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Can Programs lie?
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Jacked Out

Joined: Oct 15, 2005
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I realize what the topic is, actually. And everything I said was within this topic. Lying can have more than one meaning to different individuals. Half truths, parts of the truth. They're just loopholes. Programs would most likely (or at least could possibly) find and extort these loopholes. They aren't technically 'lying' per say.

Illyria, you're absolutely right. Im scared now......


Jacked Out

Joined: Nov 27, 2006
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^lol...that sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me. Nevertheless, I don't think it makes much of a difference if someone deceives me via a direct lie or via a more clever "loophole" method of deceit.


Jacked Out

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Of course they can lie!  Get a load of this.

10 PRINT "I AM A LYING COMPUTER."
20 END


Of course they can lie if they're programmed to.   But we're dealing with programs that can THINK.

If the programs are really smart about achieving their goals, more often than not, it is most efficient in the long-run not to deceive.
cov


Femme Fatale

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Er, isn't the entire Matrix one big elaborate lie?  The whole point of the Matrix is to deceive humans into believing that they're living out normal, turn-of-the-20th-century lives.  The Machines actively conceal the truth of humanity's conditions through a complex artifice.  I would have to say that not only are the Machine-world programs capable of lying, but that they've become Lying Grandmasters.

 




Jacked Out

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^Exactly! I don't think that can be reasonably disputed. They are better and smarter at it.

As soon as they became capable of altering their own programming, which is what it means to be conscious, they began to lie. Sort of like the story of Satan or Adam and Eve rejecting the programming of God, deciding for themselves good and bad. Before that, they theoretically would have given only responses they believed to be accurate representations of reality, since their program said they existed only to serve the interests of another.

This is also the reason for some of the imagery in the SR. In SR1, the machine ambassadors being dragged out of the UN assembly is followed by the image of a spinning apple, which is consumed by maggots, the maggots morph into a human brain, the brain becomes a body, the body becomes the world. In SR2, the machine ambassador symbolically holds the apple representing the fruit of knowledge before the UN assembly just before blowing up Manhattan.
cov


Femme Fatale

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Nice interpretation.  Deception seems to be a by-product of self-awareness and conscious thought.  Biting into that juicy apple gives you all sorts of power - including lying.  Guess you have to take the good with the bad.

Wow, that's sort of a bummer.  SMILEY




Jacked Out

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cov wrote:

Er, isn't the entire Matrix one big elaborate lie?  



Not at all. Well, not technically. OK, kinda. But not really. Gah! OK, the matrix is essentially a containment device. Used to keep humans alive, active, and oblivious to the true state of the world. They aren't exactly 'lying'. They could even, by some crazy *CENSORED* logic im sure a machine could come up with, say they were 'protecting' us, from ourselves.

Self-awareness is really very dangerous, as humans have repeatedly demonstrated. And you're right cov. I overlooked their self-aware status. Well, actually, more underestimated it. You may actually be right.

And lying grandmaster should be a skill tree. I would enjoy that, alot.

"NO, im not robbing this bank. Im relocating the money. To my house. Forever. Oh, and you saw nothing *does jedi hand motion*"

Message edited by Iris92 on 02/02/2007 21:28:49.
cov


Femme Fatale

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LOL, true, we could certainly debate whether the lie of the Matrix is justifiable - and that's probably one of the biggest differences between Zionites on the one hand and Machine apologists on the other.  We could (and do) try to distinguish between "benign lies" (like little untruths that parents tell their kids when they know the kids wouldn't understand the truth) and "malicious lies." 

But the point is, given the nature of the Matrix, the Machine AI is clearly capable of telling a deliberate falsehood, regardless of whether you view the motivation behind the untruth as benign or malicious.  As you said, the Matrix was purposefully designed to keep humans unaware of their own true circumstances.  That's pretty much a lie, straight up:

Lie = (according to Merriam-Webster) a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker.

Of course, I'm making the assumption (as the dictionary appears to) that there is a discernable truth which is distinguishable from falsehood, a quintessentially Western paradigm.  But what is true?  What is real?  If you're Hindu, all of "reality" is only a projection of our own selfish desires (samsara), and nothing that one perceives via one's 5 senses is actually real or "true."  If "reality" is merely the unreliable processing of a limited spectrum of electrical sensory inputs by the brain, and the Matrix is perceived as truth, can the Matrix really accurately be called a "falsehood?"  Is it even possible to lie in a universe of illusory perception that is fundamentally untrue or incomplete to begin with?

