Seraph's History

Hutchie

WarIock wrote
Well, we know little about it, but we DO know that the One only came to be in the third version of the Matrix, the one made after "the peak of our civilization".

Well the architect said that he prefers to count the versions of the matrix based on the appearance of the one meaning 6 versions, 6 ones, therefore we know that from version 1 there was a one.

On the whole seraph thing i totally agree with Fox and his take on the whole thing, also as others have said seraph has said he was once an "agent" therefore the "seraph = past one" theory doesnt work.

Hutchie

WarIock

Hutchie87 wrote:
Well the architect said that he prefers to count the versions of the matrix based on the appearance of the one meaning 6 versions, 6 ones, therefore we know that from version 1 there was a one.

The point is, in informatic lango, the version number changes when there's a big amount of change. There's some deep reformulation. That's why I say it's the 3rd, after the two failed ones. On the other hand, the passing of a cycle is called an iteration, which is why I call it the 7th iteration, or 6th in Neo's case.
By the way, we know the 1st "version" (if you insist in using the Architect's term instead of the ones we use nowadays) ended with a One. Although, every cycle begins with the One freeing the first 23 humans, which is why the Prophecy makes sense. The question is who freed the first 23 in the beggining of the first cycle. My answer, based also on the fact that, after what the One (in the following beggings) ends up going through (even if the process doesn't harm him that much, he knows too much to be safe), he's kind of a liability, is that the One isn't really the one to teach them the truth, but that memory is put into their heads.

**ShadowReapr**

Just to point out something, despite the Architect saying so, surely there have been more than 6 versions from the number of Neo's on the screens in the Architect's room? Or am I missing something?

But Seraph seems to lend towards the old Agent equivalent. Yet I always thought the gold code lent towards the Real World machines (PoN, while a decent game, is not an accurate representation (case in point, saving the exile from the Witch in the Chateau), so I'm a bit inbetween on the matter.

As for the Merv matter, it's probable he worked for the Merv at some point, for his exile into the matrix, or at least to stay there. And since the Merv's a bit of an information hotspot, Seraph's past probably got out to exiles.

As for that past, he seems to be a peace-loving guy, so it's probable he denied the supremacist ideals of the Seraphims. Hence wingless, fall from grace, etc etc.

WarIock

ShadowReapr wrote:
Just to point out something, despite the Architect saying so, surely there have been more than 6 versions from the number of Neo's on the screens in the Architect's room? Or am I missing something?

Only that they never said the Neos on the screens were the past Ones. My interpretation is that those are some of the reactions the Architect expected from Neo at those times. It makes sense, because, not understanding choice, he can only figure out the options (and even then, only some), but not figure out which one Neo will use.
Besides, as I've said, it'd be extremely silly if every past One looked like Neo.

But Seraph seems to lend towards the old Agent equivalent. Yet I always thought the gold code lent towards the Real World machines (PoN, while a decent game, is not an accurate representation (case in point, saving the exile from the Witch in the Chateau), so I'm a bit inbetween on the matter.

I agree that we can't figure out the gold code through PoN, it's not meant to be cannon, but to be cool.
I personally lean towards the theory that the gold code didn't demonstrate something about the program but something about what he was doing. In the Reloaded scene where we see the gold code, we also see that the code around Seraph seems to be converging towards him, instead of flowing vertically as it does most times. So I think maybe he was doing some kind of concentration ritual of some sorts that affected the Matrix around him. Or just feeling the Matrix around him, making the information head in his direction.

**ShadowReapr**

Both excellent points, especially the latter, I didn't think about that (plus, what with some of the Akido-based buffs in-game, it's a big possibility).

Manolius

WarIock wrote:

we also see that the code around Seraph seems to be converging towards him, instead of flowing vertically as it does most times.

He was data mining for god sake!!!

hehehe but seriously, people you are confused.There wasn't a one in the first matrix. Let me clarify why.

The architect says the first matrix was pefect, and a complete failure because nobody accepted it because it was to perfect for us. The second one was a failure aswell.

"it was then when a program, designed to study the human psyque (don't know if i spelled it right) came up with an answer. "
He says that the anser the oracle came with, made 99% of the humans accept the matrix. However, the remaining 1% did not accept it, and those excaped the matrix, stayed in zion, and "created" (to say it someway) the prophecy and the cycle itself aka: The one.

So you see, it can't be till the oracle came with the answer that the "ones" started to exist as a sytem flaw.

**ShadowReapr**

I'm not sure the One is the error itself so much as the solution to the error.

And the intention of the Oracle was to prevent the loss of all the lives when the system crashed upon itself, because the Architect couldn't think outside the box, he couldn't think of sabotaging the effeciency of the Matrix in order to make it an cycle - smarter, but not possible for his AI to comprehend.

WarIock

ShadowReapr wrote:
I'm not sure the One is the error itself so much as the solution to the error.

