[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Paperghost · 03/24/2007 09:16:30

cloudwolf wrote:

Oh and the Path of Neo ending was to 'razz' critics of the film sequels, not people who accept using the word Canon.

its razzing anyone that takes it too seriously, from "oh god these films are the worst and i must complain to jesus" critics, to the fans that took things waaaaaaaay too seriously. i mean, wouldn't the people who'd get so worked up over "canon" in a game they're not even playing be classed as "critics" of some description anyway?

i remember when the game was about to come out and the real hardcore matrix nerds, the kind that end up next to star trek fans at conventions and would stab you in the face if you dared suggest that revolutions kind of sucked, were working themselves into a matrix nerd rampage, posting wild eyed crazy post after wild eyed crazy post about how "all would be revealed", "neo would return", how the game end would justify the faith of all those who defended both sequels in terms of philosophy and execution with the greatest ending to a game of all time - heck, i think some of them were fully expecting neo himself to float out of their TVs and turn them into the architect or something. they just got worse and worse as the game got closer. i'm sure people out there experienced the kind of thing i'm talking about.

and then......

.......and then..........

...................and then.....................

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

oh, how i lolled. to this day, i can pinpoint the exact moment in that ending when a thousand angry nerds had their rage go into orbit and their heads simultaneously explode.

(32 seconds)

**Tseng.**

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

**PBlade** · 03/24/2007 09:38:44

cloudwolf wrote:

Well i just shed a silent tear for those potential subscribers lost due to stubborn-ness around a personal timestamp. Past, present and apparently future.

I'm done.

If people think the Mx story has been bastardised by MxO, they don't need to look at this to make up their minds. Fun events like this draw them in, not push them away.

I understand your concern from a certain, rather extreme angle, mate, but this is a lot more of a molehill than the mountain you've created.

**DevilsArms**

cloudwolf wrote:

Well i just shed a silent tear for those potential subscribers lost due to stubborn-ness around a personal timestamp. Past, present and apparently future.

I'm done.

Its just a game cloud, what about path of neo with the ant people? and with the giant smith. If you don't like the way the story is going then either 1: Don't consider this an continue of the story, 2: Write your own. Or better both

I would like to see what you could up with because i am *CENSORED* sure its nothing compared to what the mxo team is doing. Don't like where mxo is going? Get over it or get out

God *CENSORED* n00b

**Croesis**

Personally, a time stamp on event just shows me the chronological order of happenings within the game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that party events like this one and other event's, are made for the enjoyment of the gamer rather than continuation of "canon" storyline! In the end you have to think of it as: Did the event chronicled move the current storyline forward at all? Was there any mention of the current storyline? No? Just a fun event where players could enjoy themselves.

Not everything has to have a point......

Paperghost

DevilsArms wrote:

cloudwolf wrote:

Its just a game cloud, what about path of neo with the ant people?

Don't forget the bit where Neo and Seraph are fighting in the cinema while the fight from the film plays onscreen and the heckler in the audience is yelling at them to get out of the way and also ribbing the trilogy itself.

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

**FrozenFyre**

OK, I know CloudWolf has probably been a bit more outspoken on this issue than is absolutely necessary, but I think people should get off his back a bit, especially when comparing MxO to PoN, which I don't think works!

PoN is clearly 'just a game' it's clear from the start that this is the case, there are bits of the game I would consider to be canon, or at least parts that could make sense as part of the storyline, but other parts are clearly "just a game" Because the game roughly follows the story, yet stakes no claim at being "official" I'm free to make this choice as I chose and include whatever into my 'personal canon'

MxO is different, why? Because it is a continuation of the Matrix storyline, not an alternate telling of part of what's already there. People play MxO because it's a chance to be a part of the Matrix world, the "official" Matrix world, and because we can see how the story progresses, the "official" Matrix story that is, therefore we have a right to expect a form of continuity in the game...which is largely there.

Personally I'm not too bothered about this, it's clear that this event was just for fun, be it canon or otherwise - and until someone decides to make an "official storyline" book or whatever I guess it is effectively up to us which bits to keep and what to throw away.

However, even if he is a bit more forward than necessary, Cloudwolf is still well within his rights to ask for clarification on what is "canon2 or whatever.

**cloudwolf** · 03/24/2007 10:05:59

Tseng. wrote:

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

I understand the explaination, it's the circumstance i find unbelievable. Like the things effy says and the fact the machines would allow a train RSI manipulation thing to dance around for hours without any action. Circumstance and relevance is what makes things canonical to me, not explainations. Oh and on a random note, no, i don't see the RSI pills as canon either, merely another game convention. Heck, I continue to hope they never get used in the official story.

Papergh0st wrote:

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

You can kill that guy? =P

But meh, most people arn't getting the points im trying to get across and are instead warping them to present me as some sort of, oh how i love this term (been branded several times), Canon Nazi.

Maybe the nature of this game's storyline needs to be better described on the website when the guide finally gets done.

I've made all the points i want to make to the people i want to make them to so yeah, theres no point going on, we can leave it now.

And for whats its worth FF, thanks. Oh and PB too for keeping it cool.

