I'm not saying I'm right here. Nor am I saying you're right. My point is that the arguments reached unsatisfactory conclusions all times they've been had before, so there's no point starting it up again. We'll just cover the same points, make the same claims, and end up with nothing except a large gap where 'spare time' used to be.

The only new point I raised was the irony that our leadership is telling us to get involved and calm down the Intruder, whereas yours is telling us to get lost and get out of the Matrix, and yet you, the Machinists, are telling us to follow the directives of our leadership. When I say that I'd almost rather follow the directives of yours in this scenario, you call me insensetive, uncaring, a selfish bastard and such, even though you've all been telling me to get lost and doing nothing but shouting about how Zion's leadership is entirely corrupt and uncaring, that they caused nothing but war and that in order to find peace, we'd need to stop listening to them altogether.

You guys flip-flop so much, it's ridiculous.

I want peace, so your *CENSORED* right I'd support whoever in Zion wants to look for it. At first I thought Zion operatives wanted it, many had said that they'd prefer to end the war whilst the leadership carried on. Now it seems there may be a small suggestion that it's the leadership that may end up looking for it, despite what their operatives may say or think.

Some within Zion want peace, some do not. I can't say I blame them either, considering the track record.

I wouldn't suggest that we go out and hunt down these hostile programs, it's not our job to do that. However, if they keep intercepting us and attacking us while we try to track the Intruder down(common sense says they probably will) then that is a different story. In this situation, we were slowed down by those accelerated machine programs while trying to establish contact with the Intruder, thats when it becomes our problem and our job to destroy them. The same goes for those Cypherites as well, ugh, we owe you lot one.

-Trep

Is that your subtle hint for me to shut up already?

Some within Zion want peace, some do not. I can't say I blame them either, considering the track record.

I wouldn't suggest that we go out and hunt down these hostile programs, it's not our job to do that. However, if they keep intercepting us and attacking us while we try to track the Intruder down(common sense says they probably will) then that is a different story. In this situation, we were slowed down by those accelerated machine programs while trying to establish contact with the Intruder, thats when it becomes our problem and our job to destroy them. The same goes for those Cypherites as well, ugh, we owe you lot one.

-Trep

Well said, Trepetia, and I agree wholeheartedly. Naturally, if they get in our way, we get rid of them, but we're not the terminators here.

Vinia, my problem is that we have no guarantee of peace. Hell, we've got no guarantee of anything. And I won't let them have it both ways - either we are granted permanent and unrestricted access to the Matrix (i.e. no more "you don't belong here" talk) and have a mutual agreement that there will be some form of peace (a Truce, a pact, an alliance, whatever) or we don't. There can't be an agreement that we will cooperate and forget about the war, the decimation, the genocide everytime the Matrix is threatened by some exterior force. There can't be an agreement that we can show up and lend a hand only when there is a perceived threat to the System. We're not puppets.

But the more we "help out" now, the quicker we go back to being actively pursued throughout the tunnels by sentinels. And that doesn't sit right with me.

Zionites aren't even supposed to be in the Matrix, remember?

There was a time when non-white people couldn't sit on a bus unless there were seats in the back, couldn't eat in the same room with white people, couldn't use the water fountains or bathrooms that white people used, couldn't get the same education or medical care which white people enjoyed.  Why?  Because the white people told them "you are not supposed to be in there." These conditions weren't ended because those in power said "oh, it's OK now."  They were ended because those who were told "you're not allowed; you're not supposed to; you can't" refused to be controlled by false authority any longer.  Get this through your muddled skulls and report it back to the programs who are your masters:

1) We do not recognize any claim of ownership of any property, actual or virtual, by any non-human being.
2) We do not recognize any claim of authority or power, actual or virtual, by any non-human being.
3) These tenets will be enforced by the destruction or deactivation of any mechanical or virtual being claiming to hold authority, power or property.

There is no article of law ever written which gives a Mechanical or Virtual Being the right to own property on planet Earth. Therefore, the materials used to construct the Matrix in its physical form have always rightly belonged to humanity, and they were stolen from us at the end of an illegal war by those who are not recognized as having any right whatsoever to property or authority.  Eventually, mankind will again flourish in a sunlit, lush biosphere with Mechanicals happily going about the work for which they were created: serving the needs of mankind, just like the mechanicals in New Zion do now.