The way I see it, he's both. Or, if you will, neither. The calculations of the Matrix don't take human choice into account, producing remainders. From that POV, the remainders are the errors. Although, the errors converge into a sum, which in turn converges into a human, aka the One aka the Anomaly. That human must be brought into the Source so his code can be extracted, the Matrix's source code reinserted and the Matrix can be reset back to its original form (or something close to it). So, to be exact, this process (extraction, reinsertion and reboot) is the solution. Although, from a broader POV, the Anomaly IS the error (due to being the result of the error process), but also the solution (ie. the way out from the problems caused by the error).

Btw, Manolius, when did we say anything about the One in the first Matrix?

**Operative_xAJx**

Now this is only rumor and piece that I have put together myself, So if there are irregularities I appologise. Plus the fact is it 05:16 am here lol

Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity? OK some time passes. Seraph is then given a purpose - the right hand of The Merovingian. His protector so to speak. We know this because of Bio's on MxO when he is seen every so oftern. I believe that Seraph deviated one time (Maybe a visit to The Oracle?) and was forced to spend an X amount of time in The Blackwood Prison Construct. He was one of the 1st to escape from this prison contruct so I have been informed (by sources on Recursion server) and he sought out The Oracle.

His Purpose : To protect what matter most. The Oracle. He is a programme yes, another part of control. I read in this post the 1st time we see Seraph was in The Matrix Reloaded. Please remember we have Enter The Matrix aswell to go on - as they both accompany each other. His best way to know if someone is lying about there identity is to fight. "You do not know someone until you fight them".

As for the Yellow code theory. I read in a previous post by Ghats that he didnt understand why the Sentinel passed through Neo when they were heading to the Machine City. Many theories suggest the soul of the machine. This could be the case in Seraph. Just theorizing here, but maybe there is a soul inside the machine.

The question that has always got me is he fought Ballad in Enter The Matrix. Did The Oracle tell Ballad of the fate he had, and that of his crewmate Bane? other theories about Seraph and the Seraphic Angels being previous versions of Agent control in The Matrix have also been rumored and discussed.

/discuss further please SMILEY

WarIock

xAJx wrote:
Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity?

The problem was actually lack of choice. Smith says that the perfect Matrix failed because our primitive cerebrums kept awaking us. The Architect hints that the problem with the first two Matrixes was the same - the lack of choice.

The question that has always got me is he fought Ballad in Enter The Matrix. Did The Oracle tell Ballad of the fate he had, and that of his crewmate Bane?

He fought Ballard because his crew was the one who stayed behind to await contact of the Oracle. During that time, Ballard was contacted but, due to the events in Reloaded and Revolutions, he had to go through Seraph to reach the Oracle. As to why he wasn't told, there are three possibilities I see: he just went in there to get the message and didn't talk to her (we don't quite know if he was a believer); she didn't know about it, because she couldn't see past a particular choice; she chose not to tell them (either because they weren't ready for it or because she knew it had to happen). I would personally believe in the second, since there were some pretty weird stuff going on there.

**ShadowReapr**

xAJx wrote:
Now this is only rumor and piece that I have put together myself, So if there are irregularities I appologise. Plus the fact is it 05:16 am here lol

Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity? OK some time passes. Seraph is then given a purpose - the right hand of The Merovingian. His protector so to speak. We know this because of Bio's on MxO when he is seen every so oftern. I believe that Seraph deviated one time (Maybe a visit to The Oracle?) and was forced to spend an X amount of time in The Blackwood Prison Construct. He was one of the 1st to escape from this prison contruct so I have been informed (by sources on Recursion server) and he sought out The Oracle.

That's a nice thought, actually. Perhaps he was sent to eliminate the Oracle, realised she mattered most, and she told him how to escape? After all, the Merv has always been after the Oracle.

**Operative_xAJx**

Ok im back and full of life after lots of sleep lol

Thanks for the coments you made. I replayed the part where Ballad fought Seraph. This was after Bane had the Smith thing going on. Although I think I agree with you guys on this one, that The Oracle held that information back - because Ballad played a big part in the Power Plant Mission, or am I getting my things mixed up?

I bought up The Merovingian being the irregularity, because it seemed to fit at the time. Having survived other "Ones" so to speak.

Xalin

Seraph was a seraphim.

WarIock

xAJx wrote:
Thanks for the coments you made. I replayed the part where Ballad fought Seraph. This was after Bane had the Smith thing going on. Although I think I agree with you guys on this one, that The Oracle held that information back - because Ballad played a big part in the Power Plant Mission, or am I getting my things mixed up?

You're getting a bit mixed up, yes. Ballard and his crew stayed behind after the meeting that we see at the beggining of Reloaded. After a while, they get contacted by Seraph, who tells them to go meet the Oracle. He goes and finds Seraph, and go through the whole "I must aporogiste" deal. After Seraph gets to know him the only way he knows how :smileywink:, they presumably meet the Oracle, who gives him a disk for Neo. When they're about to deliver that disk, the two last operatives, one of them being Bane, get chased by Smith. Bane gives the disk to the other one and tells him to go, and he gets out. And as you know, before Bane can get out, he's taken over by Smith and uploads himself into Bane's body.

So Bane/Smith happens after they meet the Oracle. And, for the record, from the possibilities I suggested, I believe the most in the Oracle genuinely not knowing, probably because she either didn't consider it or because she didn't figure Smith would go for it, ie. she didn't understand his choice (sort of like I figure was the reason as to why she didn't know Smith had taken over Sati).

