What differences? You keep saying there are some but what and where are they? The ideals of the Cypherites is for the system to remain peaceful so the blues in it can sleep peacefully. This is the exact same ideal the Machine shares about bluepills and their system. I'm not using time to prove that they work together I'm using logic. You can't have two organizations with the same ideals and claim that one's purpose is different than the other. Their not, working towards the same goal for the same reasons is the same purpose.

You know, since the war started, the lines seperating EPN and Zion seem to have blurred. The System, Machinists and Cyphs are fighting Zion, Zionites and EPN. Each of their methods are different, each of their goals are different, if only slightly i.e. Cyphs wan't to keep bluepills in the simulation, while Machinists want Mankind and Machines to live together where they want inside or outside the simulation.

Zion wanted to work toward peace and free those who wanted out while EPN wanted to give all bluepills the choice. It seems that Zion's priorities has changed to be more in line with EPN, opposing the system.

>_>

GamiSB wrote:

What differences? You keep saying there are some but what and where are they? The ideals of the Cypherites is for the system to remain peaceful so the blues in it can sleep peacefully. This is the exact same ideal the Machine shares about bluepills and their system. I'm not using time to prove that they work together I'm using logic. You can't have two organizations with the same ideals and claim that one's purpose is different than the other. Their not, working towards the same goal for the same reasons is the same purpose.

You know, since the war started, the lines seperating EPN and Zion seem to have blurred. The System, Machinists and Cyphs are fighting Zion, Zionites and EPN. Each of their methods are different, each of their goals are different, if only slightly i.e. Cyphs wan't to keep bluepills in the simulation, while Machinists want Mankind and Machines to live together where they want inside or outside the simulation.

Zion wanted to work toward peace and free those who wanted out while EPN wanted to give all bluepills the choice. It seems that Zion's priorities has changed to be more in line with EPN, opposing the system.

That's where you're wrong Vinia. That's the big difference between EPN and Cyphs; EPN still has a purpose. EPN follows the example of Neo, and has continued to fight, even when Zion stops fighting. They seek to uphold Neo's memory and to be a beacon for the ideals he stood for.

The Cyphs, named for the most famous Cypherite of them all; Cypher, don't have that kind of purpose anymore. The Cypherite org is all but relegated to PvPers, with just a scant handful of RPers among them.

Well, I did kind of feel like since this was in the Character Development forum, and not the Next Ren or General forums, that it would kind of speak for itself. But...yeah.

Oh, and Gray says, "There is no such procedure."

Heh, good point. I think sometimes people miss the small details! As for Gray, his comment was directed at Cryptos, he was answering Cryptos' question. Gray was probably telling the truth, but Cryptos is a man overwritten with machine code that even Seraph couldn't remove. That could mean that there is no such procedure for Cryptos to be returned, but does it mean there is no such procedure at all? Cryptos made the assumption that it was a broad comment to include all Cypherites even saying Cypher didn't return.

A single spoken line was said, assumption did the rest...  

That's where you're wrong Vinia. That's the big difference between EPN and Cyphs; EPN still has a purpose. EPN follows the example of Neo, and has continued to fight, even when Zion stops fighting. They seek to uphold Neo's memory and to be a beacon for the ideals he stood for.

The Cyphs, named for the most famous Cypherite of them all; Cypher, don't have that kind of purpose anymore. The Cypherite org is all but relegated to PvPers, with just a scant handful of RPers among them.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Well, I did kind of feel like since this was in the Character Development forum, and not the Next Ren or General forums, that it would kind of speak for itself. But...yeah.

Oh, and Gray says, "There is no such procedure."

Heh, good point. I think sometimes people miss the small details! As for Gray, his comment was directed at Cryptos, he was answering Cryptos' question. Gray was probably telling the truth, but Cryptos is a man overwritten with machine code that even Seraph couldn't remove. That could mean that there is no such procedure for Cryptos to be returned, but does it mean there is no such procedure at all? Cryptos made the assumption that it was a broad comment to include all Cypherites even saying Cypher didn't return.

A single spoken line was said, assumption did the rest...  

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Well condensing the entire Cypherite organisation's ideology, motivation and methodology into a single frame I'd say is unidentifiable at this stage.

A comparison being Zion; within which you have The Council, the divisions of the military, the religion, the various storyline characters and the factions and operatives themselves, not all of whom are always in agreement on the same issues.

... and in the same way, it has also been forced to adapt to its new environment; one substantially different than that of its original conception.

However, I'd also say one recurring element and thread which unites it still is the desire to hold onto their "humanity" both for its operatives and for their friends and family who still remain plugged into the Simulation; which can then be extended to the rest of the bluepill population. Perhaps, further still allowing those of the org to identify with and hold a compassion toward them on a far deeper level than any of the other orgs.

Something which they have relentlessly held onto, even in the context of strong machine disapproval and disdain.

A single purpose? Perhaps not.

A purpose? Most definitely.

It would of course be reassuring, I imagine, for most if not all of those still loyal to the movement to be able to explore this at the front lines of the main storyline as opposed to something in the background as privaront has stated.

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

GamiSB wrote:

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

Part of The Republic by Plato (and Socrates, kinda) =)

Along with the Metaphor of the Sun and Analogy of the Divided Line.

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Or...

... a low budget Matrix and, yes, he really was that dense. :3

GamiSB wrote:

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

Actually what Gami was saying was that, at the time of this LE, a lot of people were making the same arguments for the possibility of the existence of a reinsertion procedure. After all, a lot of people's RP depended on this being a viable option. Then Rarebit, in an OOC way, pretty much came out and said, "nope, no reinsertion," effectively ending the argument.

And Plato's Allegory of the Cave is a must-read concept for matrix fans.

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Ah, I see. I wonder if this was part of the reason why Cypher wanted to remember nothing... NOTHING, or whether it's because he simply didn't want to remember anything about it.

That cave allegory I understand (about as much as I can, I'm not much of a philosopher), but I was introduced to it in another manner, probably on TV or something, hence the confusion.

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

XElite wrote:

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Ah, I see. I wonder if this was part of the reason why Cypher wanted to remember nothing... NOTHING, or whether it's because he simply didn't want to remember anything about it.

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

I'll go you one better: if the Machines had a mindwipe/reinsertion procedure, don't you think they would have perfected it and instead of killing 'redpills', reinserting them?

Hence why I said earlier 'I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals'.

But hey, why am I arguing a case for Cyphs? They should be doing it themselves!

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.