**ZaneZavin**

I think this event in particular would have had quite an effect on any bluepills that happened to see these creatures. It's within the character of the Effectuator to do something like this, but I would expect the Machines to be upset about it.

Paperghost

cloudwolf wrote:

You can kill that guy? =P

yeah - takes a few goes but if you nail him with the broom he shuts up and you don't see him in the seat (i think there's a cutscene after the fight where the camera pans across the seats and usually, he's in there).

**Wendigo**

cloudwolf wrote:

Tseng. wrote:

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

I understand the explaination, it's the circumstance i find unbelievable. Like the things effy says and the fact the machines would allow a train RSI manipulation thing to dance around for hours without any action. Circumstance and relevance is what makes things canonical to me, not explainations. Oh and on a random note, no, i don't see the RSI pills as canon either, merely another game convention. Heck, I continue to hope they never get used in the official story.

Papergh0st wrote:

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

You can kill that guy? =P
But meh, most people arn't getting the points im trying to get across and are instead warping them to present me as some sort of, oh how i love this term (been branded several times), Canon Nazi.
Maybe the nature of this game's storyline needs to be better described on the website when the guide finally gets done.
I've made all the points i want to make to the people i want to make them to so yeah, theres no point going on, we can leave it now.
And for whats its worth FF, thanks. Oh and PB too for keeping it cool.

OOC:
This canon argument (going all the way back to the "pew-pew" thing) is not about people's ideas of what can and can't happen in the Matrix. Such an argument would be asinine, because the Matrix is a computer simulation - ANYTHING can happen.

The heart of the issue is internal consistency. If it is perceived that an action in the game storyline, regardless of how outlandish, has appropriate repercussions and consequences in the subsequent storyline, then it fits all criteria for becoming a part of the canon storyline. This is why the arguments against "pew-pew" had little merit outside of personal taste. However if an action carries no consequences and doesn't affect the storyline to follow, the natural inclination is to separate it from the rest of the story in someway, either in the unofficial archives or just in the minds of the players.

CloudWolf, I don't think you're a canon Nazi, I think you make a lot of sense, and your best point is right up there. Seeing a dancing subway car would definitely break a bluepill's mind, making it something the machines would take immediate action on. That didn't happen, detracting from the internal consistency of the world.

What CloudWolf is asking for is a "heads-up" from Rarebit regarding where individual events fall from these two choices. Will future storyline be affected or not? Will the events depicted carry the repercussions expected in an internally consistent living simulation (e.g. the dancing subway car being killed by an Agent and ejected from the simulation)?

It's obvious that Rarebit doesn't feel the need to give such a "heads-up" simply because the events speak for themselves. I see where he's coming from to a certain extent, but I'm on the fence about this one. In any case, I think this issue has run it's course in this thread and we should get back to talking about how cool Effy is and save the canon rag for another day.

**Roukan** · 03/24/2007 10:47:01

I play a video game for fun. That one effectuator party I was at was loads of fun, and I can only guess how much fun the guys who turned into trains or terminals had.

You *CENSORED* and you *CENSORED* for live events after SOE took over, and when Rarebit does this kind of stuff, you *CENSORED* some more. If Rarebit was like a normal dev, he would have stopped having "fun" events long ago, not give rewards to players because it's 'non-canonical' or whatever, and then people would quit the game due to heavy scripted events.

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon, or getting a killshot on a machinist sneaking into a meeting and having Persephone reward me with a kiss, or a hug, or maybe even some info. We influence the story, if only that much. By showing our amusement for these kind of parties, Rarebit keeps doing them. If you have a problem with these kinds of things, I humbly ask you jack out everytime Rarebit jacks in.

Thankfully we have Rarebit who, in a respectful way I say this, is the most abnormal and fun dev I've ever talked with in ANY game or MMO.

**cloudwolf**

Roukan wrote:

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon

Me too - cept he wouldn't do a pigeon, despite my spam. lol.

Thats one of the points i raised above though. Twisting one's meaning to present falsehood.

**Roukan**

cloudwolf wrote:

Roukan wrote:

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon

Me too - cept he wouldn't do a pigeon, despite my spam. lol.
Thats one of the points i raised above though. Twisting one's meaning to present falsehood.

So you're complaining that because it's in the middle of the chapter we're in, and that Rarebit turned people into trains and the like... it shouldn't say it's in the middle of the chapter?

**cloudwolf** · 03/24/2007 11:10:27

Thats another point i wanted to touch on but refrained since i said i wouldnt go on anymore =P

I think i misunderstood the concept of the chapter tags. I always took, as they were suggested by players, to be to help with storyline archiving efforts. For reference and back searching. Not timestamping. I mean, one would think thats what the dates are for =P

Thus i took anything with a chapter stamp to imply storyline relevance ( and thus... 'canon' ).

But it seems they are in fact just for timestamps and nothing else. Something that wasn't explained to me. That isn't explained anywhere. Maybe something else for the site guide?

With this revelation i suggested a new stamp for such blatantly unrelational "non-canonical" fun events marking them as such. Like Wendigo explained quite nicely. Also, i expressed a want for the nature of the storyline to explained better for potential and current players alike in the website guide. Since the 'official-ness' of the game's events is a serious issue for potential players and the 'outside' world looking in on MxO.