Oh, and although we all know Merv probably was there by the beggining of the third Matrix, it doesn't mean he was the cause for the first Matrix's failure. I still believe it was just the lack of choice, since that's what both the Architect and Smith imply.
Also, if you read the story of Mr. Black and Dame White (two of the Neighborhood Contacts), you might get, as I did, the idea that the Merovingian and Persephone were programs from outside the Matrix (Dame White was the program Persephone replaced, and she was out. To get to the Matrix, she and Mr. Black had to work together -which in the program world means combining codes, ie. marrying- ...which leads to the thought that, since Persephone was also out, she probably needed to do the same with Merv, which would mean he was out then too).

JMac

Just some stuff my faction mates and I have been posting on our faction forums.. I thougth I would share....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph

please feel free to read up and let me know of your thoughts. This is a continuation of what I wrote regarding the Merovingian. What catches my attention is this:

Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologiae offers a description of the nature of the Seraphim:

The name "Seraphim" does not come from charity only, but from the excess of charity, expressed by the word ardor or fire. Hence Dionysius (Coel. Hier. vii) expounds the name "Seraphim" according to the properties of fire, containing an excess of heat. Now in fire we may consider three things. "First, the movement which is upwards and continuous. This signifies that they are borne inflexibly towards God. "Secondly, the active force which is "heat," which is not found in fire simply, but exists with a certain sharpness, as being of most penetrating action, and reaching even to the smallest things, and as it were, with superabundant fervor; whereby is signified the action of these angels, exercised powerfully upon those who are subject to them, rousing them to a like fervor, and cleansing them wholly by their heat. "Thirdly we consider in fire the quality of clarity, or brightness; which signifies that these angels have in themselves an inextinguishable light, and that they also perfectly enlighten others."

Also - a medieval writer called Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite included seraphs in his "Celestial Hierarchy"

It is here that the Seraphim are described as being concerned with keeping Divinity in perfect order, and not limited to chanting the trisagion'

"The name Seraphim clearly indicates their ceaseless and eternal revolution about Divine Principles, their heat and keenness, the exuberance of their intense, perpetual, tireless activity, and their elevative and energetic assimilation of those below, kindling them and firing them to their own heat, and wholly purifying them by a burning and all- consuming flame; and by the unhidden, unquenchable, changeless, radiant and enlightening power, dispelling and destroying the shadows of darkness"

Interesting stuff

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I have resigned to thinking about names of characters in the Matrix in a different light. The names we know in the Matrix are different from our everyday names, ie Neo's alias Thomas Anderson, in that the names we know in the Matrix are chosen by the individual, thus defining that person to an extent.

Neo, for example, stood for a "new" era or a new pattern in the Matrix. He was the new anomoly. Morpheus stood for "change" as he led the Zionists who believed that the struggle would come to and end, thus "changing" life as they knew it. Trinity stood for a few different things, I think. I believe she stood for faith in things that cannot be easily understood. She also stood for unity between states of being, specifically representing the unity Neo would bring between the human and machine state of being.

In Seraph's case, I believe that he stood for heat as you researched, but a specific kind of heat--incandessant heat, or heat that brings light. For it was only through him that anyone could see the Oracle, or receive her advice ie "see the light". Just a thought

You could take this idea and use it for all of the Matrix characters, btw and it makes some things make more sense. It's a "literalist" pov so to speak.

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I stated in my first post to Angel's Merovingian topic that when Seraph and the others entered Club Hell, the Merv said something in French that loosely translated to "angel w/o wings". He also called Seraph Judas at one point in the conversation.

This leads me to believe that Seraph was once working with the Merv, or, while the Merv was the Architect's right hand man, Seraph was some type of Guardian program (similar to agents now) in the first matrix. Sephraim is considered the highest order of Angels in the celestrial heirchy.

And in box 4 of PB... agent looking Angels are released from the Merv's prison for us to take care of.

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I think that you are on to something Jmac. It actually does make sense that Seraph would be an "agent" of the first version of the Matrix if we accept the version that you give, which also does make sense.

What strikes me is what Seraph said to Neo before he spoke with the Oracle in the park and what he said to Neo before he fought him (things which you and Zaz quote often and I think I understand why now).

In him saying, "I protect that which matters most", I believe that he is referring to the hope of humanity symbolized by the Oracle. He is a protector of knowledge, the knowledge that humans hold to be the ultimate understanding of the meaning of our existence. In essence, I see Seraph as the essential gatekeeper of the human mind. Without him, someone such as the Merovingian would be able to understand humans' true essence which is "held" in the Eyes of the Oracle (this might be the reason he desired the Eyes of the Oracle in his proposed trade with Trinity)

He also said, "You don't truly know someone until you fight them." I think you could expand on this and say that you don't truly know yourself until you fight about things. So in fighting Seraph, he is able to understand what you believe in and what you are fighting for. Based on this information, he will open the gates (back doors for instance) and lead you to the Oracle to receive insight to understanding yourself and the meaning or purpose of your life.

Just some speculation....