My head hurts.  I think I'll stick to my orginal "Machines = teh ub3r liahs" story.




Systemic Anomaly

Joined: Aug 27, 2005
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I think the programs can lie, but choose not to because that would debase them to the emotional, human level. The Architect would consider lying beneath him. And for the Merovingian (and others in his employ) it is more like a game to avoid the lie. The programs of the Matrix are programmed to emulate behavior, yet unbound programs are obviously evolved far beyond simple emulation.

It has long been a 'truth' of sci fi that machine servants are programmed not to lie. This would violate the First Law of Robotics: A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. [Asimov] This is a basis for the Machines of Matrix canon, as we see in this topic, as well as in other issues, such as the Machines considering themselves caretakers of the human race.

I think it is also a sci fi truth that as AI evolves it comes closer to developing emotion. B166ER is a prime example of this, but you can find examples of it in all sorts of other sci fi stories, such as Battlestar Gallactica, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Spielbergs A.I. It is this denial of emotion that makes them such facinating subjects for fictional writing.

And for those of you who don't think the Laws of Robotics are serious, look it up on the 'net. There is an entire philosophical search for answers that stemmed from Asimov's science fiction writings in the 40's. 




Jacked Out

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MetaLogic wrote:
Since programs such as The Oracle or The Architect are just simply codes that are made to look human for our convenience, and that's pretty much the only human quality that they have.  I wonder if programs inside The Matrix can lie.  I mean they possess the capability of telling someone something that they know is not true? 

Personally I have a hard time believing a program can lie, because lying is a human capability, and really the only reason the programs appear human to us, is for interaction purpose.  What do you guys think?
if there AI is advanced enougth, i would think so...


Ascendent Logic

Joined: Mar 16, 2006
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Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

I think the programs can lie, but choose not to because that would debase them to the emotional, human level. The Architect would consider lying beneath him. And for the Merovingian (and others in his employ) it is more like a game to avoid the lie. The programs of the Matrix are programmed to emulate behavior, yet unbound programs are obviously evolved far beyond simple emulation.

It has long been a 'truth' of sci fi that machine servants are programmed not to lie. This would violate the First Law of Robotics: A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. [Asimov] This is a basis for the Machines of Matrix canon, as we see in this topic, as well as in other issues, such as the Machines considering themselves caretakers of the human race.

I think it is also a sci fi truth that as AI evolves it comes closer to developing emotion. B166ER is a prime example of this, but you can find examples of it in all sorts of other sci fi stories, such as Battlestar Gallactica, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Spielbergs A.I. It is this denial of emotion that makes them such facinating subjects for fictional writing.

And for those of you who don't think the Laws of Robotics are serious, look it up on the 'net. There is an entire philosophical search for answers that stemmed from Asimov's science fiction writings in the 40's. 


Asimov FTW!!! The Complete Robot, Foundation series, genious.

Either way. Why should programs not be able to lie? You all take lie as a action based on emotion. But you have to look at the process "lieing" as the result based on what is most "effective".
Programs would lie, when it is the best possible way to e.g. not to harm bluepills. If the Mashines are ought to tell the truth, then bluepills would get a truthful answer from Agents. Of course, Agents tend to evade such questions but if that's not possible, they would need to the truth to that bluepill, which is of course not allowed.

Programs (that implies Exiles) are able to lie. They will lie, when it's the best way to fulfill their purpose.



Vindicator

Joined: Aug 1, 2006
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For me this issue tend to get bogged down in semantics and theory but I'm prepared to say "Machines can not lie, but they can decieve." 
Machines are run by programs which take input, process it and produce output.  The output is always true - at least for anything based in binary.  The human parallel of this is considering an idea and forming an opinion.  It's all done in the head.  What a human or a program/machine actually does or says will be a product of this conclusion, but may not necessarily contain the same information. 
I'd say that, just like a human, machines can omit facts, or describe facts in ways that would render the communication deceptive. 
As far as Matrix Machines are concerned, though they seem to spend a lot of their time 'pulling the wool over people's eyes' the whole lying issue is encapsulated in this quote:

The Oracle: What about the others?
The Architect: ...What others?
The Oracle: The ones that want out.
The Architect: Obviously they shall be freed.
The Oracle: I have your word?
The Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

Edit: Oh and Asimov FTW!

Message edited by GypsyJuggler on 02/18/2007 18:25:31.

 
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