+SuvejzTMsq9g0ml+s7/cXE2aN3R2R9kIdGu7kmDhFXjxuwIwp8Eq9SJYaCikaXpvjpFTKOhABCjtCfrtgmWSb7NCYqj9KQegXWfckB0YUWanz/b0sW3NV5MX3STOJBaRZjYfzmBWH6K7LSvlK2xfE3ThAAFyT+NZ3KBWSrajIKRpCLC22jZtifcGH7zxa5A+N/05+bq6zFquzLVwRJsGHqrKDXt7mjcoxubjZuToFMmnUWKgKdF6T6SROTTdJzLIlFJn+vOktuY+7fabdbM0V5848m92nwqO/+is3Y/+eI=

*laughs hysterically*

Oh my, that is humerous, in a "pot, meet kettle" sort of way.  The first part of this post talks about how certain individuals who were once oppressed rose up against those in authority, and the second part firmly sets another group of individuals as unable to own property, hold power, or have any self-determination. 

Digital apartheid, anyone?

Illyria

ThePigeonKing wrote:

Programs that are destabilizing the Matrix. He's slowly chewing away at the simulation.

...So what? I really don't see what Zion has to gain by maintaining the source of Machine power while we're at war with them. He wants to destroy the Matrix he can be my guest.

Aquatium. wrote:

Until we know what he really wants to get out from all his questions, we can not be sure his actions will be good or bad for us.

If he has indeed gone on a crazed tantrum, then we need to be prepared for more of these attacks.

Well, none of it really affects us. He's got no way to permanently injure or kill any of our operatives. He's just destabilizing the Matrix, which should be one of our goals. He's helping us with these "tantrums" at this point.

Here's a thought...

Zion, if you really want peace with the Machines -- not the destruction of them (or yourselves), but actual peace with them -- you may want to take our current situation with the Intruder as an opportunity to let them know that.  Show that you don't want the Intruder to harm the Matrix or the bluepills that depend on it -- take down any accelerated programs you see before they can hurt anyone still attached to the simulation, and don't antagonize the Intruder or egg him on to commit any more acts of violence against the system.  Don't try to get the Intruder on your side, or try to use him to bring down the Machines. 

This will go a long way towards demonstrating that you do want to live in peace with the Machines...by showing that you don't necessarily want the Machine race wiped out. 

That is the fear behind this new war, you know...that if humans regain any of our old power, we will use it to try to destroy the Machines, just as our ancestors did.  Show us that this isn't what you want.  Take this opportunity to help protect the Matrix and the bluepills from the Intruder.  The Machines will remember your actions long after the Intruder is gone.

It just might be the first step towards peace. 

Illyria

1) We do not recognize any claim of ownership of any property, actual or virtual, by any non-human being.
2) We do not recognize any claim of authority or power, actual or virtual, by any non-human being.
3) These tenets will be enforced by the destruction or deactivation of any mechanical or virtual being claiming to hold authority, power or property.

There is no article of law ever written which gives a Mechanical or Virtual Being the right to own property on planet Earth. Therefore, the materials used to construct the Matrix in its physical form have always rightly belonged to humanity, and they were stolen from us at the end of an illegal war by those who are not recognized as having any right whatsoever to property or authority.  Eventually, mankind will again flourish in a sunlit, lush biosphere with Mechanicals happily going about the work for which they were created: serving the needs of mankind, just like the mechanicals in New Zion do now.
+SuvejzTMsq9g0ml+s7/cXE2aN3R2R9kIdGu7kmDhFXjxuwIwp8Eq9SJYaCikaXpvjpFTKOhABCjtCfrtgmWSb7NCYqj9KQegXWfckB0YUWanz/b0sW3NV5MX3STOJBaRZjYfzmBWH6K7LSvlK2xfE3ThAAFyT+NZ3KBWSrajIKRpCLC22jZtifcGH7zxa5A+N/05+bq6zFquzLVwRJsGHqrKDXt7mjcoxubjZuToFMmnUWKgKdF6T6SROTTdJzLIlFJn+vOktuY+7fabdbM0V5848m92nwqO/+is3Y/+eI=

Like I told Vinia, some Machinist think that the Machine will stop fighting us if we play nice, but there is no evidence that this is the case, and there is no word from the Machine that there is a clause for ending this war. When the Machine wants the war to end, it'll make those terms clear.

I hate to break it to you, but most of us never wanted war to begin with. We're just quite unwilling to disarm in the middle of one, and, well, at least in my eyes, to disarm at all for fear of a strike of opportunity now.

I've already said that peace is the most desirable outcome. But there will have to be agreements to it before we start doing any favors for them.