they will continue, but be exclusive to Machinsts. When I asked where the proof of this was, I believe yours was the only answer, and you said that it was probable or likely. Though I respect your point-of-view, that just doesn't constitute hard evidence of the policy.

Let us not take the word of the authority as the truth, but the truth as the authority.

Their plan showed that the possibility was there, EPN took advantage of the situation as soon as they knew that they could attempt it. In fact if New Zion hadn't have been found EPN could have still made the attempt and possibly succeeded as the Machines may not have gained the intel and increased security in preparation. Do you think that the entire stretch of the powerlines are defended enough to hold off an attack before Machine forces manage to respond? As I said it's only a possibility that the Machines, as part of the terms of the truce, shut down their defences but then again we won't know now as, if they were, they'd most certainly be re-activated now.

What I want to know is who in Zion knew the terms of the truce? They had to know it's contents to agree with it... or did they just take advantage of what they could? If they did, I'm wondering why they didn't tell it's operatives. I've not heard the Oracle say that the Machines were wrong when declaring the truce broken...

We didn't see any questions from the Agents on this, programs lead by the Architect, but Machinists certainly had plenty of questions regarding all aspects of the decision. As I've always said, my assumptions are based on what facts I knew at the time coupled with what I didn't know but considered to be logical, I've never claimed to be correct.

Pyraci

Vinia wrote:

Pyraci wrote:
If I remember correctly, that plan was thought up and put into place after this debacle started again. Is there any proof that the Machine let any of it's defenses down? And what "lightly defended Machine installations" are we speaking about?

You're right in that we don't know what the terms of the truce are. But then again, why is there no question to this decision? He just gives the order and it happens, right? And what about the decision to not allow anymore extractions? I've seen nothing more than assumptions on the Machinist side of this that they will continue, but be exclusive to Machinsts. When I asked where the proof of this was, I believe yours was the only answer, and you said that it was probable or likely. Though I respect your point-of-view, that just doesn't constitute hard evidence of the policy.

Let us not take the word of the authority as the truth, but the truth as the authority.
Their plan showed that the possibility was there, EPN took advantage of the situation as soon as they knew that they could attempt it. In fact if New Zion hadn't have been found EPN could have still made the attempt and possibly succeeded as the Machines may not have gained the intel and increased security in preparation. Do you think that the entire stretch of the powerlines are defended enough to hold off an attack before Machine forces manage to respond? As I said it's only a possibility that the Machines, as part of the terms of the truce, shut down their defences but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now.

We didn't see any questions from the Agents on this, programs lead by the Architect, but Machinists certainly had plenty of questions regarding all aspects of the decision. As I've always said, my assumptions are based on what facts I knew at the time coupled with what I didn't know but considered to be logical, I've never claimed to be correct.

The Machine threatens us with a war, we fight back. Of course people are going to attempt to go on the offensive if you declare war on them. It's war, after all. It's silly to play dirty yet expect the enemy to play fair, just because you have more to lose than them.

"but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now."

The same way it's not certain that EPN would have made and acted on a plan to attack the lines because it was AFTER the war started again. As such, the war is what drove them to decide it was possible and act accordingly.

And if all these ideas are just assumptions with no claim to be correct, why defend as the truth and argue them as such, without scrutinizing the authority for confirmation? I always thought that the Machinist argument would be based in hard evidence and fact, not assumptions made on limited, groomed, and questionable information.

Croesis · 01/26/2008 19:37:36

Pyraci wrote:

The Machine threatens us with a war, we fight back. Of course people are going to attempt to go on the offensive if you declare war on them. It's war, after all. It's silly to play dirty yet expect the enemy to play fair, just because you have more to lose than them.

"but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now."

The same way it's not certain that EPN would have made and acted on a plan to attack the lines because it was AFTER the war started again. As such, the war is what drove them to decide it was possible and act accordingly.

And if all these ideas are just assumptions with no claim to be correct, why defend as the truth and argue them as such, without scrutinizing the authority for confirmation? I always thought that the Machinist argument would be based in hard evidence and fact, not assumptions made on limited, groomed, and questionable information.

So EPN wouldn't have taken the opportunity to try to achieve what they want, freeing mankind at the cost of the Machines if there wasn't a war going on? They could have attempted it at anytime, anytime during the truce. It wasn't the war that drove them to it, it was the availability of resources.

I'm sure we both know that if the opportunity was there they would have attempted it anyway and if the truce was still in effect and Zion having nothing to do with EPN, Zion could claim innocence and if the EPN attack was destroyed or if there were survivors who made it back, could hide them without the Machines knowing or having any way to prove that they were there. Yes these are assumptions, but can you say for absolute certainty, knowing what we know about Zion and EPN, that it wouldn't have happened, that it wasn't possible?

I defend my ideas and assumptions with the same reasons why others defend theirs... because I believe them to be true or what would most likely happen given what I know. The Machinist argument, one that is put forward by Machinists as a whole would be mostly limited to hard facts, but these are my personal beliefs and arguments, of which I'm perfectly entitled. I've never claimed to be the voice of the Machinists, I let our liaisons present our unified voice.